When will JD get his Due?

[Dipre]

Well, he's finally had a 20 HR season for us.

 

He's a good complete-package offensive player but I do think we were expecting more raw power.

 

That said, he's a very competent offensive RF and a find defender, so no complaints here.

 

"Raw power?"

 

Lol.

 

I, for one, was expecting a guy who played excellent defense and didn't make outs.

[TheKilo]

The guy slugs .500.

 

How much raw power do you need? Fenway is a killer hitting environment fr LHH when it comes to home runs.

[Dojji]

True -- which makes the likes of Ortiz and Vaughn even more impressive.

 

For the record, I'm more than satisfied with Drew myself. Was just playing devil's advocate there. put the pitchforks away, k?

[Paradisecity]

J.D. Drew fans are like fans of Ron Paul. There is merit to their argument, but they never shut up about it and any disagreement otherwise invokes a wrath no man should ask for followed by carrying a label of intellectual inferiority.

 

JD Drew fans = Mac users

 

 

I have defended the signing of him in the past but the second coming of Jesus Christ the man is not.

[TheKilo]

no one is saying he's the second coming of Jesu or anything of the kind, so put that strawman away.

 

The thing is, and Theo alluded to it in the interview, is that Drew is the easy target on this team when things are going poorly. He doesn't show emotion, he never lets anything rattle him, and that gives people the impression he is aloofor doesn't care. My only intention with this thread was to show what Theo thinks of the guy and just how good of a fit he has been during his time here.

 

there are people who still view his signing as one of the worst of Theo's tenure, which simply isn't the case at all

[Paradisecity]

I just don't think you can call a guy who gets paid 14M "undervalued" when they are a very good player.

 

You bring up players who make close (and that's relative, because 3M per year would be a 27% pay hike. As an example, 3M per year is the difference in signing Johnny Damon back) and then say that Drew's contract was at a different time, but all of those players signed within a year of Drew's contract, during a market that was still favorable for players.

 

I am not saying Drew is not a good addition to the team and I understand the role he plays. You are talking to a guy who repeatedly defended Mark Bellhorn to anyone who would listen when he was with us he because of his .817 OPS in 2004. Ask Mr. Crunchy.

 

What I am saying is that when a fan assumes that his team is operating on a budget, and 10% of that budget is spent on one player, those fans are going to expect a LOT from that player. And they should. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. "Its not my money" goes the argument. And it isn't my money, but given that this team operates under a budget, its not my money, but it IS our money.

 

I just think on this board, specifically, the JD Drew chest thumping is a little over the top. Could it be a testament to the intelligence on this board, recognizing that Joe Schmoe average fan shits on him too much? Yeah, probably. But at the same time the same people read this chest thumping over and over again, and for the most part, not many people disagree. It is like preaching "I told you so" to the choir.

 

It is my opinion that J.D. Drew may be underrated in the media and by the average fan, but he is overrated on the talksox board.

[TheKilo]

That's a fair statement to makem RE: overvaluing Drew on this board.

 

I suppose my follow up question to you then is do you feel thatDrew, who occupies 10% of the Red sox budget, has been worth that investment? you mention he might be overpaid - the question I have is what is the appropriate salary for a player of Drew's caliber? Could he have been signed by the Red Sox in the fall of 2006 for that amount (answer is probably no). what is the tangible amount of the overpay and is that value worth saing by having a replacement player in right?

 

These are questions that are never brought up when discussing Drew and really are a vital piece to the entire equation.

[VA Sox Fan]

I just don't think you can call a guy who gets paid 14M "undervalued" when they are a very good player.

 

You bring up players who make close (and that's relative, because 3M per year would be a 27% pay hike. As an example, 3M per year is the difference in signing Johnny Damon back) and then say that Drew's contract was at a different time, but all of those players signed within a year of Drew's contract, during a market that was still favorable for players.

 

I am not saying Drew is not a good addition to the team and I understand the role he plays. You are talking to a guy who repeatedly defended Mark Bellhorn to anyone who would listen when he was with us he because of his .817 OPS in 2004. Ask Mr. Crunchy.

 

What I am saying is that when a fan assumes that his team is operating on a budget, and 10% of that budget is spent on one player, those fans are going to expect a LOT from that player. And they should. Is it fair? Maybe, maybe not. "Its not my money" goes the argument. And it isn't my money, but given that this team operates under a budget, its not my money, but it IS our money.

 

I just think on this board, specifically, the JD Drew chest thumping is a little over the top. Could it be a testament to the intelligence on this board, recognizing that Joe Schmoe average fan shits on him too much? Yeah, probably. But at the same time the same people read this chest thumping over and over again, and for the most part, not many people disagree. It is like preaching "I told you so" to the choir.

 

It is my opinion that J.D. Drew may be underrated in the media and by the average fan, but he is overrated on the talksox board.

 

This ^

 

I like Drew. We all have favorite players for whatever reason. That doesn't make us right or wrong. Some of my favorite players get bashed out here on a regular basis. I no longer attempt to defend them because everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

 

Theo knows his players more than any of us. So does Fracona.

 

From The Red Sox Notebook in the Globe today:

 

Easing up on Drew

 

J.D. Drew sat out, replaced in right field by Joey Gathright. Drew went to Francona in the middle of Wednesday night’s game and let him know he had a sore shoulder. “I’d rather him have a chance to feel real good about himself,’’ Francona said. “It gives us a chance to play Gathright in right. It’s the one thing we really haven’t had a chance to do much of. It’s kind of a special skill he brings with the speed and everything, but he’s more comfortable in left and center. He’s got great speed - game-impacting speed. You’re always looking for that - and maybe here more than anywhere - that Dave Roberts guy.’’ Drew is likely to sit out tonight, too. Gathright was slightly injured, too, having skinned his right hand making an excellent catch in center field Wednesday night.

 

The bolded part above is why a lot of people bash Drew. A lot of players would never mention soreness due to wanting to play etc. I would rather Drew mention any concerns and get as much rest as possible, espeically during these "meaningless" games so he can be 100% for the playoffs. He has been clutch in the playoffs and we will need him in every game.

 

Kilo, your hetero love of Drew is well documented. I admire your admiration of him. But we get it. Boston is a tough town to get recognition in and it is really embarassing how moronic a lot of fans can be. But it's always been that way and it always will.

[Paradisecity]

That's a fair statement to makem RE: overvaluing Drew on this board.

 

I suppose my follow up question to you then is do you feel that Drew, who occupies 10% of the Red sox budget, has been worth that investment? you mention he might be overpaid - the question I have is what is the appropriate salary for a player of Drew's caliber? Could he have been signed by the Red Sox in the fall of 2006 for that amount (answer is probably no). what is the tangible amount of the overpay and is that value worth saing by having a replacement player in right?

 

These are questions that are never brought up when discussing Drew and really are a vital piece to the entire equation.

 

 

Kilo- that is a very good question. In my opinion, the Red Sox overvalued JD when they paid him 70 million. I think he is worth money similar to what the Dodgers paid for him- approximately 55 million. something over 50 and up to 60.

 

The big question is would someone else be playing right field if Drew had been offered that much? The Red Sox made two major signings- Drew and Lugo, where there was no mention made as to other suitors or bidders even close to their numbers. I think we need more information in order to say we would have a different right fielder for 2-3M less per season. Personally, I think signing Drew at 5 and 60 gets it done, and keeps 2M on the books per season, not to mention looking better in the public eye. 5 at 57.5 sounds MUCH better for PR than 70, though monetarily it barely helps.

 

Where could that 2M have helped in a contract negotiation? I have a player in mind. Kilo, you are no longer allowed to speak his name, but you'll remember I was in the same camp, beating the same drum, albeit with a smaller stick (story of my life).

 

The argument against this extra cash getting us Tex is The Red Sox had their maximum value for Tex spelled out and it went over, so they wouldn't have overpaid even if they had that extra 2M per

 

I tend to disagree, and think that money would have given us a switch hitting 1B who is a gold glove caliber and hits for power, making our lineup quite fearsome.

 

In my opinion, the Red Sox did exactly for Drew what I am advocating they should have done for Tex, that is, overpay for the sake of getting the better player at the time they need them. The difference is, I think they did it in the wrong situation, and until someone provides something more factual along the lines of competition to sign Drew, I believe they did it against no other bidders. Was it bundling in order to bring Dice-K in as Mr. Crunchy often suggests? Perhaps, perhaps not. But I think the Red Sox set a precedent for overpaying for a player that is an upgrade over the market when they didn't need to, leaving them in a situation where they couldn't overpay for a bigger upgrade when they did need to.

[RWTP24]

Remember when the entire Dodger Blues message board tried to invade basically because the sox signed Drew and they hated him so much? That was a blast.

 

Damn, I missed that? That must have been a lot of fun.

[TheKilo]

you know what? that is an excelent post, Pc, And it had points that I never really considered. Well done.

 

And VA, did you listen to the interview? Theo explains his thoughts on players "asking out of games". If it doesn't bother the GM, it shouldn't bother the fans.

 

I'm on my phone right now but I'll responsd to PC's post in greater detail later.

[VA Sox Fan]

you know what? that is an excelent post, Pc, And it had points that I never really considered. Well done.

 

And VA, did you listen to the interview? Theo explains his thoughts on players "asking out of games". If it doesn't bother the GM, it shouldn't bother the fans.

 

I'm on my phone right now but I'll responsd to PC's post in greater detail later.

 

Yes I did. I'm fine with players "asking out of games" but a lot of "The Nation" are not. Like I said, Boston is a tough town. A lot of our fan base can be embarassingly short sighted.

[Dipre]

Yes I did. I'm fine with players "asking out of games" but a lot of "The Nation" are not. Like I said' date=' Boston is a tough town. A lot of our fan base can be embarassingly short sighted.[/quote']

 

You mean most of the fan base?

 

Again, the most important aspect of offense is not making outs, and that's the thing JD does the best.

[TheKilo]

Well said VA. I think most of this board gets the value JD Bbrings to the table.

[VA Sox Fan]

You mean most of the fan base?

 

Again, the most important aspect of offense is not making outs, and that's the thing JD does the best.

 

Yeah and it's embarassing.

[Dojji]

Does anyone actually think that $2M stopped the Sox from signing Teixeira?

 

Do you really think that if we upped the ante, the Yankees wouldn't have gone right on ahead and followed suit until we were done? With Boras egging both teams on the whole way? Remember, they had zero at first base, they were gambling almost everything on getting Teixeira (I say almost everything because they did trade for Nick Swisher but it was clear they saw him as more of an OF)

[a700hitter]

Does anyone actually think that $2M stopped the Sox from signing Teixeira?

 

Do you really think that if we upped the ante, the Yankees wouldn't have gone right on ahead and followed suit until we were done? With Boras egging both teams on the whole way? Remember, they had zero at first base, they were gambling almost everything on getting Teixeira (I say almost everything because they did trade for Nick Swisher but it was clear they saw him as more of an OF)

The Sox owners were in the room. They asked what he was looking to get. He told them and they left. Deal closers don't leave the table until there is a deal. I'm sorry, but they messed up. They had access and the Yankees didn't. He threw out his number. The Sox should have said, if that's what you want let's agree now, or we are done with this negotiation. It would take a pair of brass balls to let them walk away after they had agreed to his terms in hopes that the Yankees would give him what he wanted. You can try to argue that he knew he could get what he wanted from the Yanks. If that were the case, why was he talking to the Red Sox at all. He was talking to the Sox, because he didn't even know if the Yanks had any interest in signing him.

[example1]

The Sox owners were in the room. They asked what he was looking to get. He told them and they left.

 

Do you think he told them 8/180 and they backed down? Maybe so, but that doesn't sound like the way the negotiations go to me.

 

I'm with both you and Dojji on this. I think Dojji is right that it wasn't an issue of $2m that sent John Henry away from the table (though that is a significant amount of money). I think it is just as likely that Boras reserved the right to call the Yankees with the Sox offer to make sure he couldn't get more and that pissed Henry off.

 

Deal closers don't leave the table until there is a deal.

 

Boras is a deal closer and he leaves the table all the time. The Red Sox have closed plenty of deals in the past. They just didn't close this one.

 

I'm sorry, but they messed up. They had access and the Yankees didn't. He threw out his number. The Sox should have said, if that's what you want let's agree now, or we are done with this negotiation.

 

Do you know that this isn't what happened? At some point they said "we are done with this negotiation", just like you said they should. I have no reason to believe that the number they threw out was what he ultimately signed for. I don't see why you would think that either. I have every reason to believe that he took less money (than they were asking for from everyone else) to play for the Yankees. He wanted to play there. You can tell from his perpeturally huge stupid horse smile that he's enjoying himself.

 

 

It would take a pair of brass balls to let them walk away after they had agreed to his terms in hopes that the Yankees would give him what he wanted. You can try to argue that he knew he could get what he wanted from the Yanks. If that were the case, why was he talking to the Red Sox at all. He was talking to the Sox, because he didn't even know if the Yanks had any interest in signing him.

 

And Boras wouldn't finalize a deal until he knew what the Yankees were willing to do. That's not how negotiations go either.

 

I think you're right, a700, in that this deal was a huge defeat for the Sox. It has put a pit in my stomach every time I think about it for the whole season, and every time I see him I despise him.

 

At the same time, I don't think any of us know how the negotiations went, other than that Henry left the meeting mad and Teixeira was ultimately very happy to sign with the Yankees. We also know that Boras had been talking about a 10 year deal for much of the negotiation and that the Red Sox often will not go beyond a certain number of years.

 

At this point it is water under the bridge. He was the guy they should have landed, but I don't think they should get into the habit of having Boras set a price and they just meet it. I also think the Yankees could always open the purse strings more. For all we know the Sox did offer 8/180 and Boras refused to sign the deal there with Henry.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Holy f***ing s*** here we go again.

 

 

THE YANKEES KNEW HOW MUCH TEX WOULD IMPROVE THE SOX LINEUP, AS WELL AS THEIRS. AS A RESULT, ESPECIALLY WITH ALL THE MONEY THEY HAD COMING OFF THE BOOKS, THEY WOULD HAVE TOPPED ANY OFFER THE SOX MADE UNTIL THE PRICE GOT LAUGHABLY RIDICULOUS AND TEX WOULD BE A HINDRANCE TO THE RED SOX NO MATTER WHAT HE PRODUCED ON THE FIELD. IF I SAY IT LOUDER WILL IT REGISTER WITH PEOPLE?

 

 

There is no 'defeat' here. Tex signed with a team that can comfortably fork out obscene contracts at their leisure. That's it, that's all, stop talking about it.

[example1]

You think the Yankees would have thrown out $300m/10 years if the Sox had? I don't. They have their price too, it is just marginally higher than any other team can usually do. If the Sox had decided to blow other teams out of the water they could have. It would have been STUPID to do so, but they could have. Your blanket (all caps) statement assumes a lot. The reason it doesn't "register with people" is because you are spouting as if you were in the negotiations and you weren't. Any time someone pretends they know everything about something that it isn't possible to know everything about, it isn't going to register. You and I mostly agree, but I'm just sayin'.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

You think the Yankees would have thrown out $300m/10 years if the Sox had? I don't. They have their price too' date=' it is just marginally higher than any other team can usually do. If the Sox had decided to blow other teams out of the water they could have. It would have been STUPID to do so, but they could have. Your blanket (all caps) statement assumes a lot.[/quote']

 

THEY WOULD HAVE TOPPED ANY OFFER THE SOX MADE UNTIL THE PRICE GOT LAUGHABLY RIDICULOUS AND TEX WOULD BE A HINDRANCE TO THE RED SOX NO MATTER WHAT HE PRODUCED ON THE FIELD.

 

The reason it doesn't "register with people" is because you are spouting as if you were in the negotiations and you weren't.

 

I don't need to be in the negotiations.

 

The Yankees have bottomless pockets, and an owner very eager to spend them on anything and everything his team needs, as well as anything he thinks his competition might benefit from acquiring. And they also knew how much of a difference Tex would have made to Boston's lineup. A big one. Bigger than he's made for the Yankees, probably.

 

Add that up, and I think you can make some pretty safe assumptions. This falls more under the common sense umbrella than anything.

 

Any time someone pretends they know everything about something that it isn't possible to know everything about, it isn't going to register. You and I mostly agree, but I'm just sayin'.

 

To think the Sox f***ed up the negotiations is just laughable. Tex wanted the money and signed with the team who can give him the most and outbid anyone else to the point of nausea.

[yankees228]

You think the Yankees would have thrown out $300m/10 years if the Sox had? I don't. They have their price too' date=' it is just marginally higher than any other team can usually do. If the Sox had decided to blow other teams out of the water they could have. It would have been STUPID to do so, but they could have. Your blanket (all caps) statement assumes a lot. The reason it doesn't "register with people" is because you are spouting as if you were in the negotiations and you weren't. Any time someone pretends they know everything about something that it isn't possible to know everything about, it isn't going to register. You and I mostly agree, but I'm just sayin'.[/quote']

 

Any thought that the Yankees' do not have budget constraints were proven wrong with Carlos Beltran. They have their limits.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Any thought that the Yankees' do not have budget constraints were proven wrong with Carlos Beltran. They have their limits.

Of course they do. But by the time the Yankees would have drawn the line on Teixeira, he would have been a burden to the Sox no matter what his on-field production was, since he'd be eating up a massive, disgusting portion of our payroll.

 

This is also a slightly different scenario, since Carlos Beltran going to the Mets (or Astros or wherever else he was rumored, don't remember Boston being in the running) only . Teixeira going to the Yankees' biggest competition would hurt them more, and they'd be more inclined to stretch their limits.

[redsoxrules]

JD finished the season with 914 OPS . 10th best in the AL among all hitters

 

24 HR - 68RBI's

 

would of had more RBI's if he was batting in the 3 or 4 slot . cant blame him for that

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

RBI doesn't matter.

[Dipre]

RBI doesn't matter.

 

This.

[BSN07]

Drew had what seemed to be his best season in a Red Sox uniform this year.

 

Also played in 137 GP. Which doesn't sound great, but he only missed 25 games. Which spread over the season(6 months), is like a game a week. Which doesn't seem like much. Especially knowing Drew is going to need days off.

[Dipre]

Drew had what seemed to be his best season in a Red Sox uniform this year.

 

Also played in 137 GP. Which doesn't sound great, but he only missed 25 games. Which spread over the season(6 months), is like a game a week. Which doesn't seem like much. Especially knowing Drew is going to need days off.

 

And Tito's "platoon".

[rhet]

RBI doesn't matter.

 

LOL

[rhet]

JD finished the season with 914 OPS . 10th best in the AL among all hitters

 

24 HR - 68RBI's

 

would of had more RBI's if he was batting in the 3 or 4 slot . cant blame him for that

 

He's hot at the right time.