Comparing Red Sox and Yankees lineups.

[yankees228]

Which lineup do you think is better and why?

 

Ill give my opinion

C - V-Mart > Posada (Backups = push?)

1B - Push

2B - Push

SS - Jeter > Scutaro

3B - Arod > Beltre

LF Ellsbury > Gardner/Thames/Winn

CF - Push? I don't see much difference between Granderson/Cameron honestly, both hit homers, but have pretty low averages.

RF - Drew > Swisher.

DH - Nick Johnson > Ortiz (if he stays healthy and in that ball park, but if ortiz does what he did in 2nd half last year, watch out).

Seems pretty even, opinions?

 

I'd probably give Teixeira a slight edge over Youkilis, Pedroia a slight edge over Cano, Granderson an edge over Cameron, and I'd say the DHs are about even (so many question marks).

 

With that being said, while the overall lineups might look even the way you put it, the gaps at shortstop and third base are quite large. The Red Sox don't enjoy gaps of that size at any position.

 

*Talking strictly about offense.

[Spudboy]

So the discussion should be about batting order and the resulting production.

 

I did not see a "line-up" on this thread that accurately enumerates the actual sequence that either team uses. As well, other posters have made reference to pitchers and defense. I guess I'm not on an island here.

 

I live in a major league market where "Line-ups" are discussed for 3 of the 4 big league teams on a daily basis. Without fail, discussion always includes assessment of both defense and offense.

 

And it always has.

 

"It's that simple".

[Dipre]

I'd probably give Teixeira a slight edge over Youkilis, Pedroia a slight edge over Cano, Granderson an edge over Cameron, and I'd say the DHs are about even (so many question marks).

 

With that being said, while the overall lineups might look even the way you put it, the gaps at shortstop and third base are quite large. The Red Sox don't enjoy gaps of that size at any position.

 

*Talking strictly about offense.

 

It's quite simple: The Yankees have a better offense.

[Dipre]

So the discussion should be about batting order and the resulting production.

 

I did not see a "line-up" on this thread that accurately enumerates the actual sequence that either team uses. As well, other posters have made reference to pitchers and defense. I guess I'm not on an island here.

 

I live in a major league market where "Line-ups" are discussed for 3 of the 4 big league teams on a daily basis. Without fail, discussion always includes assessment of both defense and offense.

 

And it always has.

 

"It's that simple".

 

 

Then fight it out with OP, not me. What i said was simply an explanation of of why many people thought it was strictly about offensive production and you took it like i insulted your mother. Take the boxing gloves off, champ.

[yankees228]

So the discussion should be about batting order and the resulting production.

 

I did not see a "line-up" on this thread that accurately enumerates the actual sequence that either team uses. As well, other posters have made reference to pitchers and defense. I guess I'm not on an island here.

 

I live in a major league market where "Line-ups" are discussed for 3 of the 4 big league teams on a daily basis. Without fail, discussion always includes assessment of both defense and offense.

 

And it always has.

 

"It's that simple".

 

Spud makes a good point. When you're talking about how good a batter is compared to the league, you have to compare him to his peers, and that would be his positional group. However, when you're trying to compare two entire lineups, I think the best way to do this is by batting order.

 

With that being said, I do think Dipre is correct, that the OP was referring only to offense. However, it really doesn't matter, as we can easily make this thread about either one, or both.

[rhet]

 

Swisher: UZR -1.3, RAR 36.2, WAR 3.6

JD Drew:UZR 10.5, RAR 47.6, WAR 4.8

(UZR = fielding, RAR = runs above replacement, WAR = wins above replacement)

 

WAR...! - what is it good for?

Absolutely nothing!

Say it again...

 

 

:joke:

[Keeper]

The Yankees have a better lineup. No one is disputing that. But the Sox have the edge in pitching and defense. We'll see how it plays out.

[yankees228]

The Yankees have a better lineup. No one is disputing that. But the Sox have the edge in pitching and defense. We'll see how it plays out.

 

Do you mean all pitching, or just starting pitching? Because I think you need to separate bullpens from starting pitching when evaluating a team.

[Dojji]

sure, but if you separately analyze both facets of pitching, the Red Sox come ahead with both of them so it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

The Yankees have the best starter and they have the best reliever but we win on overall quality.

[Keeper]

sure, but if you separately analyze both facets of pitching, the Red Sox come ahead with both of them so it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

The Yankees have the best starter and they have the best reliever but we win on overall quality.

 

Took the words right out of my mouth.

[Dipre]

Both bullpens are a wash because of question marks IMO.

[Keeper]

That's fair. Under the premise that both bullpens are a wash and the Sox have the edge in SP, the Sox would then have a slight edge in overall pitching.

[yankees228]

sure, but if you separately analyze both facets of pitching, the Red Sox come ahead with both of them so it doesn't make much of a difference.

 

The Yankees have the best starter and they have the best reliever but we win on overall quality.

 

I think it's closer than you're making it out to be.

[jacksonianmarch]

Why even bother y228.

[Dipre]

Yankees: Massive offensive edge.

 

Red Sox: Slight pitching and significant defensive edge.

[Dipre]

Jesus f***ing Christ, someone shoot me now.

[Dojji]

I think it's closer than you're making it out to be.

 

I don't think I made the difference out to be particularly huge.

 

Sabathia and Lester aren't as far apart as Yankee fans like to imagine. The only clean Sabathia win is in Innings Pitched, everything else was within a reasonable margin of error last year.

 

And moving down past Sabathia, you really run out of guys to plug in well before Boston does, especially if you use Vazquez' whole body of work, rather than just hopewishfailfully believing he'll replicate the breakout year he had in a HR-suppressing park, pitching now in the biggest HR park east of Colorado.

 

You have no one who is going to match up directly against Beckett and Lackey. No, Burnett and Vazquez are not going to do it, and no, they are not going to be as close to Beckett-Lackey quality as Lester is to Sabathia quality. And remember, we're talking about two pitchers, not one.

 

Hughes and Buchholz I'd consider a wash. Hughes is more likely to have problems, because he has less successful starting experience in the AL East, but honestly either one of them could be a good pitcher and I'd consider them close enough to a wash.

 

That means that the Yankees need to make all their ground up on Wakefield and Daisuke v. Pettitte. :lol:

 

your only real hope to carry the day in a straight pitching comparison is to lean on Wins as a measure of pitcher value (:joke:) and pray for both an absolute Hughes breakout year and a rude welcome to the AL East for Lackey.

 

In the bullpen, I'd match Paps up against Mo without worrying about falling too far behind, and behind Mo you got problems. Robertson and Bard probably cancel each other out in terms of the upside and downside of rookie relievers, and you can say what you want about the Oki-Joba comparison, Oki has a much cleaner track record.

 

So that leaves Ramram, MDC and Atchison v. Aceves, Marte, Mitre. I think it's fairly obvious that if there's any advantages to be found here they're on the Boston side.

[yankees228]

I don't think I made the difference out to be particularly huge.

 

Sabathia and Lester aren't as far apart as Yankee fans like to imagine. The only clean Sabathia win is in Innings Pitched, everything else was within a reasonable margin of error last year.

 

And moving down past Sabathia, you really run out of guys to plug in well before Boston does, especially if you use Vazquez' whole body of work, rather than just hopewishfailfully believing he'll replicate the breakout year he had in a HR-suppressing park, pitching now in the biggest HR park east of Colorado.

 

You have no one who is going to match up directly against Beckett and Lackey. No, Burnett and Vazquez are not going to do it, and no, they are not going to be as close to Beckett-Lackey quality as Lester is to Sabathia quality. And remember, we're talking about two pitchers, not one.

 

Hughes and Buchholz I'd consider a wash. Hughes is more likely to have problems, because he has less successful starting experience in the AL East, but honestly either one of them could be a good pitcher and I'd consider them close enough to a wash.

 

That means that the Yankees need to make all their ground up on Wakefield and Daisuke v. Pettitte. :lol:

 

your only real hope to carry the day in a straight pitching comparison is to lean on Wins as a measure of pitcher value (:joke:) and pray for both an absolute Hughes breakout year and a rude welcome to the AL East for Lackey.

 

In the bullpen, I'd match Paps up against Mo without worrying about falling too far behind, and behind Mo you got problems. Robertson and Bard probably cancel each other out in terms of the upside and downside of rookie relievers, and you can say what you want about the Oki-Joba comparison, Oki has a much cleaner track record.

 

So that leaves Ramram, MDC and Atchison v. Aceves, Marte, Mitre. I think it's fairly obvious that if there's any advantages to be found here they're on the Boston side.

 

I should have made myself a bit clearer. My comment wasn't directed towards the starting rotations, only the bullpens, where I think it's a wash as of right now, with Joba having the potential to give the Yankees the edge.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dojji, a wise man (okay, it was Schilling) once said that the team who gets the most IP out of their starters will win the most games. The sox have the potential to be absolutely nasty. I think their 1-3, assuming they are healthy, could headline a rotation anywhere else. BUT, and this is a serious BUT, I think you have to look at this like a prospect. Ceiling and likelihood. I am pretty sure of what I am gonna get out of the yankees top 4 in the rotation. 190+IP from all 4, one ERA in the 3.2 range, the rest right around or above 4, and 200+ K's for 3 of them. They will all take the bump barring some catastrophic (read- UCL tear or freak injury) occurrence. For the sox, I am pretty sure that Lester will be a durable horse since he's done it two yrs running and has showed improvement rather than regression. The big question marks come after him. If Beckett is healthy for the entire yr, watch out. But he hasnt been that way since 2007. Lackey the same. DiceK is already injured. Wakefield is always hurt nowadays as well. So, if Lester, Beckett, and Lackey are all healthy and DiceK returns from his injury with the capability that he has shown glimpses of in the past, then I agree, the sox rotation is better. But, I think the likelihood that the sox stay healthy is small, which is why I'd have to call it a push/slight edge for NY.

[yankees228]

Dojji' date=' a wise man (okay, it was Schilling) once said that the team who gets the most IP out of their starters will win the most games. The sox have the potential to be absolutely nasty. I think their 1-3, assuming they are healthy, could headline a rotation anywhere else. BUT, and this is a serious BUT, I think you have to look at this like a prospect. Ceiling and likelihood. I am pretty sure of what I am gonna get out of the yankees top 4 in the rotation. 190+IP from all 4, one ERA in the 3.2 range, the rest right around or above 4, and 200+ K's for 3 of them. They will all take the bump barring some catastrophic (read- UCL tear or freak injury) occurrence. For the sox, I am pretty sure that Lester will be a durable horse since he's done it two yrs running and has showed improvement rather than regression. The big question marks come after him. If Beckett is healthy for the entire yr, watch out. But he hasnt been that way since 2007. Lackey the same. DiceK is already injured. Wakefield is always hurt nowadays as well. So, if Lester, Beckett, and Lackey are all healthy and DiceK returns from his injury with the capability that he has shown glimpses of in the past, then I agree, the sox rotation is better. But, I think the likelihood that the sox stay healthy is small, which is why I'd have to call it a push/slight edge for NY.[/quote']

 

Based on things Burnett has said and what he has done the past two years, I'm very confident that he is going to stay healthy. However, just know that he will be brought up, and even though I'm confident in him to stay healthy, it's a reasonable claim.

[jacksonianmarch]

It is a reasonable claim, but I also called Lester durable on here, and he's been that way for 2 yrs as well. I think 2 consecutive yrs of 200+IP is good enough to shed the fragile tag

[Dojji]

If Beckett is healthy for the entire yr' date=' watch out. But he hasnt been that way since 2007. Lackey the same. DiceK is already injured. Wakefield is always hurt nowadays as well. [/quote']

 

A. J. Burnett and Andy Pettitte are the model of pitcher health.

 

Also, going back to a part of the wall o'text I deleted, if you're counting on an ERA "near 4" from either Vazquez or Pettitte, you're stretching the definition of "near" to the breaking point. Both of them should be in 4.50 territory based on their body of work and what you can reasonably expect of players their age.

 

So, if Lester, Beckett, and Lackey are all healthy and DiceK returns from his injury with the capability that he has shown glimpses of in the past, then I agree, the sox rotation is better. But, I think the likelihood that the sox stay healthy is small, which is why I'd have to call it a push/slight edge for NY.

 

Because Red Sox pitchers get hurt and Yankees never do. Got it.

[jacksonianmarch]

Pettitte hasnt been healthy? You mean the guy who has thrown 194IP or more 5 straight seasons and 6 of the last 7? And an ERA near 4 isnt out of the question, IMO. Here are his ERA's from that last 3 yrs: 4.05, 4.54, 4.16. I would consider 2 of those to be near 4.

 

AJ Burnett has been over 200IP for 2 yrs running, something only one pitcher on your staff can claim (Lester). So any knock on his durability further entrenches my point.

[yankees228]

Pettitte has made over 30 starts the past five years, and has had an ERA "near" 4 in three of the last four years. Obviously he's a year older, but similar production wouldn't surprise me.

 

As for Vazquez, he has been a hot topic on this forum, but I consider him a question mark, rather than a locked in 4.5 ERA like many are assuming. Obviously he's not going to come close to last year's production, but considering what he did do last year, I don't think it's fair to just pencil him in for that 4.5 ERA. Like Jacko, I think an ERA near 4 is reasonable.

[Dojji]

Pettitte hasnt been healthy? You mean the guy who has thrown 194IP or more 5 straight seasons and 6 of the last 7? And an ERA near 4 isnt out of the question' date=' IMO. Here are his ERA's from that last 3 yrs: 4.05, 4.54, 4.16. I would consider 2 of those to be near 4. [/quote']

 

He's cheated the reaper longer than I thought he would, but the man is 37 years old.

 

AJ Burnett has been over 200IP for 2 yrs running, something only one pitcher on your staff can claim (Lester). So any knock on his durability further entrenches my point.

 

Only in your own head. Burnett is a hard thrower and his WHIP has gone up each of the last 2 years. Tthat means he's throwing a LOT of pitches. that's a shoulder injury waiting to happen.

[yankees228]

Dojji, you can make all the assumptions moving forward about Pettitte, but you questioned his health. That was the main point Jacko and I were responding to.

 

As for Burnett, someone throwing a lot of pitches doesn't necessarily mean they are going to get injured. Granted, he has had problems in the past, but he has had two straight healthy years, and he has talked about learning to control himself better on the mound as the reason for his clean bill of health. Sure, he could get hurt, but I really do believe he has overcome his past issues.

[jacksonianmarch]

And the proof is in the pudding. Back in his Florida days, Burnett would regularly register 100mph readings on the gun. Nowadays, he sits 93-95 with occasional 97mph FBs. The bottom line is that he isnt just rearing back and throwing anymore.

[Dojji]

Dojji' date=' you can make all the assumptions moving forward about Pettitte, but you questioned his health. That was the main point Jacko and I were responding to.[/quote']

 

Pettitte's elbow is a ticking time bomb. He's 37. What aren't you seeing here?

 

As for Burnett, someone throwing a lot of pitches doesn't necessarily mean they are going to get injured. Granted, he has had problems in the past, but he has had two straight healthy years, and he has talked about learning to control himself better on the mound as the reason for his clean bill of health. Sure, he could get hurt, but I really do believe he has overcome his past issues.

 

New Yankee Stadium is not going to be kind to Burnett as he ages, Righthanded power pitchers aren't a great fit with the park you have, unless you find a way to abate those air currents that draw the ball out to right field.

[Dojji]

And the proof is in the pudding. Back in his Florida days' date=' Burnett would regularly register 100mph readings on the gun. Nowadays, he sits 93-95 with occasional 97mph FBs. The bottom line is that he isnt just rearing back and throwing anymore.[/quote']

 

Or it could simply mean that as he moves into his mid 30's he doesn't have his old zip. Like, oh say, every power pitcher in the history of ever.

 

i remember you guys making the same argument about Kyle Farnsworth. I wasn't sold then, I'm not sold now.

[jacksonianmarch]

How is his elbow a ticking time bomb and anyone else's not? Cmon Dojji, you are grasping at straws here.

 

New Yankee Stadium isnt pleasant to ANYONE as they age. It's a hitters park.