Related note to W.S. celebration

[Lester82]

It was "bought" because the improvement that lead directly to the WS championship was provided by the big 3.

 

Exactly.

 

This Yankees team wasn't even in the playoffs last year. They go out and buy Sabathia, AJ Burnett and Teixeira in the offseason and BOOM, World Series!

 

Now the 2007 Red Sox were coming off a playoff-less year, but you could argue that Lugo, Drew, Matsuzaka were not what brought them back to glory. 2 of those 3 were nice additions, but it was about the rebound of Josh Beckett.

 

Beckett, acquired via trade and embarassing in his first season with Boston, drove the Red Sox 2007 postseason. (Along with some good contributions from ROY winner Pedroia, solid first baseman Youkilis, Papelbon, and getting late spark from Crisp being benched in favor of an emerging Ellsbury.)

[yankees228]

Lester, in response to your post, I'll post this once more. Not sure if you saw it, but if you did, you're only rehashing things that have already been said, instead of responding to a legitimate counter argument.

 

I don't necessarily agree with that. While Sabathia was great in the postseason, they had a guy that matched his production last year, and they had a guy that in 2006 and 2007 came very close. Burnett was just above average during the regular season, and had an up and down postseason. Teixeira was great this year, but Giambi was solid last year. Teixeira was a huge upgrade defensively, but he also had a bad postseason.

 

Those three guys had a big impact this year, but to make a definitive statement about them being the difference is certainly debatable. Lets take a look at other guys who contributed to making the difference.

 

Derek Jeter had his best year since 2006, and increased his OPS from last year by 100 points. He also showed drastic improvement defensively.

 

Johnny Damon had the best year of his career.

 

While Alex Rodriguez, mainly due to injury, didn't have as good a regular season as he usually does, he had a fantastic postseason, something that he hadn't done yet in New York (this represented one of the biggest things that separated this postseason from past postseasons).

 

Hideki Matsui had one of the best years of his career, and improved drastically from last year.

 

Jorge Posada rebounded from a year that he missed most of, and had one of the better years of his career.

 

Nick Swisher had a career year.

 

Robinson Cano had one of the best years of his career, and after posting an 86 OPS+ last year, he rebounded with a 129 OPS+ this year.

 

Melky Cabrera had over a 100 point OPS increase from last year.

 

The bullpen, during the regular season, was probably the best the Yankees have had since their previous championship years.

 

The three free agents, along with a lot of other guys, helped make the difference this year.

[jacksonianmarch]

y228 is right on the money here. Yes, we bought 3 players who were key cogs in the machine. But I think an even bigger factor was the resurgence of the players we already had. Pettitte had a very good year. Jeter played on a career yr level. Posada went back to being Posada. And the rest y228 has already profiled.

 

There were two things that put us over the top. The first was having 3 reliable pitchers in the rotation. The second was filling the black hole at the catchers position with a bat that was capable of being a middle of the order stick in Posada. Posada's resurgence as well as Matsui's resurgence left little for the bottom of the order guys to do. In the lower pressure environment, Cano had the second best yr of his career and Melky had a career yr. That helps keep the line moving. When we monkeyed around with Cano in the 5 hole or Melky as leadoff or batting second like we did at times in 2008, they struggled.

 

Those two things allowed everything else to fall into place. I already profiled the lineup, but having three pitchers regularly hand the ball to the pen in or after the 7th inning was clutch. Our pen in 2008 actually was pretty good, but you cannot be giving the ball to them in the 5th inning on a regular basis like we did that yr with Ponson, Rasner and other useless retreads. In a sense we were lucky. In another sense (Wang) we werent. But having 60% of the games be pitched by the same three guys was huge.

[ORS]

Simple question: Does the resurgence win you the division, nevermind winning it all, but the division, without the 3 pickups? According to you, that was the bigger factor in their improvement, and they improved by 14 games from 2008 to 2009 (89 wins to 103 wins). According to the numbers, your answer should be "yes", because even a 50/50 split for the two factors gets them to 96 wins, one more than the Sox. You'd have a hard time convincing me that you would win the division without those 3 players, though.

 

I agree with you about the importance of having your pitchers go deep into games, but you conveniently don't consider that 2/3 of those pitchers were part of the 3 big additions. Yeah, having current roster players perform better helped, but the big, dynamic change was the 3 additions, and it isn't particularly close, IMO.

[jacksonianmarch]

We wouldnt win the division without those three if we replaced them with internal candidates. That much is true. But we dont win the world series without the resurgence of the guys we already had

[Dipre]

We wouldnt win the division without those three if we replaced them with internal candidates. That much is true. But we dont win the world series without the resurgence of the guys we already had

 

Question:

 

The reason we say the championship is "bought" is because without the big 3 you don't win the WS.

 

This has already been admitted. So why are you looking for escape routes to what has already been proved?

 

Honest question.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have never denied that we bought a world series. Just like sox fans shouldnt deny that they bought 2 world series.

[Dipre]

I have never denied that we bought a world series. Just like sox fans shouldnt deny that they bought 2 world series.

 

:lol::lol::lol:

[yankees228]

Question:

 

The reason we say the championship is "bought" is because without the big 3 you don't win the WS.

 

This has already been admitted. So why are you looking for escape routes to what has already been proved?

 

Honest question.

 

Then by the same logic, how did the Red Sox not "buy" their 2007 championship? In my opinion, they didn't, but by your logic they did.

[Paradisecity]

Weren't our main acquisitions for the 2007 WS gotten via trade? I don't think Lugo was the difference maker. Drew is the only FA guy I can think of off the top of my head...

[yankees228]

Simple question: Does the resurgence win you the division, nevermind winning it all, but the division, without the 3 pickups? According to you, that was the bigger factor in their improvement, and they improved by 14 games from 2008 to 2009 (89 wins to 103 wins). According to the numbers, your answer should be "yes", because even a 50/50 split for the two factors gets them to 96 wins, one more than the Sox. You'd have a hard time convincing me that you would win the division without those 3 players, though.

 

I agree with you about the importance of having your pitchers go deep into games, but you conveniently don't consider that 2/3 of those pitchers were part of the 3 big additions. Yeah, having current roster players perform better helped, but the big, dynamic change was the 3 additions, and it isn't particularly close, IMO.

 

This team improved drastically from last year to this year, in almost every single facet of the game. The three additions were part of that, absolutely, but they were far from the entire story. If some of the guys in this lineup don't have the resurgence that they ended up having, they don't win the division. If A-Rod doesn't have a huge postseason, they probably don't win the World Series. If Pettitte doesn't really step it up in the second half, they don't pull away from Boston, and they probably don't win the World Series. If the bullpen didn't improve (especially the emergence of Phil Hughes, which represented the turning point of the year in my opinion), they don't win the division. Going into the year, many people talked about how the Red Sox had a significant bullpen advantage over the Yankees. Over the course of the season, the Yankees significantly closed that gap. That was an enormous contributor. There were just so many things that were different from last year, and years before that, that it is impossible to narrow it down to just three players. Those guys were immensely important to this team, without a doubt, but so many other things were as well. For you guys to just select Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira as the main difference, above all everything else, well, it's dishonest.

[yankees228]

Weren't our main acquisitions for the 2007 WS gotten via trade? I don't think Lugo was the difference maker. Drew is the only FA guy I can think of off the top of my head...

 

Drew and Matsuzaka were two significant pieces of that team. See, so many other guys on that team stepped up, and that's why I don't say they bought the 2007 championship. Granted, Drew and Matsuzaka didn't have the impact that Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira had, but considering the Boston Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs in 2006, it's easy to label those two the difference makers. By the logic of some here, not my own, the Boston Red Sox bought their 2007 championship.

[Paradisecity]

We did kinda have a couple injuries/shut down the entire team in 2006.

[Dipre]

Then by the same logic' date=' how did the Red Sox not "buy" their 2007 championship? In my opinion, they didn't, but by your logic they did.[/quote']

 

When the Red Sox spend $450 million on the 3 FA's on any given year's market, you can tell me they bought a championship.

 

The biggest contract awarded that offseason was given by the Sox, with their 8-year, 136 million dollar contract to Alfonso Soriano. Carlos Lee also received a $100 million dollar deal.

 

And who ended up signing Roger Clemens to an absurd one-year deal money-wise? Not the Sox either.

 

There were also many deals that trumped Julio Lugo's:

 

Gary Matthews, Juan Pierre and Jason Schmidt comes to mind.

 

If you take away the posting fee (the holy grail for Yankee fans), the Sox made a splash with Drew, and signed a couple semi-big contracts, but they didn't absolutely blow up the FA market by signing the three biggest FA's and tripling what anyone else spent in the offseason.

[Dipre]

This team improved drastically from last year to this year' date=' in almost every single facet of the game. The three additions were part of that, absolutely, but they were far from the entire story. If some of the guys in this lineup don't have the resurgence that they ended up having, they don't win the division. If A-Rod doesn't have a huge postseason, they probably don't win the World Series. If Pettitte doesn't really step it up in the second half, they don't pull away from Boston, and they probably don't win the World Series. If the bullpen didn't improve (especially the emergence of Phil Hughes, which represented the turning point of the year in my opinion), they don't win the division. Going into the year, many people talked about how the Red Sox had a significant bullpen advantage over the Yankees. Over the course of the season, the Yankees significantly closed that gap. That was an enormous contributor. There were just so many things that were different from last year, and years before that, that it is impossible to narrow it down to just three players. Those guys were immensely important to this team, without a doubt, but so many other things were as well. For you guys to just select Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira as the main difference, above all everything else, well, it's dishonest.[/quote']

 

It's dishonest because it suits your interest.

 

No one is arguing how some of the other Yankees have huge years.

 

The argument is that if you take away the big 3, even with the increased production, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

 

The baseball fan in you knows this, the Yankee fan denies it vehemently.

 

I'm not saying i don't think the championship is legit, i'm saying it cost $450 million dollars.

[Dipre]

Drew and Matsuzaka were two significant pieces of that team. See' date=' so many other guys on that team stepped up, and that's why I don't say they bought the 2007 championship. Granted, Drew and Matsuzaka didn't have the impact that Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira had, but considering the Boston Red Sox didn't even make the playoffs in 2006, it's easy to label those two the difference makers. By the logic of some here, not my own, the Boston Red Sox bought their 2007 championship.[/quote']

 

Drew had a barely above replacement level year in RF.

 

Matsuzaka's production wasn't a deal-breaker either.

 

Now THIS is dishonest.

[yankees228]

It's dishonest because it suits your interest.

 

No one is arguing how some of the other Yankees have huge years.

 

The argument is that if you take away the big 3, even with the increased production, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

 

The baseball fan in you knows this, the Yankee fan denies it vehemently.

 

I'm not saying i don't think the championship is legit, i'm saying it cost $450 million dollars.

 

The problem I have is that you guys are saying the three free agents were what made the difference. A lot of different things made the difference, and I don't think those three free agents should stand out above the rest.

[ORS]

This team improved drastically from last year to this year' date=' in almost every single facet of the game. The three additions were part of that, absolutely, but they were far from the entire story. If some of the guys in this lineup don't have the resurgence that they ended up having, they don't win the division. If A-Rod doesn't have a huge postseason, they probably don't win the World Series. If Pettitte doesn't really step it up in the second half, they don't pull away from Boston, and they probably don't win the World Series. If the bullpen didn't improve (especially the emergence of Phil Hughes, which represented the turning point of the year in my opinion), they don't win the division. Going into the year, many people talked about how the Red Sox had a significant bullpen advantage over the Yankees. Over the course of the season, the Yankees significantly closed that gap. That was an enormous contributor. There were just so many things that were different from last year, and years before that, that it is impossible to narrow it down to just three players. Those guys were immensely important to this team, without a doubt, but so many other things were as well. For you guys to just select Sabathia, Burnett, and Teixeira as the main difference, above all everything else, well, it's dishonest.[/quote']

I agree that A-Rod's postseason contributed in a big way to their winning the series, but that wasn't my question. My question was about them winning the division with the resurgence alone. Pettitte was a key contributor, but while he was better in the 2nd half this year, he was better in the 1st half last year. Overall, he was better this year, but not by a margin large enough to make me think you win the division without the other 3 additions. The bullpen in 2008 pitched to 3.79 ERA, 2009?......3.91. That's about a wash, but, still, worse when you count the beans.

 

It's not dishonest to call those 3 the driving force behind the improvement the Yankees experienced, because, well, they were.

[yankees228]

Drew had a barely above replacement level year in RF.

 

Matsuzaka's production wasn't a deal-breaker either.

 

Now THIS is dishonest.

 

And I would argue that Burnett was just above average.

 

Sabathia's 2009 season wasn't that much of an improvement over Mussina's 2008 season.

 

Teixeira had an excellent year, and it was better than Giambi's 2008, but Giambi was not one of the problems last year, and he was very productive offensively during his time in New York. First base has never really been a problem for the Yankees this decade, with the exceptions of 2004 and 2007.

 

I know I've said this before, but I don't think this argument is going anywhere. I feel like you're ignoring key factors, and you feel like I'm ignoring key factors. Unfortunately, we're not going to cover any new ground in this argument, so our opinions are going to likely say the same. I think, at this point, we might as well just call it quits on this loss. Fair enough?

[yankees228]

I agree that A-Rod's postseason contributed in a big way to their winning the series, but that wasn't my question. My question was about them winning the division with the resurgence alone. Pettitte was a key contributor, but while he was better in the 2nd half this year, he was better in the 1st half last year. Overall, he was better this year, but not by a margin large enough to make me think you win the division without the other 3 additions. The bullpen in 2008 pitched to 3.79 ERA, 2009?......3.91. That's about a wash, but, still, worse when you count the beans.

 

It's not dishonest to call those 3 the driving force behind the improvement the Yankees experienced, because, well, they were.

 

Well, when I said the bullpen, I should have added the caveat that I was referring to the back end, and what they did in the second half of the season (when they pulled away from the Red Sox). Obviously lack of production from guys like Jose Veras and Edwar Ramirez earlier in the year is going to inflate the numbers. I wasn't clear enough there, my fault.

 

Anyway, my only issue is that I don't think it's fair to single those three guys out, because so many different players played an enormous role in the turnaround from 2008 to 2009. I've already stated the reasons why I feel this way, and as I said to Dipre, it just seems like we keep going over the same stuff. At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree I guess.

[Dipre]

About the Red Sox and "buying" the 2007 championship, did you know that the Cubs spent over 200 million dollars in FA's as well?

 

And that other teams (Houston, Dodgers) spent well more than 100 million too?

 

Chicago Cubs

 

Mark DeRosa IF Rangers Cubs Signed to a 3-year $13M deal

 

Ted Lilly LHP Blue Jays Cubs Signed for 4 years, $40M

 

Jason Marquis RHP Cardinals Cubs Signed for 3 years, $21M

 

Alfonso Soriano OF Nationals Cubs Signed for 8 years, $136M

 

The difference in FA spending between the Sox and the Cubs was less than 40 million dollars.

 

What was the difference between the Yanks and the closest FA spender?

[yankees228]

Right, but the argument seemed to be that the Yankees "bought" their championship because the three free agents they acquired last offseason were the driving force behind their improvement. This is what I disagree with.

 

I only brought the Red Sox into this (again, I don't think they bought their championship), because they also went out and signed some key free agents in the offseason before 2007, very much like the Yankees did before 2009 (albeit on a much smaller scale).

[Dipre]

Right, but the argument seemed to be that the Yankees "bought" their championship because the three free agents they acquired last offseason were the driving force behind their improvement. This is what I disagree with.

 

I only brought the Red Sox into this (again, I don't think they bought their championship), because they also went out and signed some key free agents in the offseason before 2007, very much like the Yankees did before 2009 (albeit on a much smaller scale).

 

That is the key to the entire argument.

[TheMino007]

Yankee fans are just too deep in the forest and too biased to see where the rest of the country is coming from. 3 hired guns which the Yanks didn't have last year are the reason why the Yankees bought that championship. They blew away every other team in terms of spending and in a recession in which players weren't getting as much and teams where spending as much the Yankees spent $450 on 3 players.

[jacksonianmarch]

That is the key to the entire argument.

 

So since the sox only spent $209 million in one offseason, that doesnt mean they bought their championship? I find it funny that sox fans throw the "bought a championship" line. The sox did that twice. Good for them. Good for NY for the win this yr. When a small market team wins a championship with all cheap, home grown or scrap heap talent, then I will truly say that they didnt "buy" their championship (see 2003 Marlins). Otherwise, the championships are bought.

[BoSox21]

So since the sox only spent $209 million in one offseason' date=' that doesnt mean they bought their championship? I find it funny that sox fans throw the "bought a championship" line. The sox did that twice. Good for them. Good for NY for the win this yr. When a small market team wins a championship with all cheap, home grown or scrap heap talent, then I will truly say that they didnt "buy" their championship (see 2003 Marlins). Otherwise, the championships are bought.[/quote']

 

So you're comparing the contributions of Sabathia, Burnett and Teixeira towards the Yankees championship with the contributions of Drew, Lugo and Dice-K towards the Red Sox championship? Really?

[26 to 6]

I know but it's not like they decided to rape the free agent markets back then. Paul O'Neill wasn't a very good player at all before going to NY making him a shrewd pickup' date=' Tino was traded for, Bernie was drafted, Jeter was drafted, Rivera was drafted, etc.[/quote']

Paulie was a pretty good player in Cincy, just not a marquee name because of where he played, and he admittedly certainly wasn't on the level that he rose to when he came to the Yanks. But we did have to trade an All Star in Roberto Kelly to get him.

 

Tino was traded for, Bernie was signed as an international FA, Jeter was drafted, and Mo was signed as an international FA; not drafted. I know it's all apples and oranges, but I'm just sayin...

 

I think the Yankees won because they had superior game management.

lol

...that's exactly what it was

 

We did kinda have a couple injuries/shut down the entire team in 2006.

Really? What does that mean? Would you like me to recap all of the injuries the Yankees endured last season?

 

It's dishonest because it suits your interest.

 

No one is arguing how some of the other Yankees have huge years.

 

The argument is that if you take away the big 3, even with the increased production, the Yankees don't win the World Series.

 

The baseball fan in you knows this, the Yankee fan denies it vehemently.

 

I'm not saying i don't think the championship is legit, i'm saying it cost $450 million dollars.

I don't think anybody is denying that without them we wouldn't be champions, but two things I would like to add. Even if we just got one of the three (probably Sabathia), whos to say that the other guys we added instead of them wouldn't have had big years. It's not fair to predict because baseball is such a crapshoot, anything can happen.

 

As for $450 million, I hate when people throw that out there. The cost of those 3 guys on this years payroll was $47 Million ($14m for Sabathia, $20m for Tex, $13m for Burnett). If you guys are going to argue that it cost us $450 Million to buy this years championship, then you can't use that argument for any future Championships that the Yankees might win while those 3 are still on the team. I think that's fair.

[Dipre]

So since the sox only spent $209 million in one offseason' date=' that doesnt mean they bought their championship? I find it funny that sox fans throw the "bought a championship" line. The sox did that twice. Good for them. Good for NY for the win this yr. When a small market team wins a championship with all cheap, home grown or scrap heap talent, then I will truly say that they didnt "buy" their championship (see 2003 Marlins). Otherwise, the championships are bought.[/quote']

 

So you're comparing the contributions of Sabathia' date=' Burnett and Teixeira towards the Yankees championship with the contributions of Drew, Lugo and Dice-K towards the Red Sox championship? Really?[/b']

 

Thanks Bosox.

 

As for $450 million, I hate when people throw that out there. The cost of those 3 guys on this years payroll was $47 Million ($14m for Sabathia, $20m for Tex, $13m for Burnett). If you guys are going to argue that it cost us $450 Million to buy this years championship, then you can't use that argument for any future Championships that the Yankees might win while those 3 are still on the team. I think that's fair.

 

That is more than the payroll of a couple of MLB teams.

 

Happy?

[ORS]

As for $450 million' date=' I hate when people throw that out there. The cost of those 3 guys on this years payroll was $47 Million ($14m for Sabathia, $20m for Tex, $13m for Burnett). If you guys are going to argue that it cost us $450 Million to buy this years championship, then you can't use that argument for any future Championships that the Yankees might win while those 3 are still on the team. I think that's fair.[/quote']

Inaccurate.

 

CC got a $9M bonus with the $14M, Teixeira got a $5M bonus with the $20M, and Burnett gets $16.5M every year of his contract. So the initial expenditure was $64.5M, but that's not all. The LT is based on AAV of contract value, and every one of their salaries were over the cap. Therefore, you tack on 40% (repeat offender rate) of their combined AAV of $52M, which is $21.6M. In real $$ expenditures, those players cost the Yankees $86.1M this year alone.

[Dipre]

Inaccurate.

 

CC got a $9M bonus with the $14M, Teixeira got a $5M bonus with the $20M, and Burnett gets $16.5M every year of his contract. So the initial expenditure was $64.5M, but that's not all. The LT is based on AAV of contract value, and every one of their salaries were over the cap. Therefore, you tack on 40% (repeat offender rate) of their combined AAV of $52M, which is $21.6M. In real $$ expenditures, those players cost the Yankees $86.1M this year alone.

 

So they cost more than a mid-market team?

 

Wow.