The "Unofficial Pre- Hot Stove (2010)" thread.

[a700hitter]

I apologize for the vulgar turn of phrase. You seem to wish the Sox adopt the Yankees way of spending money BUT IT'S JUST NOT POSSIBLE

Wrong again. I am just discussing the FO performance. They have also been outperformed by the Rays IMO and they don't have anywhere near the spending power of the Sox. It's not the spending power that concerns me. I don't think they have used their resources as well as the Yankees or the Rays in the last few years.

[a700hitter]

so you're saying that if the team didn't have all these injuries we would have made the playoffs but you still think it's the front office's fault for not putting a good enough team together?

Yes, because if they had put together a good bullpen, they would have made the playoffs despite the injuries. The injuries together with the terrible bullpen were insurmountable. If we have one without the other, they go to the playoffs. They are not responsible for injuries, but they are responsible for the bullpen. If you disagree, then they can have an easy off season and just wait for the players to get healthy without making any moves and they should be fine in 2011.

[BSN07]

Zimbalist estimated that the Sox might gain no more than $3 million a year by cashing in on the Japanese icon because they would be required under major league rules to equally distribute the vast majority of their earnings related to the merchandising of Matsuzaka with the 29 other teams.

 

Just to put that out there.

 

I'm fine with the Dice-K. He's a serviceable #4-5 SP. He's maddening to watch sometimes and if they traded him I wouldn't cry. But I don't believe he is an all out bust. My opinion for awhile is that he is a NL pitcher grinding through the AL. Put him in the NL and I would wager he would be an upper part of the rotation starter. Kei Igawa is a bust.

[a700hitter]

Show me the posts where you foresaw the rapid decline of Okajima' date=' Delcarmen, and to a lesser extent Ramirez. Most teams would kill for a Pap/Bard/Okajima/Delcarmen/Ramirez bullpen before the season started.[/quote']My mother had a doctor that misdiagnosed her kidney problems. By the time it was discovered it was too late. That doctor didn't do a good job IMO. Should I have made the diagnosis? How should I know if Oki, MDC and Ramon Ramirez are going to stink. Do I observe their bullpen sessions, have access to their medical reports and so forth? The FO gets paid to pick up on such things. It's their job and they have doctors and coaches who work with these guys every day. I had just assumed that the FO was better at this than me. If they are going to be judged against me, maybe I should apply for a job with the Sox.

[BSN07]

Wrong again. I am just discussing the FO performance. They have also been outperformed by the Rays IMO and they don't have anywhere near the spending power of the Sox. It's not the spending power that concerns me. I don't think they have used their resources as well as the Yankees or the Rays in the last few years.

 

The Rays roster is deep with talent because they were picking at the top of the draft for many consecutive years. And right now those players are panning out. They don't have any huge FA failures because they can't afford to take the risk. The Red Sox like the Yankees have deep wallets are able to role the dice more often. The Rays ate it with Pat Burrell. Which was their one big $ addition after their WS run.The thing the Rays have really only done better with is trades. they make great trades.

[a700hitter]

Just to put that out there.

 

Kei Igawa is a bust.

But the Yankees get the same $3 million that the Red Sox get. We paid the posting fee for no additional income stream. If some other team won the bid, we'd still be getting the $3 million/year.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Yes' date=' because if they had put together a good bullpen, they would have made the playoffs despite the injuries.[/quote']

 

i guess we agree to disagree on that one

[Yaz Sideburn]

My mother had a doctor that misdiagnosed her kidney problems. By the time it was discovered it was too late. That doctor didn't do a good job IMO. Should I have made the diagnosis? How should I know if Oki' date=' MDC and Ramon Ramirez are going to stink. Do I observe their bullpen sessions, have access to their medical reports and so forth? The FO gets paid to pick up on such things. It's their job and they have doctors and coaches who work with these guys every day. I had just assumed that the FO was better at this than me. If they are going to be judged against me, maybe I should apply for a job with the Sox.[/quote']

 

baseball isn't a science, it's unpredictable. there's no magical mathematical forumala that they could have crunched that would have foretold okajima, manny delcarmen and ramon ramirez all falling apart this year

[a700hitter]

The Rays roster is deep with talent because they were picking at the top of the draft for many consecutive years. And right now those players are panning out. They don't have any huge FA failures because they can't afford to take the risk. The Red Sox like the Yankees have deep wallets are able to role the dice more often. The Rays ate it with Pat Burrell. Which was their one big $ addition after their WS run.The thing the Rays have really only done better with is trades. they make great trades.

This is the kind of discussion that I was hoping to get. It's obvious that they have been doing some things better than the Sox, because they have finished better than us in 2 of the last 3 seasons. They have a winning regular season record against of us during that period too. They didn't get there just on luck or because of our bad luck.

[a700hitter]

i guess we agree to disagree on that one

So, then we don't need to upgrade the bullpen for next season since our guys will all be healthy?

[Yaz Sideburn]

But the Yankees get the same $3 million that the Red Sox get. We paid the posting fee for no additional income stream. If some other team won the bid' date=' we'd still be getting the $3 million/year.[/quote']

 

that's not completely true. i imagine the red sox made a butt load off of the japanese sign in fenway park alone. it's estimated that it costs $300,000 to have a sign behind home plate for half an inning at fenway. imagine how much it costs for a year worth of advertising. selling red sox merchandise in japan isn't the only way the red sox have of making money off of the japanese market

[Yaz Sideburn]

So' date=' then we don't need to upgrade the bullpen for next season since our guys will all be healthy?[/quote']

 

 

wow, you flat out pulled that one out of your ass. nothing i said at all resembled that sentiment

[BSN07]

that's not completely true. i imagine the red sox made a butt load off of the japanese sign in fenway park alone. it's estimated that it costs $300' date='000 to have a sign behind home plate for half an inning at fenway. imagine how much it costs for a year worth of advertising. selling red sox merchandise in japan isn't the only way the red sox have of making money off of the japanese market[/quote']

 

Well that paragraph I posted was about merchandising off of Dice-K. a700 asked how much the team was making off hats in Japan

 

I'm sure they make more with advertising and things that don't have to be shared with the other 29 teams.

[a700hitter]

that's not completely true. i imagine the red sox made a butt load off of the japanese sign in fenway park alone. it's estimated that it costs $300' date='000 to have a sign behind home plate for half an inning at fenway. imagine how much it costs for a year worth of advertising. selling red sox merchandise in japan isn't the only way the red sox have of making money off of the japanese market[/quote']They are not disclosing any of these lucrative income streams. Do any other teams have similar signs, and aren't you guessing about the amount?

 

Isn't that $300,000 fee for a half inning of every game? Also, it is expensive becaues it is in camera shot the entire time.

[TheKilo]

Wrong again. I am just discussing the FO performance. They have also been outperformed by the Rays IMO and they don't have anywhere near the spending power of the Sox. It's not the spending power that concerns me. I don't think they have used their resources as well as the Yankees or the Rays in the last few years.

 

What resources has Tampa used? Years of first round picks, taken near the top of the draft, all pan out at the same time? How is that using resources better?

[Yaz Sideburn]

They are not disclosing any of these lucrative income streams. Do any other teams have similar signs, and aren't you guessing about the amount?

 

Isn't that $300,000 fee for a half inning of every game? Also, it is expensive becaues it is in camera shot the entire time.

 

i didn't guess at that amount, that's what advertising specialists said it costs

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2007/04/25/sox_have_dice_k_but_rivals_reaping_ad_dollars/

 

needless to say, the red sox made a decent chunk of cash off marketing related to daisuke that they didn't have to share with the other 29 teams

[TheKilo]

My mother had a doctor that misdiagnosed her kidney problems. By the time it was discovered it was too late. That doctor didn't do a good job IMO. Should I have made the diagnosis? How should I know if Oki' date=' MDC and Ramon Ramirez are going to stink. Do I observe their bullpen sessions, have access to their medical reports and so forth? The FO gets paid to pick up on such things. It's their job and they have doctors and coaches who work with these guys every day. I had just assumed that the FO was better at this than me. If they are going to be judged against me, maybe I should apply for a job with the Sox.[/quote']

 

My point is, based on past performance, how would the Sox have predicted such a drop off from their middle inning guys?

 

I hate the "I don't work for them, so I won't offer any alternatives, but I'll still criticize their moves as much as I damn well please" tactic.

 

Come up with some preseason alternatives if you knew the bullpen would tank like it did. If you can't, it doesn't seem fair to continue harping on the point.

[a700hitter]

 

wow, you flat out pulled that one out of your ass. nothing i said at all resembled that sentiment

Is it your belief that our bullpen was good enough to make the playoffs had it not been for the injuries?

 

Is it also your belief that a better bullpen (as good as the Yanks or Rays) could not have gotten us to the playoffs despite the injuries?

[TheKilo]

But the Yankees get the same $3 million that the Red Sox get. We paid the posting fee for no additional income stream. If some other team won the bid' date=' we'd still be getting the $3 million/year.[/quote']

 

The Sox got a guy who won 15 games in 2007, helped lead them to a WS, and then went 18-3 the next year.

 

Seems they got the better of that deal.

[TheKilo]

Is it your belief that our bullpen was good enough to make the playoffs had it not been for the injuries?

 

Is it also your belief that a better bullpen (as good as the Yanks or Rays) could not have gotten us to the playoffs despite the injuries?

 

I believe this team makes the playoffs if they don't miss three months of Pedroia, two of Youkilis, and whole seasons for Cameron and Ellsbury.

 

Yes, the bullpen was good enough if not for the injuries.

[a700hitter]

My point is, based on past performance, how would the Sox have predicted such a drop off from their middle inning guys?

 

I hate the "I don't work for them, so I won't offer any alternatives, but I'll still criticize their moves as much as I damn well please" tactic.

 

Come up with some preseason alternatives if you knew the bullpen would tank like it did. If you can't, it doesn't seem fair to continue harping on the point.

I knew their bullpen was in trouble from the beginning. The fact that they came north with Schoenweiss in the bullpen and that he pitched meaningful innings was a true danger sign. That guy stinks. I was very vocal about that. The second danger sign was that they resigned Embree in hopes that he could be the second lefty in the pen. Those were two very bad signs. I was hoping that they would make moves to improve and build the pen as the season went along, but those moves never came. Now go ahead and ask me what moves I would have made, as if I could prove that any of those moves were possible.

[Yaz Sideburn]

a700, at any point in this thread did i suggest that there's no need to improve the bullpen next year, or did you just pull that out of your ass?

[a700hitter]

The Sox got a guy who won 15 games in 2007, helped lead them to a WS, and then went 18-3 the next year.

 

Seems they got the better of that deal.

No other pitcher could have done better for the bargain price of $102 million? I think it might have been possible to find an adequate replacement for a bit less.

[a700hitter]

I believe this team makes the playoffs if they don't miss three months of Pedroia, two of Youkilis, and whole seasons for Cameron and Ellsbury.

 

Yes, the bullpen was good enough if not for the injuries.

What about answering the second question:

 

Is it also your belief that a better bullpen (as good as the Yanks or Rays) could not have gotten us to the playoffs despite the injuries?

[a700hitter]

a700' date=' at any point in this thread did i suggest that there's no need to improve the bullpen next year, or did you just pull that out of your ass?[/quote']Answer the two questions, and I'll explain my reasoning for making that assertion.

[Dipre]

Damn. I'm all out of popcorn.

 

Add something productive.

 

On topic:

 

Newsflash:

 

The Red Sox are not the Yankees.

 

Even though some people on site aired their concerns about the bullpen not being as effective, anyone who says (or implies) they "foresaw" a decline like this one is flat-out lying. I'm sorry to be a "Theo apologist". But no one expected it to happen. Not the FO, and certainly none of us, or any sports writer.

 

Oh, and the bullpen "woes" have been magnified throughout the season as means to attack the FO (nothing new there). Let me add a couple smileys here to mitigate the effect of my statement.

 

Boston Red Sox month-by-month bullpen ERA:

 

April: 4.16

May: 4.21

June: 6.14

July: 3.07

August: 3.43

September: 4.53

 

The bullpen was around league average for two months, horrible for two months (June/September) and above league average for two months.

 

Now June is inexcusable, but we've had some "stars" pitching in September that certainly justify the ERA. But my point is, that with the exception of one really bad month, the bullpen was acceptable for most of the season.

 

The main problem with the 2010 Red Sox was the rash of injuries, not the bullpen. With a healthy Pedroia, Youk and Ellsbury they make the playoffs. What Theo should and the rest of the FO should have done, IMHO was the following:

 

Theo plays CF, John Henry plays 1B, Larry Lucchino plays 2B, the rest of the FO pitches in the BP. Problem solved.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Answer the two questions' date=' and I'll explain my reasoning for making that assertion.[/quote']

 

no thanks, i'll pass. i don't care what your reasoning is for you interpretting anything i said as me saying "the red sox have no need to improve their bullpen next year". you and i both know that i didn't say anything close to that and you pulled it out of your ass as a straw man argument

[Yaz Sideburn]

Add something productive.

 

On topic:

 

Newsflash:

 

The Red Sox are not the Yankees.

 

Even though some people on site aired their concerns about the bullpen not being as effective, anyone who says (or implies) they "foresaw" a decline like this one is flat-out lying. I'm sorry to be a "Theo apologist". But no one expected it to happen. Not the FO, and certainly none of us, or any sports writer.

 

Oh, and the bullpen "woes" have been magnified throughout the season as means to attack the FO (nothing new there). Let me add a couple smileys here to mitigate the effect of my statement.

 

Boston Red Sox month-by-month bullpen ERA:

 

April: 4.16

May: 4.21

June: 6.14

July: 3.07

August: 3.43

September: 4.53

 

The bullpen was around league average for two months, horrible for two months (June/September) and above league average for two months.

 

Now June is inexcusable, but we've had some "stars" pitching in September that certainly justify the ERA. But my point is, that with the exception of one really bad month, the bullpen was acceptable for most of the season.

 

The main problem with the 2010 Red Sox was the rash of injuries, not the bullpen. With a healthy Pedroia, Youk and Ellsbury they make the playoffs. What Theo should and the rest of the FO should have done, IMHO was the following:

 

Theo plays CF, John Henry plays 1B, Larry Lucchino plays 2B, the rest of the FO pitches in the BP. Problem solved.

 

welcome to the party

[a700hitter]

no thanks' date=' i'll pass. i don't care what your reasoning is for you interpretting anything i said as me saying "the red sox have no need to improve their bullpen next year". you and i both know that i didn't say anything close to that and you pulled it out of your ass as a straw man argument[/quote']You were the one who wanted to know where I came up with my assertion. I was attempting to explain. Next time save the rhetorical questions or tell me that it is a rhetorical question, and I will not post an explanation.

[Yaz Sideburn]

You were the one who wanted to know where I came up with my assertion. I was attempting to explain. Next time save the rhetorical questions or tell me that it is a rhetorical question' date=' and I will not post an explanation.[/quote']

 

i didn't ask you a rhetoical question, i asked you if at any point i actually said that there's no need to improve the bullpen next year or if you pulled that out or your ass. when you answered my question with two questions i cut to the chase - you pulled it out of your ass