Masterson, V-Mart -- I forgot.

[lasitter]

So I've forgotten the other details of the trade. Who else did the Guardians end up getting as a result of the trade and with draft picks?

 

I see the first roles of the catcher as being a run-reducer, keeping bad pitches in front of him, stopping the running game with an arm like a cannon, fielding bunts, etc., etc.

 

If someone did all that I'd be very happy with them batting their weight.

 

Was the trade worth it?

[yeszir]

Nick Hagadone and Bryan Price.

 

I was going to say it was worth it, except for what Masterson just did to the Red Sox

[a700hitter]

Of all the Sox young pitchers, I always thought that Masterson had the most movement. The problem he had was he had no idea where the pitch was going. If he can manage to throw stikes, he will be successful. He can't throw a straight pitch and he is strong as an Ox.

[lasitter]

Thanks. Couple of weeks ago I had heard some commentators opining about how V-Mart's throwing had tailed off early in the season, but that now it was working its way back up to average again.

 

I guess if that part of his game is at least average then maybe the trade was OK.

[yeszir]

Don't you remember? He couldn't throw my grandma out at the beginning of the season.

[a700hitter]

Don't you remember? He couldn't throw my grandma out at the beginning of the season.

But the pitchers were letting her get a very big jump.

[yeszir]

But the pitchers were letting her get a very big jump.

 

She can run though so maybe that's not a fair statement

[a700hitter]

She can run though so maybe that's not a fair statement

Probably not a good example. The more damning evidence is that opposing catchers were stealing off him.

[Palodios]

Victor Martinez was realistically the second best or third best offensive catcher, and that big an upgrade from a hurting Varitek was a huge improvement. Put into perspective, its almost like upgrading from Casey Kotchman to Prince Fielder. Considering that they'll almost definitely get two early round picks for VMart, that means they'll be getting two prospects back for the prospects they put out. Masterson has a bright future, but it may take him a while to figure things out( or maybe he just did figure it out).

 

Masterson never really fit with the Sox-- they just couldn't figure out what they wanted to do with him. Cleveland however, wants him to start, and I hope he does well. Its been a win-win-win situation for everyone. Masterson gets to start, VMart gets to play for a contender, both teams got something good out of the deal, and Hagadone/Price will be part of the re-building process for cleveland and will get a role when the time comes. In Boston they'd have to fight to get in the rotation.

[jacksonianmarch]

VMart is probably the third or fourth best behind Posada, Mauer and maybe McCann (probably not, though).

 

That being said, this deal was from a significant strength that the red sox had (young pitching) for something their system was pretty barren on which was catching. It made sense from the sox perspective. And they have gotten A+ production from the catcher's position ever since, at least offensively. It's a win-win IMO. You get a yr and a half of elite offensive production from the catcher's spot for a pitcher who would have started out the yr 7th on the SP depth chart and would graduate to a max of 6 next season. It was a no-brainer. The Guardians have the chance to make out better on the deal depending on how Hagadone and Price turn out. But that is how all prospect for all-star deals work. The team dealing the all-star typically gets one solid prospect and a bunch of guys with talent who havent graduated to the elite level yet.

[a700hitter]

Victor Martinez was realistically the second best or third best offensive catcher, and that big an upgrade from a hurting Varitek was a huge improvement. Put into perspective, its almost like upgrading from Casey Kotchman to Prince Fielder. Considering that they'll almost definitely get two early round picks for VMart, that means they'll be getting two prospects back for the prospects they put out. Masterson has a bright future, but it may take him a while to figure things out( or maybe he just did figure it out).

 

Masterson never really fit with the Sox-- they just couldn't figure out what they wanted to do with him. Cleveland however, wants him to start, and I hope he does well. Its been a win-win-win situation for everyone. Masterson gets to start, VMart gets to play for a contender, both teams got something good out of the deal, and Hagadone/Price will be part of the re-building process for cleveland and will get a role when the time comes. In Boston they'd have to fight to get in the rotation.

The Phillies gave up less to get Cliff Lee.

[jacksonianmarch]

Not so sure there a700. Jason Donald is probably a franchise SS, IMO. Those are worth a lot more than a guy who, even if he reaches his full potential, is a #2 or #3 starter.

[a700hitter]

Not so sure there a700. Jason Donald is probably a franchise SS' date=' IMO. Those are worth a lot more than a guy who, even if he reaches his full potential, is a #2 or #3 starter.[/quote']At age 26, I don't think he has a high ceiling. Also, I don't think Lee is a #2 or # 3 starter.

 

Come to think about it, the Phillies didn't give up much for Halladay either.

[Dojji]

I'm an ardent believer in catcher's defense being important. I would rather have Yadier Molina on our roster than any of the league's big thumpers (other than Joe Mauer of course, who is great at both).

 

If you can't get one of those guys, then sure, shore up bad defense with the best offense you can, but a catcher's primary job is to be our defensive general.

[Dipre]

VMart is probably the third or fourth best behind Posada, Mauer and maybe McCann (probably not, though).

 

.

 

At this point in their careers, V-Mart is a better hitter than Posada. Stop trying to convince yourself otherwise.

[YAZMAN]

Of all the Sox young pitchers' date=' I always thought that Masterson had the most movement. The problem he had was he had no idea where the pitch was going. If he can manage to throw stikes, he will be successful. He can't throw a straight pitch and he is strong as an Ox.[/quote']

 

His control will probably improve with age. I hated to see him go. Talk about corn-fed beef, his frame is huge.

[Lester82]

At this point in their careers' date=' V-Mart is a better hitter than Posada. Stop trying to convince yourself otherwise.[/quote']

 

I know. He just couldn't stop himself from trying to rank him behind Posada.

[Palodios]

VMart is probably the third or fourth best behind Posada, Mauer and maybe McCann (probably not, though).

 

Nitpicking is not necessary. Posada is a DH now. I said second or third, and you said third or fourth. what's the difference, considering Pasada probably won't be catching a whole lot more.

[jacksonianmarch]

At this point in their careers' date=' V-Mart is a better hitter than Posada. Stop trying to convince yourself otherwise.[/quote']

 

I dont need any convincing, the numbers are pretty clear..

 

Posada had an .885OPS last yr and is OPSing .905 this yr. In 2008, he was hurt, but in 2007, he had an OPS of .969. Plus, Posada's career OPS is .860

 

VMart has a career OPS .021 points lower than Posada's, currently has an OPS 45 points below Posada and hasnt out OPS'd Posada since 2005.

 

Believe what you want, but Posada has outhit VMart consistently for the past 5 seasons. But I can continue to find ways to convince myself otherwise, except that I cannot

[Dipre]

"At this stage in their careers".

 

Posada 2009 splits: 1.013/ .760 OPS

 

 

Victor Martinez 2009 splits: .774/ .925

 

Which is why you need to take into context the home field advantage enjoyed by everyone who hits lefty in NYS, but you already knew that.

 

Hey, but i forgot to mention, the magical pinstriped uniform keeps "Father time" from affecting Yankee players. Since 2005, Posada has played 624 games to V-Mart's 727, and what's that you used to say about playing time being important when taking into account overall performance when you were using it as an argument against JD Drew? So the fact that V-Mart has better counting stats because he plays more and has caught more games is irrelevant now as opposed to when comparing, say, JD Drew and Bobby Abreu. Some things never change.

[jacksonianmarch]

Posada missed almost the entire season in 2008. That skews data a bit there Dipre. Your point was offense. I proved you wrong. Eat it

[Dipre]

Posada missed almost the entire season in 2008. That skews data a bit there Dipre. Your point was offense. I proved you wrong. Eat it

 

B-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

 

If we both play that game, V-Mart missed almost all of 2008 (irony) with an injury that f***ed his numbers to the tune of a .701 OPS.

 

V-Mart played 23 more games during 2008.

 

And if you're trying to understimate the impact of NYS on his numbers, lay off the pipe.

 

As for the "the point was offense" your point was that he was "the third best hitting catcher": Well news for you: Posada hasn't been a full-time catcher for a couple years now.Eat it.

[rhet]

VMart is a better hitter than Posada. He's clearly a better pure hitter, while Posada would appear to have a slight edge in power. But let's be honest, Posada has benefited greatly from both the short porch and the yank lineup protection.

[Dipre]

VMart is a better hitter than Posada. He's clearly a better pure hitter' date=' while Posada would appear to have a slight edge in power. But let's be honest, Posada has benefited greatly from both the short porch and the yank lineup protection.[/quote']

 

Don't forget: He's not a full-time catcher anymore.

[jacksonianmarch]

B-u-l-l-s-h-i-t.

 

If we both play that game, V-Mart missed almost all of 2008 (irony) with an injury that f***ed his numbers to the tune of a .701 OPS.

 

V-Mart played 23 more games during 2008.

 

And if you're trying to understimate the impact of NYS on his numbers, lay off the pipe.

 

As for the "the point was offense" your point was that he was "the third best hitting catcher": Well news for you: Posada hasn't been a full-time catcher for a couple years now.Eat it.

 

Dipre, you dont deal well with actual proof do you? You seem to forget that the entire point of the argument was offense. Posada has provided higher OPS's over every sample size you can get. Posada has been a bit more injury prone due to his older age, but he has been our starting catcher predominantly over the past 5 seasons. Last yr, he caught over 100 games. 2008, he blew out his shoulder, 2007 he caught more than 100 games. Also, VMart wont be a catcher for much longer anyway since his defense blows, so with that argument, you kinda lose a bunch of leverage as well. In the end, we have the stats, which favor Posada rather convincingly. Continue smoking the pipe

[Dipre]

Point A: Posada plays in NYS, his splits shows it gives him a home-field advantage in his stats. Actual proof.

 

Point B: Posada is no longer a full-time catcher, which was the initial point.

 

Point C: As it stands now, because of health issues and context-neutral production, Victor Martinez is a better hitter and player than Posada.

 

Jacko, you're the one who can't deal with actual proof when it pertains to Yankee players.

 

Repeat after me: Pinstripes are not magical, pinstripes are not magical,pinstripes are not magical.

 

Funny how quickly your "skewed sample size" turned to dust and it's not actual proof, amirite?

[jacksonianmarch]

No, you arent right. The only thing you have is at bats, that's it. Enjoy fantasy land!

[Palodios]

Point B: Posada is no longer a full-time catcher, which was the initial point.

 

That was my initial reasoning on why Posada shouldn't be considered as a top catcher. Let's move on, shall we?

[Dipre]

No' date=' you arent right. The only thing you have is at bats, that's it. Enjoy fantasy land![/quote']

 

Wait, you're the one talking about facts, and when faced with facts (home/road splits) then they're NOT facts because they don't suit your argument? Lolwut?

 

Oh, and Posada's not a full-time catcher.

[Lester82]

He can't concede a Red Sox is better than a Yankee, it's some Michael Kay reflex in his soul or something.