Red Sox Catching

[example1]

I'm breaking out a thread from the Sox "Catcher and SS situations" thread because that one complains about the situation rather than discussing it... and each situation probably deserves its own thread (with the SS situation thread beginning and ending with Jed Lowrie).

 

My question/thought is, how are the Sox ever going to replace Tek? Even Victor Martinez struggled managing the pitching staff. Tek calls the pitches and the pitchers throw them, while Salty (and seemingly everyone else) calls the pitches and hopes it is the pitch the pitcher wants to throw. You don't see people shaking off Tek nearly as often as the other catchers, and he often pauses before flashing his sign as if he--not the pitcher--is the one with the ultimate call. Pitchers trust that if he's thought about it and calls it, that's the pitch to throw.

 

I'm not sure that skill is a matter of just training with Varitek or learning from what he does. He may just have a natural skill and/or years of experience for reading hitters, studying them, and making good decisions in the moment given that particular pitcher's stuff.

 

I think pitchers do a MUCH better job when they leave the pitch calling to the catchers and just throw what they're told to throw. Watching Beckett or Lackey or Dice-K struggle with which sign the catcher puts down is frustrating to say the least. Watching the Angels, I notice that Mike Scioscia calls a lot of the pitches from the bench. Is that ultimately going to be the answer, to have Tek calling pitches from the bench after he retires? He's clearly got leadership written all over him and it would be natural for him to be on a bench somewhere helping pitchers and catchers perfect their craft.

 

I just worry about such a veteran and experienced pitching staff with any catcher who doesn't command the respect that Tek does behind the plate. Perhaps catcher isn't the position to develop internally, unless you get one of the truly elite guys (Posey, Mauer, etc.,) to develop from within. I think Salty deserves more opportunity and think he'll be a viable option, but it could take him 5+ years to get the clout that a veteran like Tek has and maybe the Sox staff just need that veteran to feel comfortable with their catcher...

 

It seems to make a difference for some of these pitchers.

[SCM33]

I think first of all, the pitchers have to respect the catchers defensive reputation before they start worrying about what he is throwing down for signs.

 

It doesnt matter what Salty is calling for signs if the pitchers are concerned about his ability to block balls, frame pitches and throw out runners....you know...the thing that catchers are supposed to do.

 

I think this is more about their lack of confidence in him as a whole rather than their concerns about his ability to call a game.

 

I do not think Salty is the answer. Bring up one of their homegrown catchers with defensive skill which is already developed and allow Varitek to mentor him with the game calling aspect of catching.

 

Who cares if the homegrown catcher hits .180 as long as the pitchers are comfortable throwing to him and are successful. We have enough bats in the lineup to make up for the kids offensive ineptness and the arms to shut down opposing teams offenses to make up the difference if they are confident throwing to him and succeeding.

[Palodios]

Watching the Angels' date=' I notice that Mike Scioscia calls a lot of the pitches from the bench. Is that ultimately going to be the answer, to have Tek calling pitches from the bench after he retires? [/quote']

 

Do you actually have knowledge of this? Lou Merloni of WEEI emphasizes --almost every single day-- that coaches do not EVER call pitches, and that the signs they give are about how to deal with the running game and things like that. I was a little skeptical of him, so I'm just curious if you know otherwise.

 

And as far as the catching situation goes-- I think this is less about Varitek being extremely good, and more about Salty being extremely bad. Right now, I would love to see them bring up Tim Federowicz. From what I've read, he's everything I've been asking for in a catcher. Outstanding arm, very good game calling skills, zero offensive production. I've heard reports that he's getting priority over Lavarnway/Exposito as far as internal options, and I'd love to see the Sox throw out some base-runners for once.

 

 

I think first of all, the pitchers have to respect the catchers defensive reputation before they start worrying about what he is throwing down for signs.

 

It doesnt matter what Salty is calling for signs if the pitchers are concerned about his ability to block balls, frame pitches and throw out runners....you know...the thing that catchers are supposed to do.

 

I agree with this 100%. When a catcher is so scared of his own arm that he lobs throws to the pitcher, it cannot help the pitchers be confident in him.

[BSN07]

Do you actually have knowledge of this? Lou Merloni of WEEI emphasizes --almost every single day-- that coaches do not EVER call pitches, and that the signs they give are about how to deal with the running game and things like that. I was a little skeptical of him, so I'm just curious if you know otherwise.

 

And as far as the catching situation goes-- I think this is less about Varitek being extremely good, and more about Salty being extremely bad. Right now, I would love to see them bring up Tim Federowicz. From what I've read, he's everything I've been asking for in a catcher. Outstanding arm, very good game calling skills, zero offensive production. I've heard reports that he's getting priority over Lavarnway/Exposito as far as internal options, and I'd love to see the Sox throw out some base-runners for once.

 

 

 

 

I agree with this 100%. When a catcher is so scared of his own arm that he lobs throws to the pitcher, it cannot help the pitchers be confident in him.

 

I've heard commentators numerous times talk about the fact that Scioscia calls the pitches during the game. But I admit I could be wrong

 

As far as Salt goes, he's one of those guys I really wanted to see work out and although I think it's a bit early to cut him off completely, I will say he can be frustrating to watch. And I can see why some people want to see a replacement.

 

Ex1, I was thinking the same thing about Tek. Maybe it would be best to let him call the game from the bench. At least try it out for a bit and see how it goes. Maybe taking that off Salty's plate may help him focus on the other aspects of his game.

[example1]

Do you actually have knowledge of this? Lou Merloni of WEEI emphasizes --almost every single day-- that coaches do not EVER call pitches, and that the signs they give are about how to deal with the running game and things like that. I was a little skeptical of him, so I'm just curious if you know otherwise.

 

I do not have knowledge of this, other than watching Conger look over before every pitch for the period of the game that I was paying attention. I was suprised because even though he's young, I thought Conger would call his own game. Maybe he was and it was all about situational stuff, but they showed Scoscia doing some signs and then clapping his hands and giving an enthusiastic "come on now!" kind of gesture similar to what a catcher does when he calls an important pitch and emphasizes that it's a big one for the pitcher to nail... if that makes sense.

[BornToRun]

I say sign Molina and send Salty to AAA for some more work, he obviously needs it and I don't wanna give up on him yet. The guy has skills, banged his teacher in high school after all.

[SoxSport]

Salty caught Lackey today, and that should be a big boost for him.

[italstallianion]

I wasn't aware that we had catching to complain about.

[BSN07]

As maddening as Salty can be to watch, they really need to just let him keep playing and see if he finds his groove. The internal options are not ready and if they go that route it's more of trying to catch lightning in a bottle then a sure upgrade. And from the sounds of things it doesn't appear to be a better option via trade or FA. Bengie Molina is intriguing. But I think they should give at least until the beginning of July. If it's not looking good then, they will have a month to complete something. If there is anyone available that is.

[DirtDog]

Those who say the Red Sox need to find options elsewhere at this point just don't udnerstand what they would be getting into. Trying to find a catcher from another team or gof forbid from our system would be a big mistake. In essense you'd be taking 3 steps back to take 1 step forward. Just would not make any sense. Give Salty another couple months.

[Dojji]

The pitchers need to suck it up.

 

Salty is what we have. They might feel better about Tek, but if they use that as a crutch or an excuse not to want to pitch to Salty, that's a problem with the pitchers, not with the young catcher. They have to accept that Tek is done and make the best of Saltalamacchia, in the hopes that he'll learn this stuff himself.

[Ravenous916]

just proves over and over again, tek is one of the best game callers in the game. Unbelievable how things have turned around now that he has caught more often. Someone has to take it over eventually. At least salty is willing to learn. There is no way they could ever let Tek leave the organization though. His brain is much too valuable, even if his stick is way past its prime.

[a700hitter]

Expecting Salty to be able to handle the job on a team with a $175 Million payroll was just foolish. It was extremely poor judgment.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

The pitchers need to suck it up.

 

Salty is what we have. They might feel better about Tek, but if they use that as a crutch or an excuse not to want to pitch to Salty, that's a problem with the pitchers, not with the young catcher. They have to accept that Tek is done and make the best of Saltalamacchia, in the hopes that he'll learn this stuff himself.

 

Seriously this.

 

 

Saltalamacchia has caught some fine games recently. The problems the pitching had in the beginning were their own problems, not Salty's. This game calling crap is ridiculously overrated and getting annoying to hear over and over again. His only problem really is throwing, and that can change, he's only 25. How does anyone expect a 25 year old to come and be some amazing catcher? Varitek didn't even reach the majors until that age and wasn't even good until a few years after that. Things will change and I bet by the end of the year no one will be bitching about Salty.

[Dojji]

Offer Tek a contract extension that transitions him into the coaching staff, and gives the team the option to make a bench coach and heir apparent out of him. Tito won't last forever, his health will eventually force him to retire. Tek is really very good potential manager material and I'd like to see him do it for Boston. And that way he'll still be around to mentor Salty.

[a700hitter]

Seriously this.

 

 

Saltalamacchia has caught some fine games recently. The problems the pitching had in the beginning were their own problems, not Salty's. This game calling crap is ridiculously overrated and getting annoying to hear over and over again. His only problem really is throwing, and that can change, he's only 25. How does anyone expect a 25 year old to come and be some amazing catcher? Varitek didn't even reach the majors until that age and wasn't even good until a few years after that. Things will change and I bet by the end of the year no one will be bitching about Salty.

Many good and great pitchers have had their personal catchers. Carlton had McCarver. Maddux had anyone other than Javy Lopez. More than one Yankee pitcher throughout the years did not want to throw to Posada. There must be something to it.

 

All I know is that each of Varitek's three extended DL stints during his career coincided with collapses by our starting pitching. You can attribute lots of other factors to those collapses, but each of them started the day Tek hit the DL. One time when Pedro was on the DL, he stated that the staff fell apart when Tek went down. If that's what Pedro thought, it is good enough for me.

 

Salty is a disaster on every front. He can't be salvaged or mentored to become useful. They need to move on from him quickly.

[Palodios]

Salty is a disaster on every front. He can't be salvaged or mentored to become useful. They need to move on from him quickly.

 

This, a million times this. I'd like to consider myself one of the more optimistic posters around here, and look at the potential there is in players, but this is getting ridiculous.

 

1) He is good at nothing. I hesitate to call him a "zero tool player" but he seems to be close. No power, can't block pitches, has no arm, can't call a good game, no speed.

 

2) His minor league stats aren't anything special. He's about a .250 BAA/ .780 OPS hitter in AA/AAA. Best case scenario, he might end up hitting 10-15 HR a year, and hold a .750 OPS. Is a that really worth the serious defensive liability he is right now? Maybe. But how many months of black hole offense/defense is it going to take to get him there?

 

I'm weighing risks/rewards, and I just don't see it. If we're going with a catcher who is completely worthless defensively, why not see what it'll take to get Doumit from Pittsburgh?

[a700hitter]

This, a million times this. I'd like to consider myself one of the more optimistic posters around here, and look at the potential there is in players, but this is getting ridiculous.

 

1) He is good at nothing. I hesitate to call him a "zero tool player" but he seems to be close. No power, can't block pitches, has no arm, can't call a good game, no speed.

 

2) His minor league stats aren't anything special. He's about a .250 BAA/ .780 OPS hitter in AA/AAA. Best case scenario, he might end up hitting 10-15 HR a year, and hold a .750 OPS. Is a that really worth the serious defensive liability he is right now? Maybe. But how many months of black hole offense/defense is it going to take to get him there?

 

I'm weighing risks/rewards, and I just don't see it. If we're going with a catcher who is completely worthless defensively, why not see what it'll take to get Doumit from Pittsburgh?

He also seems to be brainless on top of everything else.

[RedSoxFaithful]

This, a million times this. I'd like to consider myself one of the more optimistic posters around here, and look at the potential there is in players, but this is getting ridiculous.

 

1) He is good at nothing. I hesitate to call him a "zero tool player" but he seems to be close. No power, can't block pitches, has no arm, can't call a good game, no speed.

 

2) His minor league stats aren't anything special. He's about a .250 BAA/ .780 OPS hitter in AA/AAA. Best case scenario, he might end up hitting 10-15 HR a year, and hold a .750 OPS. Is a that really worth the serious defensive liability he is right now? Maybe. But how many months of black hole offense/defense is it going to take to get him there?

 

I'm weighing risks/rewards, and I just don't see it. If we're going with a catcher who is completely worthless defensively, why not see what it'll take to get Doumit from Pittsburgh?

 

I think once our lineup really clicks and does what it's supposed to do then I am fine with Tek catching and hitting at a .150 clip because of how he handels the staff and calls a game. I think we could move on from Salty rather quickly, even though it seems like Francona likes him, and be fine with Tek and calling up someone from AAA.

[DirtDog]

I still say give him time. The pitchers like him. Varitek likes him.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think once our lineup really clicks and does what it's supposed to do then I am fine with Tek catching and hitting at a .150 clip because of how he handels the staff and calls a game. I think we could move on from Salty rather quickly' date=' even though it seems like Francona likes him, and be fine with Tek and calling up someone from AAA.[/quote']

 

If we try to catch Tek more than 2x a rotation, he'll be on the DL by June 1st. He's 39 years old, and Lackey and Lester do just fine with Salty. Salty will be fine. It takes a catcher some time to get on the same page with the pitchers, regardless of how much work he did in the offseason. Think about when you start dating a new person, and how long it takes for you to get to know their routine and their preferences. Well that's what Salty is doing right now, and Lackey has said they're already starting to get to know each other better. Salty will catch Buch, Lester, and Lackey while Tek catches Beckett and DiceK. The way the rotation is set up right now, it will go Salty - Tek - Salty - Tek - Salty, which is perfect because there will rarely be a day game following a night game in which a catcher has to go back to back.

 

Give it time. Salty will get better. Everyone wanted Pedroia out in 2007, and look what we got. Everyone wanted Ortiz out in 2009 and 2010, and look what we got. Everyone wanted DiceK out after his 2nd start this year, and look at his last 2 starts. Crawford is having the worst month of his life, and if we didn't know what kind of a player he was, look at what we'd be giving up. Give it time.

[a700hitter]

If we try to catch Tek more than 2x a rotation, he'll be on the DL by June 1st. He's 39 years old, and Lackey and Lester do just fine with Salty. Salty will be fine. It takes a catcher some time to get on the same page with the pitchers, regardless of how much work he did in the offseason. Think about when you start dating a new person, and how long it takes for you to get to know their routine and their preferences. Well that's what Salty is doing right now, and Lackey has said they're already starting to get to know each other better. Salty will catch Buch, Lester, and Lackey while Tek catches Beckett and DiceK. The way the rotation is set up right now, it will go Salty - Tek - Salty - Tek - Salty, which is perfect because there will rarely be a day game following a night game in which a catcher has to go back to back.

 

Give it time. Salty will get better. Everyone wanted Pedroia out in 2007, and look what we got. Everyone wanted Ortiz out in 2009 and 2010, and look what we got. Everyone wanted DiceK out after his 2nd start this year, and look at his last 2 starts. Crawford is having the worst month of his life, and if we didn't know what kind of a player he was, look at what we'd be giving up. Give it time.

You can't compare Salty to the situation with Crawford or Dice K or 2009/2010 Ortiz. They are all proven ML performers. Salty is not. Other than the fact that he is large, I don't think he has any major tools. Also, he has terrible instincts. I don't think you can teach or learn that. We might survove the season with him at catcher, but why take the chance if there are better alternatives.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You can't compare Salty to the situation with Crawford or Dice K or 2009/2010 Ortiz. They are all proven ML performers. Salty is not. Other than the fact that he is large' date=' I don't think he has any major tools. Also, he has terrible instincts. I don't think you can teach or learn that. We might survove the season with him at catcher, but why take the chance if there are better alternatives.[/quote']

 

When Varitek came up and started playing in 98, he hit .237 in April, allowed 18 passed balls in 75 games, had a FLD% of .988,. and had a CS% of 28%.

 

Right now, Salty is hitting .186 (.286 in last 4 games), he's allowed 3 passed balls in 14 games, which would be 16 passed balls in 75 games, he's got a .989 FLD%, and he's got a CS% of 26%.

 

And yes. I know that some of those CS were on the pitcher for Salty, but the same thing goes for Varitek in 98.

 

Is that a better comparison for you? I mean it's ridiculous and insane to judge a guy after 14 games. He's virtually the exact same as Varitek was in his first season here, and if he had 2 more hits he'd be hitting with virtually the same average as Tek did in his first April. And let's be honest. If we're going to break in a catcher, is there a better time to do it than right now, with this line up, and this pitching staff throwing as well as they are?

[Palodios]

Give it time. Salty will get better. Everyone wanted Pedroia out in 2007' date=' and look what we got. Everyone wanted Ortiz out in 2009 and 2010, and look what we got. Everyone wanted DiceK out after his 2nd start this year, and look at his last 2 starts. Crawford is having the worst month of his life, and if we didn't know what kind of a player he was, look at what we'd be giving up. Give it time.[/quote']

 

This is the kind of mentality that frustrates me. I have heard the Pedroia comparison multiple times, but this is not the same situation. Pedroia had two responsibilities-- offense and defense. Defense doesn't generally change dramatically when being called up, and he had a .380 OBP in the minors with very good tools.Salty has three responsibilities, the third being handling pitching. Which of those three does he do well? When has Salty shown any sort of elite potential in his minor league stats?

 

 

I'm more and more intrigued by Doumit. He costs 5 million a year, will spend a good deal of time sitting on Pittsburgh's bench soon, and won't be there in 2012 so he has to be readily available for scraps. His defense simply can't be any worse than Salty's, and his offensive line--.340 OBP/.750 OPS-is roughly Salty's ceiling.

[SoxFanForsyth]

This is the kind of mentality that frustrates me. I have heard the Pedroia comparison multiple times, but this is not the same situation. Pedroia had two responsibilities-- offense and defense. Defense doesn't generally change dramatically when being called up, and he had a .380 OBP in the minors with very good tools.Salty has three responsibilities, the third being handling pitching. Which of those three does he do well? When has Salty shown any sort of elite potential in his minor league stats?

 

 

I'm more and more intrigued by Doumit. He costs 5 million a year, will spend a good deal of time sitting on Pittsburgh's bench soon, and won't be there in 2012 so he has to be readily available for scraps. His defense simply can't be any worse than Salty's, and his offensive line--.340 OBP/.750 OPS-is roughly Salty's ceiling.

 

I guess I just think it's absurd to judge a player after 14 games on a new team, with a new pitching staff. It takes a lot of time to adapt to a new staff and learn each pitchers strengths and weaknesses. And it's not like Salty was calling for pitches right down the cock. It's not his fault that he called a curveball and Lackey threw it down broadway and it got smoked. I feel like everyone looks at Salty and sees his first few starts and just hate him for them, yet in his last 4 starts, Lackey has allowed 1 ER and Lester hasn't allowed an ER. It's not Salty's fault that Oki came in at Oakland and blew the game open. Lackey threw a compete gem in Oakland. And Anaheim. Lester threw a hell of a game vs TOR and @LAA.

 

The last 4 games that Salty has caught, the pitchers have thrown to the tune of a 2.25 ERA and Salty has hit .286 with a .333 OBP and 3 RBI. Why is this being ignored?

[a700hitter]

When Varitek came up and started playing in 98, he hit .237 in April, allowed 18 passed balls in 75 games, had a FLD% of .988,. and had a CS% of 28%.

 

Right now, Salty is hitting .186 (.286 in last 4 games), he's allowed 3 passed balls in 14 games, which would be 16 passed balls in 75 games, he's got a .989 FLD%, and he's got a CS% of 26%.

 

And yes. I know that some of those CS were on the pitcher for Salty, but the same thing goes for Varitek in 98.

 

Is that a better comparison for you? I mean it's ridiculous and insane to judge a guy after 14 games. He's virtually the exact same as Varitek was in his first season here, and if he had 2 more hits he'd be hitting with virtually the same average as Tek did in his first April. And let's be honest. If we're going to break in a catcher, is there a better time to do it than right now, with this line up, and this pitching staff throwing as well as they are?

Varitek was far superior defensively, regardless of stats. He had better tools behind the plate. He was just a better all around athlete.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Varitek was far superior defensively' date=' regardless of stats. He had better tools behind the plate. He was just a better all around athlete.[/quote']

 

I mean honestly how can you make that judgement after 14 games? I'm not saying Salty is going to turn into the catcher of the future, all I'm saying is lets at least give the guy until June to see what he's got. If we axed every player for a poor start, half of our team wouldn't be here.

[MJantomaso]

This is the kind of mentality that frustrates me. I have heard the Pedroia comparison multiple times, but this is not the same situation. Pedroia had two responsibilities-- offense and defense. Defense doesn't generally change dramatically when being called up, and he had a .380 OBP in the minors with very good tools.Salty has three responsibilities, the third being handling pitching. Which of those three does he do well? When has Salty shown any sort of elite potential in his minor league stats?

 

 

I'm more and more intrigued by Doumit. He costs 5 million a year, will spend a good deal of time sitting on Pittsburgh's bench soon, and won't be there in 2012 so he has to be readily available for scraps. His defense simply can't be any worse than Salty's, and his offensive line--.340 OBP/.750 OPS-is roughly Salty's ceiling.

 

Doumit would be a great fit for Boston. A switch hitting catcher with power. I can only imagine what kind of numbers he would put up with some protection unlike what he has in Pitt. I also love Miguel Montero. The Sox tried to go after him in '09 but settled for josh bard. Montero tore it up last year and is on a tear right now. Only thing about montero is that he would add another lefty bat in our lineup.

[italstallianion]

Doumit would be a great fit for Boston. A switch hitting catcher with power. I can only imagine what kind of numbers he would put up with some protection unlike what he has in Pitt. I also love Miguel Montero. The Sox tried to go after him in '09 but settled for josh bard. Montero tore it up last year and is on a tear right now. Only thing about montero is that he would add another lefty bat in our lineup.

 

 

As a DH maybe.

[Palodios]

The last 4 games that Salty has caught' date=' the pitchers have thrown to the tune of a 2.25 ERA and Salty has hit .286 with a .333 OBP and 3 RBI. Why is this being ignored?[/quote']

 

Lester and Buchholz were both in the top 5 of AL starters last year, and Lackey is motivated like fire right now. I can fully admit to over-relying on catcher ERA, but can you really say Salty is good at calling a game? I don't like what I'm seeing from him, in any part of his game, and I'm not seeing any scouting reports, minor league numbers or anything that really changes my opinion. What are you and Theo seeing that I'm not?