Thoughts on Strasburg

[jacksonianmarch]

How much more stress? How many m-kg of tourque are we talking? Are we sure that he hasnt overcompensated for that by further strengthening the the arm? How much tourque is enough to tear his UCL? His supraspinatous tendon? His teres minor tendon? That's the thing. There are no measurements of the tourque, which is the only way to standardize the stress on his joints. Otherwise, all it is is observation of what is "vigorous" and what is overly stressful. See what I mean? It's a biased opinion impossible to be proven

[Dipre]

How much more stress? How many m-kg of tourque are we talking? Are we sure that he hasnt overcompensated for that by further strengthening the the arm? How much tourque is enough to tear his UCL? His supraspinatous tendon? His teres minor tendon? That's the thing. There are no measurements of the tourque' date=' which is the only way to standardize the stress on his joints. Otherwise, all it is is observation of what is "vigorous" and what is overly stressful. See what I mean? It's a biased opinion impossible to be proven[/quote']

 

Nope, you're simply taking it from the wrong POV.

 

It's impossible to predict whether Strasburg will or will not injure himself, but the concern over his mechanics is valid, because there is a precedent supported by pitching coaches and trainers everywhere that explain how a clean set of mechanics is vital towards a pitchers' durability.

 

Does this mean Strasburg will get injured? It does not, but the fact that his mechanics could prove problematic is not to be discarded. The opinion of people who gain a living from analyzing players' hitting and pitching mechanics (in this case, trainers) should be as, if not more valid than yours.

[26 to 6]

His mechanics haven't changed. I checked it out thoroughly using MLB.TV. Same arm-angle' date=' same stride, same finish.[/quote']

OK, I was just wondering. I didn't see him pitch at all in 2008 in college or in the Olympics, so I honestly can't argue or dispute that, so I don't doubt you one bit. I saw a handful of his starts at SDSU and most of his starts during spring training and in the minors, I just figured there may have possibly been some change or adjustments made over the course of the last few years. Like I said though, I haven't seen enough of him over a long stretch of time to say for sure, so I'll trust your research and your word for now.

 

Just like I can't argue with jacko and his questioning various "theories" as to stresses endured by a pitcher relating to his arm motion. He's a doctor, I'm not. I can for an opinion (albeit would be uneducated in this particular case) based on what I observe in the various motions of different pitchers, but that's about it.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are using anecdotal evidence based on expert "opinion". That is classified as level 5 evidence. There are 4 levels ahead of that which are better. I practice evidence based care, and the anecdotal type of "evidence" is sorely lacking in well, actual evidence. If we practiced that way, then vaccines never would have become important and the world would still be "flat". I am saying that expert opinion is only as good as the evidence that the expert has.

[Northern Star]

I know nothing of pitching mechanics, but I'm worried by the negative things I hear. I also hear his delivery being called free and easy. So which is it? I think he is odds on to be a legend, and would hate to see him suffer significant injuries like Prior.

[Dipre]

You are using anecdotal evidence based on expert "opinion". That is classified as level 5 evidence. There are 4 levels ahead of that which are better. I practice evidence based care' date=' and the anecdotal type of "evidence" is sorely lacking in well, actual evidence. If we practiced that way, then vaccines never would have become important and the world would still be "flat". I am saying that expert opinion is only as good as the evidence that the expert has.[/quote']

 

Do you have any other sort of evidence that's "better" than the anecdotal evidence provided by coaches and trainers?

 

And is pitching, an activity that's composed of repetition, have anything to do with vaccines? The two examples have nothing to do with each other.

 

If you think your opinion holds more weight than people that have been working with minor leaguers for years and have seen every time of injury possible, and have seen how a mechanical correction can avoid an injury problem, then more power to you.

 

Even better how you know and admit that there is more stress involved in pitching with faulty mechanics. Even though there isn't an exact number, it's simply common sense to understand that it's harder to maintain a consistent mechanical repetition with high-maintenance mechanics, and even worse if you're trying to force a scapula load.

[jacksonianmarch]

The two examples I provided show you what consensus and expert opinion lead you to. Mostly ignorance. Without actual evidence, actual measurements, actual data, the idea is just that. An unproven idea making people a LOT of money. That's the point. You can make assumptions, predictions, ideas, etc, but without evidence, it's all fluff. I won't get into a fight with you on this, since I don't expect you to understand. It took me a few yrs of medical school to get my mind wrapped around the idea since a lot of people are used to just being spoon-fed by people we assume are experts on stuff and believe everything at face value. This is the problem.

 

And, if these guys' probabilities of injury are so sky high, why do teams keep drafting them? Well, because of the last statements in that article. He could be Mark Prior or John Smoltz. Kinda big window there, right?

[Dipre]

It's simple. Teams always think they can fix a guy's mechanics.

 

Only time will tell. I bet that they'll either handle him with the kid gloves for as much time as possible, or make the necessary adjustments as they go along, which if you had read what i posted thoroughly, would have noticed that's what happened with Smoltz when they lowered his arm angle.

 

By the way, your initial statement was that Dusty Baker ran Mark Prior to the ground, well consider the following:

 

Mark Prior's Major League career began when he was 21. By the time he was 23 he had thrown 5,426 pitches. Mark Buehrle's career began when he was 21. After being 23 for several months, Mark Buehrle had thrown over 6,000 pitches. Mark Prior career has been riddled with injuries. Buehrle has never been on the DL for an extended period of time. It seems that Prior's injuries cannot simply be explained by the fact that he was overworked when he was young.

 

It's not scientific analysis, but it makes sense.

 

Again, only time will tell. But hundreds upon hundreds of examples of kids who get hurt early due to poor pitching mechanics makes a hell of a lot of a sample size and logical explanation.

[jacksonianmarch]

There are thousands of examples of guys with bad mechanics having no health problems and guys with "perfect" mechanics who blow out their arms. That's the problem, only time will tell, as with everyone. This is more of the "we both have two separate opinions" problem. Since we truly have no actual, tangible evidence, both of us could be right and both could be wrong.

[jacksonianmarch]

Lets just put it this way. I don't discount their ideas, I would just like them to prove it over a finite amount of time before I digest it as fact.

[Dipre]

There are thousands of examples of guys with bad mechanics having no health problems and guys with "perfect" mechanics who blow out their arms. That's the problem' date=' only time will tell, as with everyone. This is more of the "we both have two separate opinions" problem. Since we truly have no actual, tangible evidence, both of us could be right and both could be wrong.[/quote']

 

Agree on that.

 

Different experiences, since i've seen so many kids blow up their elbows on what could be identified as the stress caused by abusing breaking pitches with faulty mechanics. Seen many kids' problems "corrected" by a mechanical adjustment as well.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think a massive amount of this hinges on how a kid is raised. Hell, RA Dickey became a major league pitcher without a UCL. Yep, that's right, he has no ulnar collateral ligament. He was born without one. That should be impossible, but obviously, it isnt.

[Dipre]

I'd heard the Dickey story, but isn't it supposed to be mitigated by the fact that he's a knuckleballer?

[jacksonianmarch]

He wasnt a knuckleballer when he was initially drafted. He threw pretty hard when he was initially taken, but couldnt locate.

[DirtDog331724632256]

The hype that the media has created over this kid must put a tremendous amount of stress on him.

 

I dont care if he is throwing to the pirates or the yankees, hes got lights out stuff.

[Spudboy]

Not really relevant to this discussion, but R.A. Dickey's name was mentioned. I did some reseach about him a couple of weeks ago when I asked if the Phillies ever faced a knuckleballer. I stumbled upon this interview. The guy doing the interview is kind of awkward (and he apologizes for it!). Never the less, there is a lot to be learned by this interview. Dickey explains a lot about how things work and how things go.

 

Plus, he seems like a pretty cool guy.

 

[Northern Star]

He wasnt a knuckleballer when he was initially drafted. He threw pretty hard when he was initially taken' date=' [b']but couldnt locate.[/b]

 

Only a slight drawback.

[Spudboy]

Only a slight drawback.

 

His back was f***ed up.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly, he couldnt locate. But he generated enough strength to throw 90+mph without a ligament most people consider crucial to arm stability. That is why I think up-bringing and base strength are more important than this kinesiology s***. Mathematically, if the force applied is less than the force needed to overcome the obstacle (ie the UCL) then the obstacle stays in place. There may be more theoretical unmeasured effort put into the delivery, but if you dont know A. how much force is being applied, and B. how much force would be required to tear said ligament, then any argument is filled with doubt and uncertainty

[Divinity]

Pitching well against the Pirates doesn't say that much, A Rod makes nearly as much salary as their entire team does, along with the fact they have the worst offense in all of baseball, ranking 30th out of 30.

[Dipre]

Exactly' date=' he couldnt locate. But he generated enough strength to throw 90+mph without a ligament most people consider crucial to arm stability. That is why I think up-bringing and base strength are more important than this kinesiology s***. Mathematically, if the force applied is less than the force needed to overcome the obstacle (ie the UCL) then the obstacle stays in place. There may be more theoretical unmeasured effort put into the delivery, but if you dont know A. how much force is being applied, and B. how much force would be required to tear said ligament, then any argument is filled with doubt and uncertainty[/quote']

 

But there's an ample size of data backing (even if it is anedoctal) backing up the latter, while all we have is your opinion backing up the former. It's really that simple. Dickey may be an exception to the rule, and every rule has its exception.

[TedWilliams101]

Also, I think it's important to remember exactly how Prior fell apart. Yes, his mechanics were probably part of the problem, but he was used WAY to much in his first 2 seasons (106 pitches per start in '02, 113 in '03) in pro ball. Blowing out his achilles tendon might not have been just because of his delivery, there are a ton of factors, but the injury itself may have completely destroyed his arm. I'm sure taking the line-drive off his elbow the very next season leading to a compression fracture didn't help.

 

The fact is, Prior could just have been a case of a guy with a weak arm/body and incredibly bad luck. I don't think it would be a stretch to think it possible that if he simply wasn't over used early on, he might have avoided blowing his achilles tendon and may have thus dodged all the following injuries.

[redsoxrules]

Pitching well against the Pirates doesn't say that much' date=' A Rod makes nearly as much salary as their entire team does, along with the fact they have the worst offense in all of baseball, ranking 30th out of 30.[/quote']

 

interesting you say that ....

how many other pitchers K'd 14 Pirates this year ?

[Dipre]

Hell, how many pitchers have gotten 14 K's this year for that matter.

[Dipre]

Also, I think it's important to remember exactly how Prior fell apart. Yes, his mechanics were probably part of the problem, but he was used WAY to much in his first 2 seasons (106 pitches per start in '02, 113 in '03) in pro ball. Blowing out his achilles tendon might not have been just because of his delivery, there are a ton of factors, but the injury itself may have completely destroyed his arm. I'm sure taking the line-drive off his elbow the very next season leading to a compression fracture didn't help.

 

The fact is, Prior could just have been a case of a guy with a weak arm/body and incredibly bad luck. I don't think it would be a stretch to think it possible that if he simply wasn't over used early on, he might have avoided blowing his achilles tendon and may have thus dodged all the following injuries.

 

Mark Buerhle pitched more innings and threw more pitches than Prior from age 21 to 23 yet has avoided the DL for extended periods of time.

[jacksonianmarch]

But there's an ample size of data backing (even if it is anedoctal) backing up the latter' date=' while all we have is your opinion backing up the former. It's really that simple. Dickey may be an exception to the rule, and every rule has its exception.[/quote']

 

anecdotal data is pretty much useless, though. You need actual useful statistical data. Like I said, consensus opinion is just that, an opinion. And we in the medical field are wrong on a lot of things related to opinion instead of fact.

[Dipre]

anecdotal data is pretty much useless' date=' though. You need actual useful statistical data. Like I said, consensus opinion is just that, an opinion. And we in the medical field are wrong on a lot of things related to opinion instead of fact.[/quote']

 

Consensus is better than a single opinion. Just sayin'.

[TedWilliams101]

Mark Buerhle pitched more innings and threw more pitches than Prior from age 21 to 23 yet has avoided the DL for extended periods of time.

 

Buehrle was able to get stretched out in the minors where as Prior did not. Prior only pitched 50 innings in his first year in the minors because of a non-pitching related injury. He then goes up to the bigs and 116 and 211 innings in his next to seasons.

 

More importantly, though, is that Prior has a far more stressful delivery and possibly a weaker arm (again, this has nothing to do with the mechanics). For one, prior had far FAR better stuff than Buehrle. Now, I'm not saying that it isn't impressive how durable he is, I'm simply saying it's not a good comparison. If Buehrle had a similar delivery then I'd say it's a good point, but he doesn't.

 

The point is that most pitchers have to get stretched out for a couple years until they can go 200 innings every season and some simply don't have the durability to last 200 innings period. Some pitchers have the durability the day the step into pro ball (lincecum, etc), but most don't. It's not the norm, especially for someone with a violent delivery. If they had just limited Prior's innings and slowly built up arm strength they could have possibly saved his career, but the point is that we just don't know. The human body alone is a gigantic and complicated factor that is different with every person.

[Dipre]

 

More importantly, though, is that Prior has a far more stressful delivery and possibly a weaker arm (again, this has nothing to do with the mechanics). For one, prior had far FAR better stuff than Buehrle. Now, I'm not saying that it isn't impressive how durable he is, I'm simply saying it's not a good comparison. If Buehrle had a similar delivery then I'd say it's a good point, but he doesn't.