Jermaine Dye, is he the solution?

[Dipre]

This is hysterical.

 

This has to be my all-time favorite post. Jacko is telling someone to watch the game.

 

I...........LOVE............IT!!!!!

 

Interesting thing is i watch more Red Sox games than he does Yankee games. Think about that for a second.

[Gom]

Every plus defensive position in a team helps save runs in the long run. Dont know what youre trying to argue.

 

An excellent defensive 3B will not save you as many runs as a SS or a 2B, but will still make a difference over a s***** 3B. Trying to minimize the importance of other defensive positions to suit your argument is dishonest.

 

I believe that what Jacko is trying to say is that a small difference in a defensive upgrade up the middle is equal to a large upgrade on the corners.

 

Of course, you'd have to watch the games to see this. :thumbsup:

 

Interesting thing is i watch more Red Sox games than he does Yankee games. Think about that for a second.

It is unimportant. He asked you to watch the gamezzzzzzzzz.

 

This made my TalkSox day.

 

On another note, I was bored, so I accepted your TalkSox trade. I honestly don't care either way, but you seem to want him...you owe me one.

[Dipre]

I believe that what Jacko is trying to say is that a small difference in a defensive upgrade up the middle is equal to a large upgrade on the corners.

 

Of course, you'd have to watch the games to see this. :thumbsup:

 

Does that discount the fact that, over the long run, a good 1B and a good 3B combined will save a significant number of runs for their team?

 

Furthermore, how do either you or Jacko know how many games other people watch? Do you have crystal balls (pun intended).

[Gom]

Does that discount the fact that, over the long run, a good 1B and a good 3B combined will save a significant number of runs for their team?

 

Furthermore, how do either you or Jacko know how many games other people watch? Do you have crystal balls (pun intended).

 

Of course not. Do you discount that a good catcher will save a significant number of runs for their team? I would presume the answer is no. The debate is how much, not only on the player, but on the position.

 

I always tell people to watch the games. Jacko makes fun of me for it, scoffing at the idea of watching of games and trumping the merits of statistical analysis over scouting.

 

Seeing him go the other way is hysterical.

 

It would be the equivalent of me coming in here and saying "Man, Holliday sure can hit that high inside fastball".

[jacksonianmarch]

Every plus defensive position in a team helps save runs in the long run. Dont know what youre trying to argue.

 

An excellent defensive 3B will not save you as many runs as a SS or a 2B, but will still make a difference over a s***** 3B. Trying to minimize the importance of other defensive positions to suit your argument is dishonest.

 

Could have done with the last sentence. Blatant flame attempt.

 

Regardless, my point is, Theo made a commitment to "pitching and defense" yet he has an average to below average SS and a terrible catcher. You build a run preventing defense UP THE MIDDLE. He sold sox fans on defense in 3B and LF.

 

And in terms of Ellsbury, he is the better CFer on the Red Sox imo. He knows the wall, he's younger, he's faster, ETC. Most people who actually claim to know UZR, know that it is not a good stat when taken over one season. For example, Ellsbury was a 3 in 2008, then dropped to -18 in 2009? Ridiculous. Also, your boy Cameron, was essentially at 0 in 2005 and 2006 and was a -10 in 2007. Are we to assume that he is gaining range in his late 30s? Its a better stat to average over a 3-4 yr period. Also, Cameron's is gonna be incredibly low this season

[jacksonianmarch]

Of course not. Do you discount that a good catcher will save a significant number of runs for their team? I would presume the answer is no. The debate is how much, not only on the player, but on the position.

 

I always tell people to watch the games. Jacko makes fun of me for it, scoffing at the idea of watching of games and trumping the merits of statistical analysis over scouting.

 

Seeing him go the other way is hysterical.

 

It would be the equivalent of me coming in here and saying "Man, Holliday sure can hit that high inside fastball".

 

Gom, I laugh at you because you tell people to watch the games, looking for something that isnt there. Kinda like telling people to look out their window on Christmas night for Santa. But if you WATCHED THE CHIMNEY, HE'D COME.

[jacksonianmarch]

Interesting thing is i watch more Red Sox games than he does Yankee games. Think about that for a second.

 

some of us need to work to keep the economy going

[Dipre]

some of us need to work to keep the economy going

 

Wait, werent you accusing me of flaming you a couple post earliers because i said you were being "dishonest" (which you were)?

 

For your information, doctor, im at the office waiting for my associate who had a family issue to deal with.

[jacksonianmarch]

I was ribbing you my friend.

 

BTW, I do watch every inning of the yankee gams. I just DVR them if I was away

[Emmz]

Tacos are good.

[Gom]

Gom' date=' I laugh at you because you tell people to watch the games, looking for something that isnt there. Kinda like telling people to look out their window on Christmas night for Santa. But if you WATCHED THE CHIMNEY, HE'D COME.[/quote']

 

Just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean it isn't there. People a lot smarter than you have figured that out. However, if you watched the games, you'd see it.

 

I really intend to get a lot of mileage out of this one.

[Emmz]

All you need is glove, glove, glove, glove is all you need.

[Dipre]

Could have done with the last sentence. Blatant flame attempt.

 

Regardless, my point is, Theo made a commitment to "pitching and defense" yet he has an average to below average SS and a terrible catcher. You build a run preventing defense UP THE MIDDLE. He sold sox fans on defense in 3B and LF.

 

And in terms of Ellsbury, he is the better CFer on the Red Sox imo. He knows the wall, he's younger, he's faster, ETC. Most people who actually claim to know UZR, know that it is not a good stat when taken over one season. For example, Ellsbury was a 3 in 2008, then dropped to -18 in 2009? Ridiculous. Also, your boy Cameron, was essentially at 0 in 2005 and 2006 and was a -10 in 2007. Are we to assume that he is gaining range in his late 30s? Its a better stat to average over a 3-4 yr period. Also, Cameron's is gonna be incredibly low this season

 

 

Beltre, Scutaro and Cameron all have significant enough sample sizes in regards to their defensive abilities. No one here has ever claimed Cameron is "gaining range" and youre being dishonest again in regards to his defensive statistics again. If you use a three year sample (2007-2009), instead of the position-flip in 05 and the freak injury 06, then you can come up with a reasonable assesment of his defensive abilities.

 

I wil admit though, that given the the Sample induced volatility of UZR, they may have rushed the position flip with Ellsbury and Cameron.

[Keeper]

Dye isn't the solution, but he might be a bandage if he is still capable of being productive.

[BSN07]

I'm not worried about this. Like it was said earlier, "everyone" is under performing at the moment. And unless everyone has a sub career season, it is reasonable to assume the Sox will have a streak were they out perform career averages. That's why I always say wait the first couple months and then see were they are at. It's why I never get too wound up or overly confident when the Yankees play like s*** for the first month or so(which has happened a few times over recent years, not always), only to be right back in the race by mid June and the bad start being a complete after thought. So everyone just needs to chill and let things settle and gel.

 

If things haven't changed by mid June then yes obviously they should be considering changes.

[TheKilo]

In all fairness, no one's really playing the way that they should be for the Red Sox, as far as the run-prevention goes. And offensively, goes the same. If you think about it really, you understand that in all likelihood, the Sox will be back, 'cause everyone's playing under what they're capable of right now.

 

Like I said, give it some time, it's been a couple weeks, I'm not sweating over it.

 

The problem with using run prevention as a strategy for team building is that all of the moving parts need to be going in the same direction for it to be successful. There cannot be a weak link in the chain. Unfortunately, we have seen that with Lester s***ing the bed, Scutaro booting a few, Ellsbuy hurting his ribs and Cameron getting kidney stones.

 

The philosophical issue i have with it is that it is largely unproven way to build a team. Even the most die-hard sabermetricians cannot agree with each other on the true value of defense. It is not like OBP, OPS, or eQA where they are all formula based and objective. A lot of defensive statistics are still very subjective. Building a team around these stats seems risky and foolish.

[a700hitter]

In all fairness, no one's really playing the way that they should be for the Red Sox, as far as the run-prevention goes. And offensively, goes the same. If you think about it really, you understand that in all likelihood, the Sox will be back, 'cause everyone's playing under what they're capable of right now.

 

Like I said, give it some time, it's been a couple weeks, I'm not sweating over it.

Why would you sweat it. Your other favorite team has two monsters in the middle of the lineup and a great catalyst at the top of the order. The Sox don't.

[RWTP24]

No, no, no! Not signing Cameron and Scutaro would have been even better, but for some reason Theo signed these guys. In my opinion, there were better options out there. The Sox have NO hitting at all. The Sox are 0-30 with runners in scoring position in the last few games. Papi needs to be released and Theo needs to think how he can make some trades so the Sox can just hang around and hope the Rays slide way back. I would be shocked if they kept this team and they made the playoffs. I just do not see it happening at all. Yankees, Rays, Twins, Texas and I am sure I am missing one or two are better than the Sox are; therefore, the wild card is out of the picture.

[Emmz]

The problem with using run prevention as a strategy for team building is that all of the moving parts need to be going in the same direction for it to be successful. There cannot be a weak link in the chain. Unfortunately, we have seen that with Lester s***ing the bed, Scutaro booting a few, Ellsbuy hurting his ribs and Cameron getting kidney stones.

 

The philosophical issue i have with it is that it is largely unproven way to build a team. Even the most die-hard sabermetricians cannot agree with each other on the true value of defense. It is not like OBP, OPS, or eQA where they are all formula based and objective. A lot of defensive statistics are still very subjective. Building a team around these stats seems risky and foolish.

 

Yeah, true, but right now the hitting is arguably worse than our ability to hold teams to fewer runs. We have a solid lineup, whether anyone wants to admit that or not. Everyone's pretty much performing worse offensively than they have been, and unless the team's cursed, that's not going to continue.

[example1]

No' date=' no, no! Not signing Cameron and Scutaro would have been even better, but for some reason Theo signed these guys. In my opinion, there were better options out there. The Sox have NO hitting at all. The Sox are 0-30 with runners in scoring position in the last few games. Papi needs to be released and Theo needs to think how he can make some trades so the Sox can just hang around and hope the Rays slide way back. I would be shocked if they kept this team and they made the playoffs. I just do not see it happening at all. Yankees, Rays, Twins, Texas and I am sure I am missing one or two are better than the Sox are; therefore, the wild card is out of the picture.[/quote']

 

No. If the goal of a bunch of trades is to "just hang around and hope the Rays slide way back" then those trades shouldn't be made. If the team can't compete then look at 2011. If they can compete then they should just compete.

 

Your post reeks of desparation.

[a700hitter]

No. If the goal of a bunch of trades is to "just hang around and hope the Rays slide way back" then those trades shouldn't be made. If the team can't compete then look at 2011. If they can compete then they should just compete.

 

Your post reeks of desparation.

It was the FO off season plan that reeked.

[Emmz]

Why would you sweat it. Your other favorite team has two monsters in the middle of the lineup and a great catalyst at the top of the order. The Sox don't.

 

The Sox have a consistently solid lineup all the way through, with what is probably the best pitching in baseball, and what is one of the best defenses in baseball. This is just before the season on paper kinda stuff, but if you think about it, they can't continue to underachieve like this all season. I know it's a logical fallacy, but at the same time, it's only logical that they'd rebound.

 

It's 10 games into the season, I'd wait until at least half the season was up before saying that we have no chance.

 

As far as my "other favorite team" goes, that's beside the point really. We have mediocre pitching really, Liriano was never expected to pitch as well as he has so far, Pavano looked like he was the same way, then he gets rocked. Baker got knocked pretty good on opening day.

 

I never really sweat it until about half a season's up.

[Emmz]

It was the FO off season plan that reeked.

 

10 games into the season he's saying it's all over.

[a700hitter]

10 games into the season he's saying it's all over.

It's not over, but that doesn't mean that the plan was not very flawed.

[YeAuldBroade]

It's not over' date=' but that doesn't mean that the plan was not very flawed.[/quote']

It doesn't mean it was flawed either.

[RWTP24]

No. If the goal of a bunch of trades is to "just hang around and hope the Rays slide way back" then those trades shouldn't be made. If the team can't compete then look at 2011. If they can compete then they should just compete.

 

Your post reeks of desparation.

 

 

No, not at all. I really think the teams are so good that even if the Sox start trade for good players now (i.e. mini rebuilding), they are going to have some trouble keeping up with the Rays, Yankees, Twins and so on.

 

Also, if the pitching does not come around, they are in even bigger trouble. That is what they were banking on.

 

All I am saying is, I hope they start some rebuilding now rather than later. Adrian is still out there and I would hate to see them pass that up.

[MDF3530]

I watched Dye play for the last four years here with the White Sox. If the Red Sox were to acquire him, you'd have to play him in LF. His defensive skills are not what they used to be. I remember watching him and on more than one occasion thinking that several years ago, he would've gotten to some of the balls that were beyond his current reach.

[rhet]

I watched Dye play for the last four years here with the White Sox. If the Red Sox were to acquire him' date=' you'd have to play him in LF. His defensive skills are not what they used to be. I remember watching him and on more than one occasion thinking that several years ago, he would've gotten to some of the balls that were beyond his current reach.[/quote']

 

Sounds like Cameron.

[RWTP24]

Sounds like Cameron.

 

LOL! Yes it does.

[YeAuldBroade]

Cameron... one of the reasons for his s***** play in the field and in the batters box has almost certainly been from the pain of an abdominal tear.