Hughes wins 5th starter slot, Joba to the pen

[yankees228]

I remember reading a quote awhile back from a scout who said that Joba has Justin Verlander potential, but if everything failed, he would still be Jonathan Broxton.

 

I'm really not so sure everything failed, but considering this looks like a decision for the future, I really hope the scout is right.

[Dipre]

I expect dominance out of Joba from the bullpen.

 

I am very dissapointed that they made the right decision. Damn Yankees.

[Gom]

I'm talking about drafting.

 

The reason being is that the Yankees will always do well in the free agent market, especially in Latin America. The Yankees are the most branded product, and they have the most money. We're playing with a stacked deck.

 

In the draft...well, since we are a good team, we will always be at the bottom of the draft order. However, with our money, it would allow us to sign players that would normally not be available to us because of how they would price themselves. Case in point: Jeter. Jeter fell to the Yankees because of his contract demands and desire to play for the Yankees. A more recent example is Andrew Brackman.

 

For this reason, I think the draft is a huge indicator of the Front Office efficiency. Any fool can go spend a half a billion and get 3 superstar players.

 

However, looking at the Red Sox, who have [to the best of my knowledge] drafted Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Buchholz...and looking at who the Yankees have drafted in a similar spot...well, hats off to you guys.

 

You guys have showed you can compete without money. We haven't. That's the truth.

 

Going back to Joba...the guy should have been given the chance. Here is the logic...Hughes would have been limited. You could have used as a 3 inning a stint guy. Forget the stupid 8th inning role. Just stretch him out as the season went along. First month, 1 inning stint...2nd month, 2 inning stint...third month, 3 inning stints, and stay with that. Next year, phase him in to the rotation.

 

If Joba did well...well then, great. If he bombed, and it would really take about 2 months to see it, then you could throw Hughes in there and he would be at his limit at the end of the year because he would have been rarely used [innings-wise] for two months. What the Yankees did was guarantee another debacle with their 5th starter for the 2nd season.

 

Of course...this is said with the disclaimer that he has the endurance to go 7 innings. If they really feel that his shoulder can't hold up, then throw this right out of the window.

[italstallianion]

I'm talking about drafting.

 

The reason being is that the Yankees will always do well in the free agent market, especially in Latin America. The Yankees are the most branded product, and they have the most money. We're playing with a stacked deck.

 

In the draft...well, since we are a good team, we will always be at the bottom of the draft order. However, with our money, it would allow us to sign players that would normally not be available to us because of how they would price themselves. Case in point: Jeter. Jeter fell to the Yankees because of his contract demands and desire to play for the Yankees. A more recent example is Andrew Brackman.

 

For this reason, I think the draft is a huge indicator of the Front Office efficiency. Any fool can go spend a half a billion and get 3 superstar players.

 

However, looking at the Red Sox, who have [to the best of my knowledge] drafted Pedroia, Youkilis, Lester, Buchholz...and looking at who the Yankees have drafted in a similar spot...well, hats off to you guys.

 

You guys have showed you can compete without money. We haven't. That's the truth.

 

Going back to Joba...the guy should have been given the chance. Here is the logic...Hughes would have been limited. You could have used as a 3 inning a stint guy. Forget the stupid 8th inning role. Just stretch him out as the season went along. First month, 1 inning stint...2nd month, 2 inning stint...third month, 3 inning stints, and stay with that. Next year, phase him in to the rotation.

 

If Joba did well...well then, great. If he bombed, and it would really take about 2 months to see it, then you could throw Hughes in there and he would be at his limit at the end of the year because he would have been rarely used [innings-wise] for two months. What the Yankees did was guarantee another debacle with their 5th starter for the 2nd season.

 

Of course...this is said with the disclaimer that he has the endurance to go 7 innings. If they really feel that his shoulder can't hold up, then throw this right out of the window.

 

 

 

True, the Red Sox have been one of the best drafting teams and the Yankees have been towards the bottom, but the Yankees have been much better on the international prospect market than Boston has. Also the Yankees would have more prospects but they tend to trade them away (ie Vizcaino, Jackson, Tabata, Dunn, Kennedy etc)

[Gom]

True' date=' the Red Sox have been one of the best drafting teams and the Yankees have been towards the bottom, but the Yankees have been much better on the international prospect market than Boston has. Also the Yankees would have more prospects but they tend to trade them away (ie Vizcaino, Jackson, Tabata, Dunn, Kennedy etc)[/quote']

 

You know, I wouldn't be that upset if anyone they traded away was any good. That would mean we know what we are doing, and are more likely to trade more prospects as we were developing quality.

 

However, we are s*** when it comes to drafting. No one, except for Jacko, could ever argue that.

[jacksonianmarch]

That's not all true. We lost a lot of picks due to free agency signings. Also, we didn't change drafting budgets until 2006. We are just starting to see the fruits of our drafting. Hughes in 04. Ajax and Gardner in 2005. Joba, Robertson, Melanson, and Kennedy in 06. And we'll see more from 07 on. One thing we didn't draft well was offense, but starting in 07, we finally started taking some high upside offensive talent

[Gom]

That's not all true. We lost a lot of picks due to free agency signings. Also' date=' we didn't change drafting budgets until 2006. We are just starting to see the fruits of our drafting. Hughes in 04. Ajax and Gardner in 2005. Joba, Robertson, Melanson, and Kennedy in 06. And we'll see more from 07 on. One thing we didn't draft well was offense, but starting in 07, we finally started taking some high upside offensive talent[/quote']

Even you can't debate the fact that when it comes to drafting, the Red Sox have embarrassed us.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree on that premise only due to their head start. Look at the guys they have in the majors...

 

2001- Kevin Youkilis, Kelly Shoppach

2002- Jon Lester, Brandon Moss

2003- David Murphy, Jon Papelbon

2004- Dustin Pedroia, Cla Meredith

2005- Clay Buchholz, Craig Hansen, Jed Lowrie, Jacoby Ellsbury, Michael Bowden

 

See, during that span, we drafted two players who are impact players (Hughes, AJax) and one guy who looks like he'll start in LF this yr for us (Gardner). The sox bumped up their scouting and drafting budget before we did and this is why they have a head start.

[Dipre]

You should agree with the premise because the premise is correct. It's not rocket science.

[jacksonianmarch]

We'll see who from the group from 2006 on is more successful overall in the bigs. Right now, with Joba in the setup role, Robertson in a set-up role, McCutchen starting in Pitt and Kennedy starting in Arizona, I think we have a head start

[italstallianion]

I agree on that premise only due to their head start. Look at the guys they have in the majors...

 

2001- Kevin Youkilis, Kelly Shoppach

2002- Jon Lester, Brandon Moss

2003- David Murphy, Jon Papelbon

2004- Dustin Pedroia, Cla Meredith

2005- Clay Buchholz, Craig Hansen, Jed Lowrie, Jacoby Ellsbury, Michael Bowden

 

See, during that span, we drafted two players who are impact players (Hughes, AJax) and one guy who looks like he'll start in LF this yr for us (Gardner). The sox bumped up their scouting and drafting budget before we did and this is why they have a head start.

 

 

AJax hasn't even played in a game yet and Gardner might be the worst player on your team, which is only because Kennedy was the worst player on the team and got traded. How does one believe half of the crap you believe, let alone post? The Red Sox are miles ahead of the Yankees in drafting. If you want to debate IFA's, then that's fine. But even the most ignorant and stubborn Yankee fans can't debate drafting. You'd come out of the fight with a mushroom shaped bruise on your face.

[italstallianion]

We'll see who from the group from 2006 on is more successful overall in the bigs. Right now' date=' with Joba in the setup role, Robertson in a set-up role, McCutchen starting in Pitt and Kennedy starting in Arizona, I think we have a head start[/quote']

 

 

Looks like it's

 

Aaron Bates

Dan Bard

Justin Masterson

Dustin Richardson

Josh Reddick

(and later Lars Anderson)

 

 

vs. Joba Chamberlain

David Robertson

McCutchen (not the great one)

and Ian Kennedy.

[jacksonianmarch]

From 2006 on, you are missing quite a lot.

 

2006 Yankees draft

MLB players

Ian Kennedy- likely 4th starter for the Diamondbacks

Joba Chamberlain- 5th starter in 2009 and set-up man in 2010 for NYY

David Robertson- set-up man for 2010

Mark Melancon- cup of coffee in 2009, will be up in some capacity in 2010

Daniel McCutchen- 5th starter for the Pirates in 2010

 

Others of note:

Dellin Betances- coming off TJS, still has more ceiling than anyone

Kevin Russo- just got beat out by Ramiro Pena for utility guy, will see some time in the Bronx in 2010

George Kontos- recovering from TJS, likely to be in the bigs in some capacity in 2011 as a starter or relief

Zach McAllister- will be the first starter called up from the minors, will debut at some point in 2010.

Colin Curtis- afterthought turned back into prospect with strong showing in AFL and ST. Might be a 4th OFer by the end of 2010 or 2011

 

Out of 1 draft, that's 3 major league starting pitchers and 2 major league relievers for 2010 alone. By the end of 2010, it is likely that 8 players from the 2006 draft will have major league experience. That is a ridiculous amount of talent from one draft.

 

From 2007 on, there is a lot of talent, but nobody has hit the bigs yet. None of the drafts are 2006 level drafts, but they all have very promising players. From Romine, Brackman, and Suttle from 2007, to the very solid 2008 draft (even without Gerrit Cole) to the very promising 2009 draft. A lot needs to bear our, but 2006 was one hell of a draft, akin to the Sox 2005 draft, which restocked their farm quickly. The problem in NY is, that we dont break our guys in quickly enough, AND, we have been later to the game. Trust me, the drafts from 2006 on will yield just as much talent.

 

The premise of the INTL market holds true, though. The Yankees have always been the organization for INTL signees because of their name and their cash flow. From Rivera and Mendoza, to Montero, Aceves, Cano, Wang, etc, we have always scouted well overseas.

[riverside sluggers]

Kevin Russo beat out for utility job, and he is listed in the group of ridiculous talent lol

 

Ooh wow McCutchen will be the 5th starter for the Pirates

[italstallianion]

From 2006 on, you are missing quite a lot.

 

2006 Yankees draft

MLB players

Ian Kennedy- likely 4th starter for the Diamondbacks

Joba Chamberlain- 5th starter in 2009 and set-up man in 2010 for NYY

David Robertson- set-up man for 2010

Mark Melancon- cup of coffee in 2009, will be up in some capacity in 2010

Daniel McCutchen- 5th starter for the Pirates in 2010

 

Others of note:

Dellin Betances- coming off TJS, still has more ceiling than anyone

Kevin Russo- just got beat out by Ramiro Pena for utility guy, will see some time in the Bronx in 2010

George Kontos- recovering from TJS, likely to be in the bigs in some capacity in 2011 as a starter or relief

Zach McAllister- will be the first starter called up from the minors, will debut at some point in 2010.

Colin Curtis- afterthought turned back into prospect with strong showing in AFL and ST. Might be a 4th OFer by the end of 2010 or 2011

 

Out of 1 draft, that's 3 major league starting pitchers and 2 major league relievers for 2010 alone. By the end of 2010, it is likely that 8 players from the 2006 draft will have major league experience. That is a ridiculous amount of talent from one draft.

 

From 2007 on, there is a lot of talent, but nobody has hit the bigs yet. None of the drafts are 2006 level drafts, but they all have very promising players. From Romine, Brackman, and Suttle from 2007, to the very solid 2008 draft (even without Gerrit Cole) to the very promising 2009 draft. A lot needs to bear our, but 2006 was one hell of a draft, akin to the Sox 2005 draft, which restocked their farm quickly. The problem in NY is, that we dont break our guys in quickly enough, AND, we have been later to the game. Trust me, the drafts from 2006 on will yield just as much talent.

 

The premise of the INTL market holds true, though. The Yankees have always been the organization for INTL signees because of their name and their cash flow. From Rivera and Mendoza, to Montero, Aceves, Cano, Wang, etc, we have always scouted well overseas.

 

 

If you noticed, which you didn't because otherwise you wouldn't have posted, I was talking about solely the 2006 draft. Also, I was only counting talent that hit the majors, or at least pitched in the majors. Also, note that the Giants and Red Sox were tied for the best draft GPA while the Yankees were near the bottom. It seems that you're alone in this argument, as you think everyone that graced pinstripes is the second coming of Jesus. Seriously, is there anyone more delusional about the Yankees farm team than you are? When GOM bails on your a**, you know you're up a creek.

[riverside sluggers]

In that group I see 2 back end of the rotation starters, and 2 pitching prospects that has needed Tommy John surgery. And positional prospects that are best served to be utility guys

[italstallianion]

In that group I see 2 back end of the rotation starters' date=' and 2 pitching prospects that has needed Tommy John surgery. And positional prospects that are best served to be utility guys[/quote']

 

 

And in Jacko's world, they are 4 ace starters and a super utility gold glover.

[yankees228]

Now, I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but Jacko makes an interest point (in direct response to Gom's main point) that has been overlooked by subsequent posts.

 

Gom said that the Red Sox have shown they can compete without money, while the Yankees haven't. If Jacko is correct when he states the the Red Sox bumped up their draft budget while the Yankees did not, then, once again, it does come back to money.

[Dipre]

If you combine the Sox drafting, INTL, and player payroll, it wouldn't have reached the Yanks' player expense payroll alone. You'rre trying to justify the unjustifiable.

[yankees228]

If you combine the Sox drafting' date=' INTL, and player payroll, it wouldn't have reached the Yanks' player expense payroll[b'] alone[/b]. You'rre trying to justify the unjustifiable.

 

Gom's point about the draft was that the Red Sox have had more success than the Yankees without the influence of money. My lone point (nothing more to it) was that, if Jacko is correct, then Gom's logic is flawed. I'm not trying to justify anything, simply stating a fact.

[italstallianion]

Gom's point about the draft was that the Red Sox have had more success than the Yankees without the influence of money. My lone point (nothing more to it) was that' date=' if Jacko is correct, then Gom's logic is flawed. I'm not trying to justify anything, simply stating a fact.[/quote']

 

 

 

I think the fact is somewhere in the middle. The Red Sox obviously spend money on the draft, but there is a huge discrepancy between the Sox and Yankees spending when you look at drafting and IFA's/FA's, especially FA's. The success of the drafts; however, is not debatable.

[yankees228]

I think the fact is somewhere in the middle. The Red Sox obviously spend money on the draft' date=' but there is a huge discrepancy between the Sox and Yankees spending when you look at drafting and IFA's/FA's, especially FA's. The success of the drafts; however, is not debatable.[/quote']

 

I don't disagree. All I'm saying is that, if Jacko is correct, it would appear that one of the main reasons the Red Sox have had more success than the Yankees in the draft is money. Gom either wasn't aware of this, or chose to ignore it, but either way, it creates a major flaw in Gom's point.

 

Again, I'm not talking about each team's overall financial situation. I'm only referring to money used on the draft, and how it might have influenced the outcome (once again, in direct response to Gom's point about the lack of money used to influence draft results).

[Dipre]

I don't disagree. All I'm saying is that, if Jacko is correct, it would appear that one of the main reasons the Red Sox have had more success than the Yankees in the draft is money. Gom either wasn't aware of this, or chose to ignore it, but either way, it creates a major flaw in Gom's point.

 

Again, I'm not talking about each team's overall financial situation. I'm only referring to money used on the draft, and how it might have influenced the outcome (once again, in direct response to Gom's point about the lack of money used to influence draft results).

 

Gom's point, IIRC was that the Sox had shown they could "win without money" as in without completely ravaging the FA market. In that context, most of the teams in the league spend a lot of money on the draft, but can't buy as many FA's as the Yanks and Sox. Take Oakland, Minnesota and Texas, for instance.

[yankees228]

Gom's point' date=' IIRC was that the Sox had shown they could "win without money" as in without completely ravaging the FA market. In that context, most of the teams in the league spend a lot of money on the draft, but can't buy as many FA's as the Yanks and Sox. Take Oakland, Minnesota and Texas, for instance.[/quote']

 

That's fair, but again, if the Red Sox spent more money than the Yankees did on the draft, it would stand to reason that they might draft better players. It's a factor that Gom completely ignored, or wasn't aware of.

[Keeper]

The Yankees shell out the same amount of money towards draft picks and international free agents as the Red Sox. Their scouts are just not as sharp.

[yankees228]

According to Jacko the Red Sox had a higher drafting and scouting budget than the Yankees up until 2006. If this is true, it would help explain (it wouldn't be the only reason) why the Red Sox had better drafts.

[italstallianion]

According to Jacko the Red Sox had a higher drafting and scouting budget than the Yankees up until 2006. If this is true' date=' it would help explain (it wouldn't be the only reason) why the Red Sox had better drafts.[/quote']

 

 

 

Assuming Jacko is right (which is a tough assumption), then I agree with you fully. It would help explain the discrepancy (until 2006), but there are indeed a multitude of other factors. Then again that same logic could be used for the reverse argument in the case of international prospects. I highly doubt that the Red Sox and Yankees spend the same amount there either.

[yankees228]

Assuming Jacko is right (which is a tough assumption)' date=' then I agree with you fully. It would help explain the discrepancy (until 2006), but there are indeed a multitude of other factors. Then again that same logic could be used for the reverse argument in the case of international prospects. I highly doubt that the Red Sox and Yankees spend the same amount there either.[/quote']

 

Absolutely, I agree completely. And you're right, my whole argument (which I think I've made clear in each post) is contingent on Jacko being correct. If he's not, then disregard every one of my posts on the topic.

[jacksonianmarch]

Now, I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but Jacko makes an interest point (in direct response to Gom's main point) that has been overlooked by subsequent posts.

 

Gom said that the Red Sox have shown they can compete without money, while the Yankees haven't. If Jacko is correct when he states the the Red Sox bumped up their draft budget while the Yankees did not, then, once again, it does come back to money.

 

The Red Sox draft budget jumped up in 2002 prior to Theo's rise to fame in 2003. George was never a believer in the draft for some reason or another and essentially used it for trade pieces and for guys who could win at all levels. Winning the WS wasnt enough for George. He wanted every single level to win championships. Well, his strategy was absolutely abysmal. NY had one of the lowest draft budgets in baseball from 96 through 2002 and didnt start seeing a rise until 2004 with Hughes signing for a million dollars. In 2005, Cashman dropped back a bit more to sign Austin Jackson and a few other flameouts, but the budget in 2006 nearly doubled. Funny thing is, that was the yr that Cashman threatened to walk away and eventually won full control of the team. Ever since then, he has spent over $5 mil in every season to sign players.

 

Here are the yankee draft budget numbers from yesteryear...

 

2003- $3.8 mil

2004- $4.8 mil

2005- $3.7 mil

2006- $6.7 mil

2007- $8.0 mil

2008- $5.1 mil (remember, Gerrit Cole was pick #1 and was to be alotted about 5 mil to sign)

2009- $7.6 mil

 

2006 was the first time NY broke the $5 mil mark, while the sox broke it in 2003, 2005, and 2006. But since 2006, the Yankees have been over $5 mil and would have been over 6 mil every yr if Cole signed the lucrative contract he was offered.

 

The INTL forum was something George believed in, since he was always a fan of the shiny object that you could just out-cash someone for. Hence why we have been ridiculously good in the INTL forum. From Ramiro Mendoza, Mariano Rivera, El Duque, Robinson Cano, Chien Ming Wang, Alfredo Aceves and other guys down the pipe in Banuelos, Montero and many, many others.

 

The big thing that baseball is moving to address now is the signing bonus issue, because the way the sox and yankees are starting to work will essentially mean that the minor league AND major league talent will start to gravitate toward the bigger markets. Players making it known that they will need X dollars to sign in the draft, watching them fall then sign in Boston or NY. INTL players signing with the two rivals as well for the biggest dollar. The fact that both of these teams are using their financial muscle in the amateur forum now is doom for the rest of baseball

[jacksonianmarch]

In that group I see 2 back end of the rotation starters' date=' and 2 pitching prospects that has needed Tommy John surgery. And positional prospects that are best served to be utility guys[/quote']

 

Most teams are thrilled if they get 1 regular out of a single season's draft. The fact that NY has a closer in wait in Joba, two major league starting pitchers in Kennedy and McCutchen, one setup man in Robertson and a promising young pitcher in Melancon is a great, great draft. Especially for a team that didnt pick until #21. And the TJ thing is unpredictable and exactly why you need a lot of pitching prospects since injury is so common.