Ellsbury's Fielding

[a700hitter]

From today's Boston Herald:

 

Ellsbury a liability?

 

Defensive statistics are getting better each and every season. Before long, John Dewan’s and Bill James’ plus/minus and runs-saved stat, as well as FanGraphs.com’s UZR rating system, are going to be tossed around like OBP and OPS numbers are now.

 

One surprise that emerged from the 2009 defensive stats, however, was just how poorly Red Sox center fielder Jacoby Ellsbury [stats] fared. His ratings placed him below average, which does not square with what regular observers of Ellsbury saw this year.

 

While terrific catches can sometimes be the result of outstanding speed making up for poor routes or bad reads off the bat, Ellsbury’s defensive numbers did not square with the Sox’ internal evaluations. He is an average fielder at worst right now, and internally, the club believes he should improve as a center fielder. One area that needs improvement is reading the flight of balls when he comes in or goes back. Side to side, he is better.

 

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/other_mlb/view/20091025sox_hot_stove_fired_up_early/

 

IMO, he goes back on balls better than he comes in on balls. He should be playing more shallow to compensate for his weakness coming in on balls. Vlad's winning hit in game 3 of the ALDS should have been caught. Ellsbury was playing way too deep and as usual his jump was very late.

[bsox0407]

he had his worst year by far any of the others. HE HAD 2 ERRORS this year. that is also his career total. he is a solid defender. he may not read the ball as well as the other CF but he is still pretty damn good and is still improving.

 

I also agree with you.

[msubulldogs21]

HE HAD 2 ERRORS this year.

 

You can't just measure defense by how many errors someone commits.

[bsox0407]

You can't just measure defense by how many errors someone commits.

 

i know but still that is a pretty good year. Ichiro had 4 errors. but Ellsbury is a good defender and can only get better.

[Dipre]

i know but still that is a pretty good year. Ichiro had 4 errors. but Ellsbury is a good defender and can only get better.

 

How many errors a player commits is the absolutely worst way to measure defensive efficiency.

[a700hitter]

What are your thoughts about having him play more shallow in CF? I think it would help.

[Dipre]

What are your thoughts about having him play more shallow in CF? I think it would help.

 

It should.

 

He's awful running down balls to his front, and he has the speed to reach the track from shallow CF, so why not give it a try?

[a700hitter]

It should.

 

He's awful running down balls to his front, and he has the speed to reach the track from shallow CF, so why not give it a try?

Paul Blair used to play very shallow. It was almost impossible to drop something in front of him. If you tried to beat him, he could track down almost anything over his head. Ellsbury gets back on balls very well, and let's face it, there isn't that far to go in left center. I'd have him come in about 3 or 4 steps.

[Dipre]

Paul Blair used to play very shallow. It was almost impossible to drop something in front of him. If you tried to beat him' date=' he could track down almost anything over his head. Ellsbury gets back on balls very well, and let's face it, there isn't that far to go in left center. I'd have him come in about 3 or 4 steps.[/quote']

 

So did Andruw Jones and Jim Edmonds in their fielding prime, and so does Torii Hunter.

[bsox0407]

You can't just measure defense by how many errors someone commits.

 

i know but still that is a pretty good year. Ichiro had 4 errors. but Ellsbury is a good defender and can only get better.

 

what was saying is that he is still an above average outfielder. he may lack the range that others do but he is still playing in a smaller ballpark that helps his range. his range coming toward home is below average. he should work throughout the offseason on this.

[BSN07]

BJ Upton plays about as shallow in CF as I have seen. But he gets great jumps and reads balls very well.

[Spudboy]

what was saying is that he is still an above average outfielder. he may lack the range that others do but he is still playing in a smaller ballpark that helps his range. his range coming toward home is below average. he should work throughout the offseason on this.

 

What?

 

No one is saying anything about Ellsbury's range.

 

You must be confusing range with a player's ability to read the ball coming off the bat and getting a good break on the ball. That IS a deficiency in his game. That, and of course, his Damonesque (sp) arm.

 

His tremendous speed, overall athleticism, and a willingness to fling himself perilously at balls enable him to make some spectacular plays.

 

Overall, as I've said several times on this board, he is a work in progress.

[bsox0407]

What?

 

No one is saying anything about Ellsbury's range.

 

You must be confusing range with a player's ability to read the ball coming off the bat and getting a good break on the ball. That IS a deficiency in his game. That, and of course, his Damonesque (sp) arm.

 

His tremendous speed, overall athleticism, and a willingness to fling himself perilously at balls enable him to make some spectacular plays.

 

Overall, as I've said several times on this board, he is a work in progress.

 

that is what i meant. the way i said range was to be said as the breaks not on his specific range. my bad for the confusion. i think his arm is not as bad as Damon. at least he doesn't throw like a faggot like damon does or a fairy boy like Swisher.

[SCM33]

How many errors a player commits is the absolutely worst way to measure defensive efficiency.

 

Except for infielders.

 

Jose Offerman and his 42 errors at SS in 1992.

Dick Stuart and his 29 errors at 1B in 1963.

Butch Hobson and his 43 errors at 3B in 1978.

 

How the hell do you make 29 errors at 1B!!!!!!!!!

 

Errors isnt always the worst way to measure it, when you suck......boy you suck!

 

(this post is done in comedic fashion)

[Dipre]

Except for infielders.

 

Jose Offerman and his 42 errors at SS in 1992.

Dick Stuart and his 29 errors at 1B in 1963.

Butch Hobson and his 43 errors at 3B in 1978.

 

How the hell do you make 29 errors at 1B!!!!!!!!!

 

Errors isnt always the worst way to measure it, when you suck......boy you suck!

 

(this post is done in comedic fashion)

 

Yet speaks the truth, at least in Offerman's case lol.

[TheKilo]

What?

 

No one is saying anything about Ellsbury's range.

 

You must be confusing range with a player's ability to read the ball coming off the bat and getting a good break on the ball. That IS a deficiency in his game. That, and of course, his Damonesque (sp) arm.

 

His tremendous speed, overall athleticism, and a willingness to fling himself perilously at balls enable him to make some spectacular plays.

 

Overall, as I've said several times on this board, he is a work in progress.

 

Great post.

[BSN07]

What?

 

No one is saying anything about Ellsbury's range.

 

You must be confusing range with a player's ability to read the ball coming off the bat and getting a good break on the ball. That IS a deficiency in his game. That, and of course, his Damonesque (sp) arm.

 

His tremendous speed, overall athleticism, and a willingness to fling himself perilously at balls enable him to make some spectacular plays.

 

Overall, as I've said several times on this board, he is a work in progress.

 

I've been an Ellsbury supporter from the word go. He is one of my favorite players, and I find him very exciting to watch. And think he should be the CF for a long time. But I agree with 100%, your post is spot on when it comes to his defense.:thumbsup:

[TheMino007]

To change things up a bit, would you consider trading Jacoby Ellsbury if the right deal came along for a young ace or power bat? Would you be willing to give up that range, the flashy plays, the 70 steals, and progressivly getting better bat and eye for a Felix Hernandez or Adrian Gonzalez? But then what would you do in CF? Could Drew be moved to CF? Sign Abreu to play RF and have Bay/Holliday in LF?

 

OT: Why doesn't Carl Crawford ever play CF?

[TedWilliams101]

To change things up a bit, would you consider trading Jacoby Ellsbury if the right deal came along for a young ace or power bat? Would you be willing to give up that range, the flashy plays, the 70 steals, and progressivly getting better bat and eye for a Felix Hernandez or Adrian Gonzalez? But then what would you do in CF? Could Drew be moved to CF? Sign Abreu to play RF and have Bay/Holliday in LF?

 

OT: Why doesn't Carl Crawford ever play CF?

 

If it was for a Felix Hernandez or Gonzalez, absolutely. Good defensive CFs are a lot easier to come by than a young, cheap MVP caliber slugger or power-pitching Ace.

[Dojji]

OT: Why doesn't Carl Crawford ever play CF?

 

If Carl Crawford were a factor in centerfield, they would have used him there when B. J. Upton got hurt a couple times.

 

the obvious answer here is "either because he sucks there or because Tampa thinks he sucks there."

 

On the other hand in the 54 games he's played in centerfield his UZR/150 is pretty good, so who knows.

[TheMino007]

well Bobby Abreu was re-signed so much for bringing him in if Ellsbury got traded or as a plan B if we don't re-sign Bay or sign Holliday

[Dipre]

If Carl Crawford were a factor in centerfield, they would have used him there when B. J. Upton got hurt a couple times.

 

the obvious answer here is "either because he sucks there or because Tampa thinks he sucks there."

 

On the other hand in the 54 games he's played in centerfield his UZR/150 is pretty good, so who knows.

 

SSS.

 

There's a reason he plays LF, and it's because, although he's very athletic, he's probably not very good in CF, if hewas, he would be playing there for Tampa.

[Wells]

I definitely agree on bringing Ells in a few steps.. he really does have trouble reading fly balls he has to come in on..

 

defense isn't my biggest concern for him though.. I don't think he's cut out to be a leadoff guy.

[Dipre]

I definitely agree on bringing Ells in a few steps.. he really does have trouble reading fly balls he has to come in on..

 

defense isn't my biggest concern for him though.. I don't think he's cut out to be a leadoff guy.

 

Explain.

[TheMino007]

He doesn't get on base enough? His batting average rose 20 points last year and his OBP rose something like 25 points up to .355 last year. I think he is only going to get better as he learns more. His OBP could be .370 at some point in his career, which I'll be happy with, along with his 70 steals and great range in the OF

[Dipre]

He doesn't get on base enough? His batting average rose 20 points last year and his OBP rose something like 25 points up to .355 last year. I think he is only going to get better as he learns more. His OBP could be .370 at some point in his career' date=' which I'll be happy with, along with his 70 steals and great range in the OF[/quote']

 

He's working into deeper counts and walking more.

 

If he performs next year like he performed in the 2nd half of last year, he'll be the perfect lead-off man.

[Wells]

I'd rather see JD Drew in that role.. granted he doesn't have the SB's obviously he gets on base a lot more.. I don't think SB's alone make a leadoff guy.. Ellsbury seems to hit spots where he just doesn't make it to first as often as a leafoff guy should and he never seems to want that free pass.. Drew has a lot more discipline at the plate and his OBP is nearly .050 higher which could translate to more runs in the long run..

 

Ellsbury should be batting 7th, 8th or 9th until he finally learns to take a pitch

 

this applies as long as Drew can stay healthy, of course..

[Dipre]

I'd rather see JD Drew in that role.. granted he doesn't have the SB's obviously he gets on base a lot more.. I don't think SB's alone make a leadoff guy.. Ellsbury seems to hit spots where he just doesn't make it to first as often as a leafoff guy should and he never seems to want that free pass.. Drew has a lot more discipline at the plate and his OBP is nearly .050 higher which could translate to more runs in the long run..

 

Ellsbury should be batting 7th, 8th or 9th until he finally learns to take a pitch

 

this applies as long as Drew can stay healthy, of course..

 

I firmly believe Ellsbury has broken through in terms of plate discipline.

 

But you do raise some valid points.

[Wells]

Ells did make strides in the 2nd half but 41 and then 49 BB's in 2008 and '09, respectively.. leadoff guys need to be walking to first base at least 85-90 times in 500+ ABs

[Dipre]

Ells did make strides in the 2nd half but 41 and then 49 BB's in 2008 and '09' date=' respectively.. leadoff guys need to be walking to first base at least 85-90 times in 500+ ABs[/quote']

 

I think he could raise the bar to around 80 BB next year if given the chance. Notice the word "could".