The players say it too

[Paradisecity]

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_13303809

 

 

Alan Embree said it with a smile. But he wasn't joking.

 

"Getting out of the American League East," Embree admitted, "added two years to my career."

 

Trends are cyclical. So at some point, this will change. But there's no getting around a simple truth this season. The American League is better than the National League, again. Interleague play has proved it for several seasons. The most compelling evidence is among pitchers who have changed leagues this year.

 

While sample size must be taken into account, the statistics cannot be dismissed. According to ESPN research, eight of the biggest names to switch to the National League this season have done appreciably better. Rockies Rafael Betancourt and Jose Contreras, along with Cliff Lee, George Sherrill, Vicente Padilla, Clayton Richard, Brad Penny and John Smoltz posted a 4.70 ERA in the AL. That same group in the NL? Try a 2.61 mark.

 

"The American League is just tougher. You hate to say it, but it is," said Rockies reliever Matt Herges, who began the year in the AL with the Cleveland Guardians. "As (pitching coach Bob) Apodaca likes to say, 'That's a hairy-chested league.' "

 

Let's focus on Contreras for a second. His last start in the AL came against the Yankees. They pelted him for eight runs in 3 1/3 innings. New York's lineup features seven players with 20 home runs. The Diamondbacks' lineup Contreras faced Saturday had two players with 20 home runs.

 

It's not just the power, but the length of the lineups. There are guys hitting ninth in the AL who could fill cleanup spots in the NL. And forget about pitching around guys.

 

"When I was with the Yankees, we had Robinson Cano nearly win a batting title hitting at the bottom," said Jason Giambi, a recent Rockies pickup. "There are really no places for a pitcher to catch his breath."

 

As a result, one hit becomes two, and two becomes a line in a box score uglier than an overripe cantaloupe. Conversely, the NL allows spots for pitchers to work out of jams — namely the eighth and ninth slots — through the first six innings.

 

That inspires confidence. It can be seen in how Penny has pitched. Or Padilla. Or Contreras.

 

"It was important to make a good first impression," Contreras said. "Not just because I was going to a new team in a new league, but because of how poorly I pitched in Chicago. I wanted to show that I was better than that."

 

Heading to the NL was a good place to start.

[Keeper]

"As (pitching coach Bob) Apodaca likes to say' date=' 'That's a hairy-chested league.'[/quote']

 

Awesome quote.

[Dipre]

Goddamn it, i've been saying this all along:

 

The NL is a f***ing joke, and even the players from the NL know it's a joke and say so!!!!!!

[The_Destroyah]

Goddamn it, i've been saying this all along:

 

The NL is a f***ing joke, and even the players from the NL know it's a joke and say so!!!!!!

 

I dont believe you...when did you say this?

[Javier Lopez]

alan embree knows his s***.

[Dipre]

alan embree knows his s***.

 

The man is a f***ing genius.

[redsoxrules]

Goddamn it, i've been saying this all along:

 

The NL is a f***ing joke, and even the players from the NL know it's a joke and say so!!!!!!

 

Not true you never said that just like you never say champ

[Dipre]

Not true you never said that just like you never say champ

 

Well played.

[msubulldogs21]

Yeah this is just a common sense article.

 

I'm going to forward this to all the lame Cardinal fans I know.

[Dipre]

Yeah this is just a common sense article.

 

I'm going to forward this to all the lame Cardinal fans I know.

 

For some reason, this made me laugh real hard.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I think once Alan Embree started pitching okay, it was obvious to all that the NL is inferior.

[a700hitter]

They play under different rules that allows pitchers one easy out even in the best NL lineup. If I were a pitcher, I would never sign with an AL team. Essentially, two spots are rendered useless, because there is little reason to give the #8 hitter anything to hit. J.D. Batting 8th for an NL team would never get to swing the bat. I don't think that the talent gap between the leagues is that great. The NL may even have more young talent than the AL, but the AL game is very tough on pitchers.

[Paradisecity]

They play under different rules that allows pitchers one easy out even in the best NL lineup. If I were a pitcher' date=' I would never sign with an AL team. Essentially, two spots are rendered useless, because there is little reason to give the #8 hitter anything to hit. J.D. Batting 8th for an NL team would never get to swing the bat. I don't think that the talent gap between the leagues is that great. The NL may even have more young talent than the AL, but the AL game is very tough on pitchers.[/quote']

 

So if the game that is tough on pitchers on the AL sees them move to the NL after they can't make it in the AL, what does that say about the pitching in the NL?

[Dipre]

So if the game that is tough on pitchers on the AL sees them move to the NL after they can't make it in the AL' date=' [b']what does that say about the pitching in the NL?[/b]

 

Actually, what does that say about the offense?

[Paradisecity]

well Dipre, we got that far, but 700's argument seems to be that because of the DH, AL lineups are better because of their depth, not their talent. I disagree, but there is nothing in this article to dispute that. Either way we are saying AL lineups are better, so for now I can leave it at that. But on the other side of the ball, if pitchers are going to the NL because they can no longer throw in the AL, what does that say about the pitchers who are in the NL compared to those in the AL?

 

Good NL pitchers usually become AL pitchers

Bad AL pitchers usually become NL pitchers

 

The DH isnt the only thing that separates these leagues.

[Dipre]

well Dipre, we got that far, but 700's argument seems to be that because of the DH, AL lineup are better in their depth, not their talent. I disagree, but there is nothing in this article to dispute that. But on the other side of the ball, if pitchers are going to the NL because they can no longer throw in the NL, what does that say about the pitchers who are in the NL compared to those in the AL?

 

Good NL pitchers usually become AL pitchers

Bad AL pitchers usually become NL pitchers

 

THE DH isnt the only thing that separates these leagues.

 

Completely agree.

[BigPapiEnFuego]

They play under different rules that allows pitchers one easy out even in the best NL lineup. If I were a pitcher' date=' I would never sign with an AL team. Essentially, two spots are rendered useless, because there is little reason to give the #8 hitter anything to hit. [b'] J.D. Batting 8th for an NL team would never get to swing the bat.[/b] I don't think that the talent gap between the leagues is that great. The NL may even have more young talent than the AL, but the AL game is very tough on pitchers.

 

Wouldn't be that much of a change from the AL for him...

[Paradisecity]

Sorry- there is an "NL" in my reply that you quoted that should be "AL". Changed in original.

[Dipre]

Wouldn't be that much of a change from the AL for him...

 

You mean from the guy who's 3rd on this team in slugging and has 20 homers?

 

Yup, not much of a change.

[a700hitter]

So if the game that is tough on pitchers on the AL sees them move to the NL after they can't make it in the AL' date=' what does that say about the pitching in the NL?[/quote']

I don't think it says anything, because your premise is faulty. There is no evidence that only lousy AL pitchers go to the NL. Penny and Smoltz going to the NL does not establish a pattern or a practice. Penny still stinks. He was a pig in the NL before he signed with Boston which is why no NL team would give him the $5 million that the Sox gave him.

[Paradisecity]

From Buster Olney's 9/9 blog:

 

http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4457452&name=olney_buster

 

From Justin Havens of ESPN Stats & Information: "There's been a great deal of talk about how players from the American League that have been traded or signed with a National League team have subsequently dominated in the senior circuit. I took a look at the prominent players who have changed leagues from last deadline to this one -- including last offseason -- to see if this theory held up. As one can see, it most certainly DOES hold up, as pitchers and hitters, regardless of when they were acquired, have performed demonstrably better in the NL. Please note that some players were excluded due to extreme sample size issues, but that's not to say that sample size is not still present. Nevertheless, the aggregate totals give us a good idea of the big picture and suggest that the Senior Circuit has been an easier place to play of late. All stats are entering Monday's games."

 

AL to NL Pitchers

AL - ERA WHIP K/9 NL - ERA WHIP K/9

Cliff Lee 3.14 1.30 6.3 2.81 1.02 8.8

Rafael Betancourt 3.52 1.30 9.4 1.80 0.93 9.6

Jose Contreras 5.42 1.45 7.0 1.35 1.35 6.8

George Sherrill 2.40 1.14 8.5 0.52 1.21 6.2

Vicente Padilla 4.92 1.50 4.9 2.61 1.26 7.8

Clayton Richard 4.65 1.47 6.7 4.50 1.64 7.0

Brad Penny 5.61 1.53 6.1 0.00 0.75 2.3

John Smoltz 8.32 1.70 7.4 2.65 0.82 11.1

Total: 4.70 1.43 6.5 2.61 1.17 8.0

 

AL to NL Hitters

AL - BA OBP SLG NL - BA OBP SLG

Ryan Garko .285 .362 .464 .235 .297 .355

Mark DeRosa .270 .342 .457 .244 .313 .425

Julio Lugo .284 .352 .367 .306 .378 .520

Matt Holliday .286 .378 .454 .384 .439 .709

Total: .280 .359 .448 .297 .371 .516

[Dipre]

I don't think it says anything' date=' because your premise is faulty. There is no evidence that only lousy AL pitchers go to the NL. Penny and Smoltz going to the NL does not establish a pattern or a practice. Penny still stinks. He was a pig in the NL before he signed with Boston which is why no NL team would give him the $5 million that the Sox gave him.[/quote']

 

Oh rly?

 

We can make a very long list of pitchers who tank in the AL and go on to succeed in the NL, or were good/modest in the AL and then go completely dominate in the NL:

 

Martinez

Johnsonn

Blanton

Carpenter

Lowe

Vasquez

Lee

Pineiro

Lohse

Sabathia

Pettite

Clemens

 

Off the top of my head.

 

Couldn't find one NL pitcher who did the opposite off the top of my head.

[Paradisecity]

Nobody comes to the AL and pitches better. They come to the AL because they are better.

 

 

Sometimes they pan out, and sometimes they go back.

[a700hitter]

Nobody comes to the AL and pitches better. They come to the AL because they are better.

 

 

Sometimes they pan out, and sometimes they go back.

No one is going to come to the AL and pich better, because you face 9 real hitters. Their ERA's will most certainly go up and they will not be able to pitch deep into games. We got a 37 year old Schilling from the NL. His ERA went up in the AL, but he was still a top pitcher that first year and he was a CY Young candidate. Everything is relative. Yes their ERA's go up, but a good pitcher in the NL will be a good pitcher in the AL. Their numbers will be worse, but overall AL pitchers numbers are worse.

 

Also, the list of hitters who switched to the NL and did better was very small and unimpressive. It proved nothing.

[Dipre]

No one is going to come to the AL and pich better' date=' because you face 9 real hitters. Their ERA's will most certainly go up and they will not be able to pitch deep into games. We got a 37 year old Schilling from the NL. His ERA went up in the AL, but he was still a top pitcher that first year and he was a CY Young candidate. Everything is relative. Yes their ERA's go up, but a good pitcher in the NL will be a good pitcher in the AL. [b']Their numbers will be worse, but overall AL pitchers numbers are worse.[/b]

 

Also, the list of hitters who switched to the NL and did better was very small and unimpressive. It proved nothing.

 

Isn't that the whole point of the argument, Clint?

[Paradisecity]

Also, the list of hitters who switched to the NL and did better was very small and unimpressive. It proved nothing.

 

You already admitted to better AL lineups. The post was in reference to pitching. I pasted the entire blurb so that i wouldn't be cherrypicking.

 

Would you like to speak to the chart representing the pitchers who have switched leagues?

 

Would you like to explain how Alan Embree can have a job in the NL but not the AL?

[a700hitter]

Isn't that the whole point of the argument' date=' Clint?[/quote']

No. It is a given that the AL pitching #'s will be worse. The debate is whether it is due to a vastly different talent level or mainly due to the DH. There is a talent gap, but I don't think it is a large one like it was more than 5 years ago. Today, I think it is mainly due to the DH.

[a700hitter]

You already admitted to better AL lineups. The post was in reference to pitching. I pasted the entire blurb so that i wouldn't be cherrypicking.

 

Would you like to speak to the chart representing the pitchers who have switched leagues?

 

Would you like to explain how Alan Embree can have a job in the NL but not the AL?

I admitted that AL lineups are better due to the DH not some massive talent gap. The talent gap is not as big as it once was and it is shrinking. There's no reason to address the pitcher's chart, because pitchers stats will always get worse moving to the AL due to the fact that there are different rules. There is not a corresponding long list of hitters that go from the AL to the NL who have prospered from the move. If the pitchers are so much worse in the NL, there should be a corresponding list of hitters as long as the list of pitchers.

 

As for Embree, he had an AL job in 2007 and 2008 and he pitched better in those years than he is pitching now in the NL. His 2007 ERA was 2 runs lower than his 2009 NL ERA and his 2008 AL ERA is about a run lower than his NL ERA. Also, he had 17 saves in the AL in 2007 at age 37.

[Paradisecity]

since when do a middle reliever's ERA, or for that matter saves, matter when discussing the merits of that pitcher?

[VA Sox Fan]

Oh rly?

 

We can make a very long list of pitchers who tank in the AL and go on to succeed in the NL, or were good/modest in the AL and then go completely dominate in the NL:

 

Martinez

Johnsonn

Blanton

Carpenter

Lowe

Vasquez

Lee

Pineiro

Lohse

Sabathia

Pettite

Clemens

 

Off the top of my head.

 

Couldn't find one NL pitcher who did the opposite off the top of my head.

 

Schilling and Beckett pitched/pitch well in the AL, but they didn't suck in the NL either, at all.