The Ortiz Dilemma

[PWNdroia]

I can't believe how many people are jumping on the 'Ortiz is Toast' bandwagon after 2 games.

 

After TWO games? Wake up. The guy hit .238 last year. His only role was a hitter and he failed at that, all last year.

 

He used to be the best hitter, my favorite player. That is all but gone now. He's finished. Time to get rid of him and get a new DH somewhere down the line. *cough* Matt Holliday should be on this team *cough*.

 

Until then, the next best thing we have to a DH is either Lowell or Hermida. At least they are not an instant out like Ortiz. He got one hit yesterday I know. Whoop de doo, we still lost and he only got one hit in three games. It won't get better.

[bsox0407]

After TWO games? Wake up. The guy hit .238 last year. His only role was a hitter and he failed at that, all last year.

 

He used to be the best hitter, my favorite player. That is all but gone now. He's finished. Time to get rid of him and get a new DH somewhere down the line. *cough* Matt Holliday should be on this team *cough*.

 

Until then, the next best thing we have to a DH is either Lowell or Hermida. At least they are not an instant out like Ortiz. He got one hit yesterday I know. Whoop de doo, we still lost and he only got one hit in three games. It won't get better.

 

I guess Teixeria is done too. he didn't get a hit. Nick Johnson must be a scrub too.

[BoSox21]

After TWO games? Wake up. The guy hit .238 last year. His only role was a hitter and he failed at that, all last year.

 

He used to be the best hitter, my favorite player. That is all but gone now. He's finished. Time to get rid of him and get a new DH somewhere down the line. *cough* Matt Holliday should be on this team *cough*.

 

Until then, the next best thing we have to a DH is either Lowell or Hermida. At least they are not an instant out like Ortiz. He got one hit yesterday I know. Whoop de doo, we still lost and he only got one hit in three games. It won't get better.

 

You really might as well just leave if you're gonna be so negative about everything. I'm not saying you gotta blow sunshine up the team's ass but really, what's the point of posting here if you're gonna be such a cynic about this team?

[a700hitter]

After TWO games? Wake up. The guy hit .238 last year. His only role was a hitter and he failed at that, all last year.

 

He used to be the best hitter, my favorite player. That is all but gone now. He's finished. Time to get rid of him and get a new DH somewhere down the line. *cough* Matt Holliday should be on this team *cough*.

 

Until then, the next best thing we have to a DH is either Lowell or Hermida. At least they are not an instant out like Ortiz. He got one hit yesterday I know. Whoop de doo, we still lost and he only got one hit in three games. It won't get better.

He was the best power hitter in the league from June on last season. We can give him a little more than 2 or 3 games.

[jacksonianmarch]

He will probably get the entire month before Tito starts platooning him with Lowell.

[Divinity]

I guess Teixeria is done too. he didn't get a hit. Nick Johnson must be a scrub too.

 

Teixeria had a bad April last year too, yet he finished second in the MVP voting behind Mauer, with 39 HR's, 122 RBI's and a .292 Average , If Ortiz put up those numbers last season people wouldn't be talking.

 

People generally think when older players don't preform there washed up, rather then younger guys who are just going through a slump.

[redsoxrules]

Bottom line , Ortiz will NEVER be what he was

BUT , I dont think he's toast but he's not far from it and I think this will be the last year he's wearing a Sox uniform witch is sad

 

I hope the f*** he has a monster year but I just dont see it , I think he'll have a similar year like last year

[Dojji]

http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/gif/ppreflex.gif

[Dipre]

Is there a stat that someone can dig up that shows Otriz's production against quality (i know' date=' subjective) pitching over previous years, last year, and league averages? I'd be interested in seeing what that shows.[/quote']

 

If you consider "Power" pitchers to be above average, and "Finesse" to be below average, (with an actual average in the middle) then these are Ortiz' slash stats agains power/average/finesse for last year and his career.

 

Career:

 

Power: .226/.341/.468 .809 OPS

 

Average: .286/.372/.561 .933 OPS

 

Finesse: .308/.398/.573 .971 OPS

 

Last year:

 

Power: .242/.329/.530 .859 OPS

 

Average: .238 .335 .459 .793 OPS

 

Finesse: .237/.331/.425 .756 OPS

 

An interesting reversal of his career trends, but for the topic at hand, it's been three games.....

[Dipre]

After TWO games? Wake up. The guy hit .238 last year. His only role was a hitter and he failed at that, all last year.

 

He used to be the best hitter, my favorite player. That is all but gone now. He's finished. Time to get rid of him and get a new DH somewhere down the line. *cough* Matt Holliday should be on this team *cough*.

 

Until then, the next best thing we have to a DH is either Lowell or Hermida. At least they are not an instant out like Ortiz. He got one hit yesterday I know. Whoop de doo, we still lost and he only got one hit in three games. It won't get better.

 

Seriously, since when is outright trolling permitted on the site?

[jacksonianmarch]

If you consider "Power" pitchers to be above average, and "Finesse" to be below average, (with an actual average in the middle) then these are Ortiz' slash stats agains power/average/finesse for last year and his career.

 

Career:

 

Power: .226/.341/.468 .809 OPS

 

Average: .286/.372/.561 .933 OPS

 

Finesse: .308/.398/.573 .971 OPS

 

Last year:

 

Power: .242/.329/.530 .859 OPS

 

Average: .238 .335 .459 .793 OPS

 

Finesse: .237/.331/.425 .756 OPS

 

An interesting reversal of his career trends, but for the topic at hand, it's been three games.....

 

That is very strange, especially since Ortiz was an automatic out with a FB over 90 through June last yr. Maybe, his aging has caused him to have trouble adjusting. You know, you are taught to sit fastball and adjust curveball. As you get older, you need to cheat fastball, which makes the breaking pitches and changeups that much more effective

[PWNdroia]

He was the best power hitter in the league from June on last season. We can give him a little more than 2 or 3 games.

 

Doesn't dispute the fact he only hit a measely .238 last year.

[Dipre]

Doesn't dispute the fact he only hit a measely .238 last year.

 

Batting average is the worst measure of offensive production.

[Dipre]

That is very strange' date=' especially since Ortiz was an automatic out with a FB over 90 through June last yr. Maybe, his aging has caused him to have trouble adjusting. You know, you are taught to sit fastball and adjust curveball. As you get older, you need to cheat fastball, which makes the breaking pitches and changeups that much more effective[/quote']

 

It was an overall drop in production when compared to his career averages, for one, and for two, we theorized for a long stretch of the year that he was cheating fastball, which would coincide with your statement.

[PWNdroia]

Batting average is the worst measure of offensive production.

 

So what measure would you describe Ortiz's season last year? I don't think he was good at anything he did offensively, and you must realize his only job is to hit.

 

But don't tell me his BA was good the second half, because you yourself said BA is the worst measure. As far as I'm concerned, Ortiz hit .238 and did everything short offensively of what he is supposed to do.

 

Instead of DH he should now be deemed AO: "automatic out". Of course, nothing taken away from his prime days when he shined. But today, throw in the towel.

[jacksonianmarch]

OPS is a much better tool. His overall OPS was poor for someone at his position.

[PWNdroia]

OPS is a much better tool. His overall OPS was poor for someone at his position.

 

See? Exactly. He was horrible last year.

[rhet]

Batting average is the worst measure of offensive production.

 

 

Really?

Worse than runs or RBIs?

 

 

[jacksonianmarch]

Burn...

[Dipre]

Really?

Worse than runs or RBIs?

 

 

 

They're rounded up into the same package of statistical fail, which you, of course, seem to love. (Even though runs aren't that bad)

 

Burn...

 

On what? They all suck, are you serious? Or are you going to tell me a statistic as fluctuating as BA is somehow a good measure of offensive production.

 

The only thing that "burned" is half of your brain cells.

[Dipre]

See? Exactly. He was horrible last year.

 

You continue to be stupid.

 

He was horrible the first two months of the season, that is correct, but he was one of the most productive players in baseball thereafter.

 

So the two months of suck automatically override the four months of awesome because it suits your retarded argument?

 

It's almost as dumb as Jacko's definition of "burn".

[boomer]

Regardless of the Ortiz dilemna, Lowell deserve a shot at starting at 3rd Base, or at DH this weekend against the Royals!

[rhet]

Batting avg is a measure of how good a hitter a player is. RBIs is a measure of how many runs he knocked in and runs is a measure of how many runs he scored. I still fail to see why you hate these basic statistics so much.

[Dipre]

Batting avg is a measure of how good a hitter a player is. RBIs is a measure of how many runs he knocked in and runs is a measure of how many runs he scored. I still fail to see why you hate these basic statistics so much.

 

Batting average is a measure of how good a hitter a player is?

 

There's a ton wrong with that statement.

 

Let me ask you a question, who's the better, more productive hitter? Adam Dunn or Juan Pierre? Who would you rather have playing for the Sox?

 

RBI's are an opportunistic statistic, debating that is like calling the sky red.

 

Runs correlate directly to the stat you hate the most, OBP, do they not?

 

I don't "hate" the basic stats, i just see them for what they are, which is "support". If you think you can base a convincing argument on a player's production based on batting average, i'd like to see it.

[rhet]

Personally, when I measure "production", I look at what has been produced. Runs can be produced by scoring them or by knocking them in. Percentages (i.e. batting avg, obp, ops) are not measures of production. They are percentages related to plate appearances.

[Dipre]

Personally' date=' when I measure "production", I look at what has been produced. Runs can be produced by scoring them or by knocking them in. Percentages (i.e. batting avg, obp, ops) are not measures of production. They are percentages related to plate appearances.[/quote']

 

Can't score runs if you're not on base. Can't drive in runs if people aren't on base ahead of you.

[rhet]

Can't score runs if you're not on base. Can't drive in runs if people aren't on base ahead of you.

 

It's important to have runners on base. It's more important to score them.

[Dipre]

It's important to have runners on base. It's more important to score them.

 

Can't score them if they're not on base. If they ARE on base, you can even score them by making outs. Can't score if you can't get on base. Arguing that is like calling "Water" "Air".

[redsoxrules]

Batting avg is a measure of how good a hitter a player is. RBIs is a measure of how many runs he knocked in and runs is a measure of how many runs he scored. I still fail to see why you hate these basic statistics so much.

 

so question....

 

so in your opinion , would you say Ortiz had a great year last with the fact that he had 99 RBI's ?

[rhet]

Can't score them if they're not on base. If they ARE on base' date=' you can even score them by making outs. Can't score if you can't get on base. Arguing that is like calling "Water" "Air".[/quote']

 

1. A hitter can score a run with nobody on base.

2. Even if a runner scores because the batter made an out, it's still an RBI. So the goal to "not make outs" is not always ideal by your own admission.

3. Again, a hitter can score a run with nobody one base. Of course, nobody was ever arguing that having baserunners is bad thing.