Red Sox injury updates

[Yaz Sideburn]

I agree that generally the FO does a good job. However' date=' Theo's weak point has always been the bullpen. While the bullpen might have looked good on paper, it was obvious in April that it was not good on the field. They did nothing to build it during the season. BTW

 

i guess we agree to disagree then. like i said, i think the main philosophical difference between you and the other posters in this thread is that you think the front office deserves heavy blame for the bad bullpen and others here think it looked like a good bullpen on paper

[a700hitter]

i guess we agree to disagree then. like i said' date=' i think the main philosophical difference between you and the other posters in this thread is that you think the front office deserves heavy blame for the bad bullpen and others here think it looked like a good bullpen on paper[/quote']You are not locked into finishing the season with the bullpen you start with. Frequently, teams retool the pen as the season progresses. This season it was obvious that the pen had problems in April, but they made no adjustments.

[Yaz Sideburn]

You are not locked into finishing the season with the bullpen you start with. Frequently' date=' teams retool the pen as the season progresses. This season it was obvious that the pen had problems in April, but they made no adjustments.[/quote']

 

i think the front office made a decision at the trade deadline that 2 months of a reliever on a team that was 6 games out of a playoff spot was not worth shipping off prospects for. i didn't have that much of a problem with that at the time

 

but again, you're criticizing them with the benefit of hindsight

[a700hitter]

i think the front office made a decision at the trade deadline that 2 months of a reliever on a team that was 6 games out of a playoff spot was not worth shipping off prospects for. i didn't have that much of a problem with that at the time

 

but again, you're criticizing them with the benefit of hindsight

I thought they were wrong at the time, and I criticized them for not making any moves. Time proved me right.

[Yaz Sideburn]

I thought they were wrong at the time' date=' and I criticized them for not making any moves. Time proved me right.[/quote']

 

time proved you right? i'm sure you would have also criticized them if we gave up a prospect for a reliever and the reliever did poorly. you have the benefit of hindsight

[a700hitter]

time proved you right? i'm sure you would have also criticized them if we gave up a prospect for a reliever and the reliever did poorly. you have the benefit of hindsight

If I criticize a move or non move at the time of the move or non-move, there is no benefit of hindsight. Wow, trying to prove me wrong is really an obsession with you. It reminds me of Dutchy/Imperial.

[Yaz Sideburn]

If I criticize a move or non move at the time of the move or non-move' date=' there is no benefit of hindsight. Wow, trying to prove me wrong is really an obsession with you. It reminds me of Dutchy/Imperial.[/quote']

 

no need to play the victim card. if you think i'm somehow being obsessive or subversive, you have the ability to stop the discussion at any time or send me a pm as we agreed to do if we had an issue with eachother

[a700hitter]

i'm not trying to prove you wrong, i've said that i agree to disgree. just because we believe two different things doesn't mean one of us is wrong

 

no need to play the victim card. if you think i'm somehow being obsessive or subversive, you have the ability to stop the discussion at any time

Then why are you trying so hard. I think the FO did a poor job on the pen and they should own it. You think they did a good job and had bad luck. You say that you agree to disagree, but you don't leave it alone. For the record, when i am wrong, I do admit it, and I am sure that behind closed doors the FO is taking responsibility too.

[Yaz Sideburn]

I'll bite.

 

I would have kept Saito.

 

i agree. at the very least we should have offered him arbitration so we could have gotten a draft pick out of him

[a700hitter]

no need to play the victim card. if you think i'm somehow being obsessive or subversive' date=' you have the ability to stop the discussion at any time or send me a pm as we agreed to do if we had an issue with eachother[/quote']I'm no victim in this, but when I'm not wrong I don't give in. You are wasting your time if that is what you are looking for.

[Yaz Sideburn]

Then why are you trying so hard. I think the FO did a poor job on the pen and they should own it. You think they did a good job and had bad luck. You say that you agree to disagree' date=' but you don't leave it alone. For the record, when i am wrong, I do admit it, and I am sure that behind closed doors the FO is taking responsibility too.[/quote']

 

i was just having a casual, civil discussion to pass the time while i watch the game. if you have a personal issue with me or my posts please either ignore me, stop responding to me or send me a pm to discuss it

[a700hitter]

i was just having a casual' date=' civil discussion to pass the time while i watch the game. if you have a personal issue with me or my posts please either ignore me, stop responding to me or send me a pm to discuss it[/quote']You are kidding right? You goaded me in several posts into making a 20-20 hindsight proposal about fixing the 2010 pen, and then after I make my proposal and debate your arguments, you suggest that I ignore you?:dunno:

[Dipre]

Head hurts again. You guys are ridiculous.

[a700hitter]

Head hurts again. You guys are ridiculous.

Feel free to put us on ignore, Bronco Boy.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Head hurts again. You guys are ridiculous.

 

I didn't want to say anything but yeah they're getting a bit out of hand.

[jacksonianmarch]

You are kidding right? You goaded me in several posts into making a 20-20 hindsight proposal about fixing the 2010 pen' date=' and then after I make my proposal and debate your arguments, you suggest that I ignore you?:dunno:[/quote']

 

He's a troll. You should ignore him.

[Palodios]

You are not locked into finishing the season with the bullpen you start with. Frequently' date=' teams retool the pen as the season progresses. This season it was obvious that the pen had problems in April, but they made no adjustments.[/quote']

 

In all fairness, half of the starting bullpen from the beginning of this year isn't on it anymore.

[a700hitter]

In all fairness' date=' half of the starting bullpen from the beginning of this year isn't on it anymore.[/quote']I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but I was trying to make two points- the first being that the FO was not purely the victim of bad luck when it came to the bullpen. The problem was evident in April when there was plenty of time to do something about it. The second point is that since I held this opinion in April there was no hindsight involved.

 

Again, I don't know Why you would jump in at this juncture with this comment. I'm not sure about your point. Seems like a trolling attempt.

[Palodios]

The point I'm making is that the FO did have a plan. They converted their best two AAA pitchers to bullpen arms, and dropped the s***** pieces of the team. They also tested a few mediocre pitchers in noncrucial situation until one worked-- Atchison. Considering their long-term strategy for this season it makes more than enough sense for me.

[a700hitter]

The point I'm making is that the FO did have a plan. They converted their best two AAA pitchers to bullpen arms' date=' and dropped the s***** pieces of the team. They also tested a few mediocre pitchers in noncrucial situation until one worked-- Atchison. Considering their long-term strategy for this season it makes more than enough sense for me.[/quote']Of course the FO had a plan. Making no acquisitions is a plan, but the stats bear out that this year's plan was a miserable failure. Third form the bottom of the league is hard to argue otherwise. If you too want to think it is bad luck, that is your opinion. Converting a minor league staring pitcher to the bullpen in the first week of August as the major move wasn't going to get it done, and it didn't.

[Palodios]

Let's compare the ERA of the bullpen arms from last year to this year, and by career numbers

 

R. Ramirez___2.84/4.46/3.31

Okajima_____3.39/4.74/3.09

Papelbon____1.85/4.02/2.23

MDC________4.53/5.19/3.99

 

hell, I'll throw in these guys too.

 

Beckett 3.87/5.77/3.95

Lackey 3.83/4.51/3.90

Wakefield 4.58/5.17/4.37

 

It is not opinion that this team's pitching staff has had a bad year, it is an explicitly clear fact. There is no way the FO could have foreseen this happening considering what these guys did last year. They spent half the season assuming that it was just a bad start and atleast one or two of them would revert to career numbers, but unfortunately it did not happen.

 

I still am under the belief that there is something seriously wrong with the Red Sox training staff/program. I know everyone likes to ignore this as a crackpot theory, but every single pitcher over the age of 26 seriously underperformed this year. Whatever it is, the older guys can't handle it.

[a700hitter]

They could have gotten an older guy like Kerry Wood. He did pretty good for an old dude.

[Palodios]

Kerry Wood had an ERA of 6.30 when he was traded this year. Had they acquired him, and had he not turned back into an elite pitcher, you would be insulting the FO for not acquiring someone else.

[a700hitter]

Let's compare the ERA of the bullpen arms from last year to this year, and by career numbers

 

R. Ramirez___2.84/4.46/3.31

Okajima_____3.39/4.74/3.09

Papelbon____1.85/4.02/2.23

MDC________4.53/5.19/3.99

 

hell, I'll throw in these guys too.

 

Beckett 3.87/5.77/3.95

Lackey 3.83/4.51/3.90

Wakefield 4.58/5.17/4.37

 

It is not opinion that this team's pitching staff has had a bad year, it is an explicitly clear fact. There is no way the FO could have foreseen this happening considering what these guys did last year. They spent half the season assuming that it was just a bad start and atleast one or two of them would revert to career numbers, but unfortunately it did not happen.

 

I still am under the belief that there is something seriously wrong with the Red Sox training staff/program. I know everyone likes to ignore this as a crackpot theory, but every single pitcher over the age of 26 seriously underperformed this year. Whatever it is, the older guys can't handle it.

Once the season started, they did not have to forsee anything. It was a fact that they stunk out of the gate. That aside, it was foreseeble that Schoenweiss would suck. It was foreseeable that Oki was regressing. His second half numbers in 2009 fell off very badly. His continued regression became evident in April. We were terrible from the Left hand side and that was evident in the first week of the season. The attempted remedy was to sign 65 year old Alan Embree, but his colostomy bag burst while working his way back to the majors. Also, Ramon Ramirez performance also fell off in the second half of 2009, and he looked awful in 2010 Spring training. MDC's lost velocity was a problem in spring training and it was cause for concern.

 

I was surprised about two things regarding the 2010 bullpen -- that they made no acquisitions to bolster the pen and that Papelbon's performance remained inconsistent throughout the season.

 

You think it was bad luck by the FO. That's fine, but it is your opinion. That doesn't invalidate other points of view. We agree that they stunk.

[a700hitter]

Kerry Wood had an ERA of 6.30 when he was traded this year. Had they acquired him' date=' and had he not turned back into an elite pitcher, you would be insulting the FO for not acquiring someone else.[/quote']

That's why the team employs advance scouts-- too see how a guy looks, because stats don't always tell the whole story. The Yanks did their homework and it paid off.

[Palodios]

Embree/Schoenweiss/Bonser/Atchison/the other Ramon Ramirez were all fighting for the last spot in the bullpen-- they were never meant to all be on the roster, the team simply wanted to take the best individual of that group, and they did. The early injury to Dice-k earned Shoenweiss a spot because Wakefield took Dice-k's spot. They weren't elite solutions, they were supposed to be mop-up men, and that plan worked out far better than anyone could have hoped with Atchison.

[a700hitter]

Embree/Schoenweiss/Bonser/Atchison/the other Ramon Ramirez were all fighting for the last spot in the bullpen-- they were never meant to all be on the roster' date=' the team simply wanted to take the best individual of that group, and they did. The early injury to Dice-k earned Shoenweiss a spot because Wakefield took Dice-k's spot. They weren't elite solutions, they were supposed to be mop-up men, and that plan worked out far better than anyone could have hoped with Atchison.[/quote']Yes, it worked out beautifully. That musty be why I get the dry heaves whenever our bullpen got called on this season. Atchinson has been serviceable. He was not the problem in a terrible bullpen.

[Dojji]

Bullpens are unstable. There's a lot of fluctuation that no one can control. Panicking and flinging talent around trying to "improve" the pen is just as likely to make things worse (see Gagne, Eric) as it is to result in anything good.

[a700hitter]

Bullpens are unstable. There's a lot of fluctuation that no one can control. Panicking and flinging talent around trying to "improve" the pen is just as likely to make things worse (see Gagne' date=' Eric) as it is to result in anything good.[/quote']Is it your point that when building a bullpen, if it works out , it was a good job, but whenever it doesn't work out, it can be blamed on fluctuations, vicissitudes and bad luck? I disagree. I think they need to own the results of their actions, and they had plenty of early warning signs that this bullpen was going to stink. I pointed them out above.

[Dojji]

My point is that bullpens need to be evaluated on a year to year basis, and the GM should neither get undue credit when he gets lucky with a great one, nor undue blame when things fall apart far worse than could have been reasonably predicted, which is what happened here.

 

Blame or credit only goes to the GM when a consistent pattern emerges. Years of solid success or consistent failure with the bullpen is to a GM's credit. Theo is neither a great nor a terrible GM as far as the bullpen goes. He's about average, he had a great pen ain 2009 and a terrible one this year and had a lot of people in common between the two. It happens. Of course, the fans tend to overreact when you hit either extreme, lauding the GM when it's great and saying he sucks when things largely beyond his control conspire to knock down his house of cards. I don't think anyone could have predicted that all of MDC, Oki and Paps would have terrible years for them and there's only so much you can do on a year-by-year basis. It's far more important to have a consistent plan and stick with it/