Dice-K

[example1]

Sure, I think they will in fact do exactly that. True aces are all but impossible to come by. If you have the resources, spending them on keeping an ace is one of the best possible uses of those resources. Even cash strapped or confused teams do what it takes to hold onto them as long as they can. Seattle is a midcap team; they can afford to hold onto a few prime talents, and it would shock me more if they decided Felix WASN'T one of those.

 

Maybe if the old regime was still in place you could have acquired Felix Hernandez from them but I doubt the new GM fails to appreciate the unique talent that this guy is and I have confidence that Seattle WILL pay a high price to hold on to him.

 

Besides that, the Mariners have some bad money coming off the books in the next couple years, freeing up some cash to hold onto true assets. Unless there's some serious bad blood between King Felix and the Mariners, he will be a Mariner through 2012 at least IMHO.

 

And my view is that if a bigger-market team wants to blow Seattle out of the water with an offer of cheap talent then Seattle would be foolish not to take it and they know this.

 

An "ace" only matters on a team that is going to win. Yes, they're reliable for near-10 WARP, but if those 10 wins only get you from 72 wins to 82 wins then it won't increase revenue or fan interest enough to make him worth anywhere close to 20m a year. The Mariners have a lot of holes and they play in a tough division that has other good competitive teams. Furthermore, they won't have the luxary of drawing from a robust FA pool or of introducing a whole lot of young talent to boost their club. That's the position they're in.

 

If they were able to add cheap talent all over the field then they would be in the position where having that "ace" could get them over the top. They have traded away all of their high-end talent so Felix would net them the biggest return. It would be a bold move, but I expect that they will listen (they already have been, apparently).

 

(it should be noted that living in the broadcast area of Mariners baseball has colored my opinion. People here don't see Felix as the savior. They know he's very good, but his impact still only keeps them a middle of the road team. I understand your view Dojji, and I think you could be right about his future, but I also believe they are more interested in winning than in spending top-dollar for a pitcher who will keep them at the same level they're at now.)

[jacksonianmarch]

Seattle isnt moving Felix unless they get the entire red sox farm system. It isnt happening. Washburn, Beltre and Bedard come off the books this offseason. I expect the M's to throw big money at the King and keep him around for another 4-5 yrs or so. I also expect them to be players in the Lackey market.

[a700hitter]

And my view is that if a bigger-market team wants to blow Seattle out of the water with an offer of cheap talent then Seattle would be foolish not to take it and they know this.

 

An "ace" only matters on a team that is going to win. Yes, they're reliable for near-10 WARP, but if those 10 wins only get you from 72 wins to 82 wins then it won't increase revenue or fan interest enough to make him worth anywhere close to 20m a year. The Mariners have a lot of holes and they play in a tough division that has other good competitive teams. Furthermore, they won't have the luxary of drawing from a robust FA pool or of introducing a whole lot of young talent to boost their club. That's the position they're in.

 

If they were able to add cheap talent all over the field then they would be in the position where having that "ace" could get them over the top. They have traded away all of their high-end talent so Felix would net them the biggest return. It would be a bold move, but I expect that they will listen (they already have been, apparently).

 

(it should be noted that living in the broadcast area of Mariners baseball has colored my opinion. People here don't see Felix as the savior. They know he's very good, but his impact still only keeps them a middle of the road team. I understand your view Dojji, and I think you could be right about his future, but I also believe they are more interested in winning than in spending top-dollar for a pitcher who will keep them at the same level they're at now.)

I'll ship you two cases of El Presidente if Dice K is part of a package for Felix, and the Red Sox don't eat some or all of Dice K's contract. Give it a rest already. The notion that Seattle would take a broken down pitcher in a package for one of the young stud pitchers in the game is a pipe dream. Also, the notion that a significant motivation for Seattle to do this would be because Dice K is Japanese is offensively racist. It's no different than discussing a trade of David Ortiz in a package to get an Irish ballplayer in return, because of the ethnic makeup of Boston.

[Dipre]

I'll ship you two cases of El Presidente if Dice K is part of a package for Felix' date=' and the Red Sox don't eat some or all of Dice K's contract. Give it a rest already. The notion that Seattle would take a broken down pitcher in a package for one of the young stud pitchers in the game is a pipe dream. Also, the notion that a significant motivation for Seattle to do this would be because Dice K is Japanese is offensively racist. It's no different than discussing a trade of David Ortiz in a package to get an Irish ballplayer in return, because of the ethnic makeup of Boston.[/quote']

 

THANK YOU!

 

Fantastic post!

[Spudboy]

I'll ship you two cases of El Presidente if Dice K is part of a package for Felix' date=' and the Red Sox don't eat some or all of Dice K's contract. Give it a rest already. The notion that Seattle would take a broken down pitcher in a package for one of the young stud pitchers in the game is a pipe dream. [b']Also, the notion that a significant motivation for Seattle to do this would be because Dice K is Japanese is offensively racist.[/b] It's no different than discussing a trade of David Ortiz in a package to get an Irish ballplayer in return, because of the ethnic makeup of Boston.

 

I don't think a trade of Dice + for felix is going to happen.

 

Also, I don't think making a suggestion that a club in a large Asian market would be interested in acquiring another prominent Asian player is absurd and certainly not racist.

It would just be target marketing. Maybe it would not be the motivating factor behind the trade. Just a side benefit.

[example1]

Also, the notion that a significant motivation for Seattle to do this would be because Dice K is Japanese is offensively racist. It's no different than discussing a trade of David Ortiz in a package to get an Irish ballplayer in return, because of the ethnic makeup of Boston.

 

First, your argument is like saying that the predominance of commercials aimed at men during football games is an inherently "sexist" practice. You can use the word "racist" to describe prefering one group over another within a geographic and economic context, but the word loses its negative or fallacious meaning when you do that. But that's neither here nor there because I don't think you understand what "race" is anyway.

 

Irish and Japanese are not "races". Neither are Mexican or Venezualen, or American or Dominican. Perhaps it is "nationalist" to seek a Japanese (or Chinese or Canadian) star, but that word wouldn't be nearly as biting. A failed and weak attempt to end the discussion with a hot button word.

 

In Japan teams are only allowed to have a certain number of foreign ballplayers. We have (and ESPN Magazine, and SI) have discussed the Padres likely economic interest in keeping Adrian Gonzalez in San Diego because he is Mexican and therefore draws interest from a particular population. The Mariners are already overpaying for Ichiro because their team (again, owned by a Japanese ownership group) is popular in Japan.

 

 

The reason this discussion keeps going on isn't because I care about talking about Felix. The discussion is about whether Dice-K has value. I think it is absurd to claim that Seattle (or any other of the teams I listed) wouldn't do a deal involving Dice-K. You're telling me that if the Sox gave them Buchholz, Westmoreland, Anderson, Kalish, Kelly, Bowden, Bard, Exposito and Dice-K for Felix (or Adrian Gonzalez, or Hanley Ramirez) they wouldn't do it? Of course they would. His salary in and of itself isn't that bad. With tens of millions of dollars worth of talent coming with him, it is even better.

 

The total salary for that group with Dice-K's $$ would be $11m and it would be very cheap for 6 years after that. In terms of the wins it would get the team, it would probably be 3-4 times what Felix alone will produce for half the money (required for an extension). It also spreads the risk. It's a no brainer if the deal is sweet enough. The question for the Sox in any deal like that would be how much are they ACTUALLY willing to give up for the player.

 

I'm happy to drop anything related to Felix until the offseason (if not longer). Let's just stop pretending that Dice-K doesn't have value in potential trades. He may be hard to match 1:1, but he will probably be a mid-rotation starter with higher upside for a number of years.

[SoxSport]

The Red Sox aren't going to get another team's stopper without paying through the nose--if at all.

 

The Yankees realized that last year, and scarfed up the top two starters on the FA market for a couple of draft picks.

 

Theo should aim a little lower--and stay away from retreads, too.

[a700hitter]

First' date=' your argument is like saying that the predominance of commercials aimed at men during football games is an inherently "sexist" practice. [/quote']There is a difference between targeted marketing and giving someone a job based on race or ethnicity, and some would argue that certain aspects of targeted marketing are racist, sexist etc.

 

Irish and Japanese are not "races". Neither are Mexican or Venezualen' date=' or American or Dominican. Perhaps it is "nationalist" to seek a Japanese (or Chinese or Canadian) star, but that word wouldn't be nearly as biting. A failed and weak attempt to end the discussion with a hot button word.[/quote']When did I say that Irish was a race. For that matter, when did I mention Mexican, Venezuelan or Dominican in my post. It's so typical of you to call someone out for not understanding something that was never mentioned in the person's post. The example that I used was trading David Ortiz (who is black) for an Irish DH. I used Irish, because historically Boston has had a large Irish. You know that in my example I was referring to trading a black player to get a white player.

 

Obtaining a player to pander to the racist preferences of a team's fandom is racism. When Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier, Branch Rickey wasn't pandering to his Black fans, nor have I ever read that it was even partly motivated to appeal to black fans. Rickey did it to improve the product on the field and to move the sport in the right direction and let the rest of society catch up.

 

In Japan teams are only allowed to have a certain number of foreign ballplayers. We have (and ESPN Magazine' date=' and SI) have discussed the Padres likely economic interest in keeping Adrian Gonzalez in San Diego because he is Mexican and therefore draws interest from a particular population. The Mariners are already overpaying for Ichiro because their team (again, owned by a Japanese ownership group) is popular in Japan. [/quote']Japan is not now nor has it ever been a model for racial or ethnic tolerance. The Japanese practice that you mention limiting the number of foreign ballplayers would be illegal in the U.S. Because the Seattle team has Japanese owners and the team is popular in Japan does not justify that team favors obtaining Japanese players instead of players of other races and ethnicities. The Red Sox ownership is white, and it's fan base is predominantly white. Would the Red Sox be justified in considering the acquisition of a white player because of his race? I don't think so. Similarly, I find it offensive that you are casually discussing the possibility that Seattle ownership would like to get some Japanese player to appeal to the racist attitudes of their fans.

 

My offer of two cases of El Presidente stands.

[example1]

When did I say that Irish was a race. For that matter, when did I mention Mexican, Venezuelan or Dominican in my post. It's so typical of you to call someone out for not understanding something that was never mentioned in the person's post.

 

The example that I used was trading David Ortiz (who is black) for an Irish DH. I used Irish, because historically Boston has had a large Irish. You know that in my example I was referring to trading a black player to get a white player.

 

I wonder how racisim got introduced to this discussion? Well, you think of Ortiz as Black. I think of him as Dominican. Is Carlos Marmol black or hispanic? Julian Tavarez? Does it even f***ing matter? I think of people as African-American, or African, or Japanese or Chinese, and even those terms have limited usefulness. You bring race into it when you imply that Ortiz is somehow the same as Juan Pierre or Barack Obama or Desmond Tutu because their skin is darker than yours.

 

Obtaining a player to pander to the racist preferences of a team's fandom is racism.

 

When Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier, Branch Rickey wasn't pandering to his Black fans, nor have I ever read that it was even partly motivated to appeal to black fans. Rickey did it to improve the product on the field and to move the sport in the right direction and let the rest of society catch up.

 

If the issue were about Asian vs. Non-Asian your argument would make sense. If they were prefering Wang over Buchholz because Wang's "Asianness" appealed more to the Japanese than Buchholz's "whiteness" then you would have a point. That's not the point I'm making though. The point is that Japanese fans root for Japanese players. Dice-K is a Japanese player.

 

Japan is not now nor has it ever been a model for racial or ethnic tolerance. The Japanese practice that you mention limiting the number of foreign ballplayers would be illegal in the U.S. Because the Seattle team has Japanese owners and the team is popular in Japan does not justify that team favors obtaining Japanese players instead of players of other races and ethnicities.

 

Again, you say it is either "Japanese" or "other races and ethnicities". You should say "Japanese" or "other nationalities" if you want to be accurately understood. If a "white" child were a Japanese citizen he would be counted as a Japanese player in their league. It isn't about the color of skin, or how someone's hair looks. It is about their nationality.

 

The Red Sox ownership is white, and it's fan base is predominantly white. Would the Red Sox be justified in considering the acquisition of a white player because of his race? I don't think so.

 

Again, you're jumping from "Japanese" to "White vs. Asian". It is faulty logic. A thinking error with regard to this discussion. This is absurd.

 

Japanese population centers are absolutely entitled to root for Japanese players more than non-Japanese players. Just as Kenyans are entitled to celebrate a Kenyan soccer player for Arsenol more than a French player for Liverpool. It isn't racism it is geographical favortism and you do it too. Ever find yourself rooting for Americans in any event, ever? Little League World Series? Is it racist if I prefer to go to see the American soccer team at a World Cup event in my hometown rather than the German team or the Italian team? No, it is a preference because the players on that team will be from my own country. If the Japanese prefer to attend a game that Dice-K pitches over one pitched by Chen Ming Wang is it racist?

 

This is a stupid discussion. You entered racisim into it for no reason. If Japanese (or Irish or German or Italian) are not races, then your claim that Japanese fans prefering Japanese players (not South Korens or Chinese, if you believe in such a thing as "Asian") is racism is just wrong. Again, if I assumed casually that the Japanese owners would prefer Wang over Buchholz because Wang was Asian and Japananese people are considered inwardly as "Asian" then I would agree with you.

 

Dice-K is their native son. He is as Japanese as Brett Favre is American or David Beckham is British.

[a700hitter]

I wonder how racisim got introduced to this discussion? Well' date=' you think of Ortiz as Black. I think of him as Dominican. Is Carlos Marmol black or hispanic? Julian Tavarez? Does it even f***ing matter? I think of people as African-American, or African, or Japanese or Chinese, and even those terms have limited usefulness. You bring race into it when you imply that Ortiz is somehow the same as Juan Pierre or Barack Obama or Desmond Tutu because their skin is darker than yours.[/quote']What? I implied what? If the Sox had an African American on the team, I would have used him in my example instead of Ortiz. I realize that David Ortiz is Dominican, and I was not implying that he is the same as Juan Pierre or Barrack Obama or Desmond Tutu. However, in matters of race from a scientific standpoint , David Ortiz would not be considered Caucasian. The point of my example was to illustrate how obtaining a white player because he is white would be wrong. It is irrelevant to the example whether Ortiz is black, hispanic or Domincan. I think we can agree that he is not Caucasian.

 

Japanese population centers are absolutely entitled to root for Japanese players more than non-Japanese players. Just as Kenyans are entitled to celebrate a Kenyan soccer player for Arsenol more than a French player for Liverpool.

I never took the fans to task for rooting for a Japanese player. It is based in racism, but as you have pointed out it is not harmful or evil racism. However, to give a player employment using race as a motivation is immoral and often illegal.

 

Ever find yourself rooting for Americans in any event' date=' ever? Little League World Series? Is it racist if I prefer to go to see the American soccer team at a World Cup event in my hometown rather than the German team or the Italian team? No, it is a preference because the players on that team will be from my own country. [/quote']In those cases, the players are playing for a national team and representing your country in a competition between countries. The Seattle Mariners do not represent any country, nor are they competing against teams from other countries. Your comparison is invalid.

 

This is a stupid discussion. You entered racisim into it for no reason.

No, you entered it into the discussion by inappropriately suggesting that Mariner ownership would desire having Dice K on the team because he is Japanese. You can argue that your statement was not rooted in racism and that you were referring to nationality, but your statement is no less offensive. Discrimination in employment based on race, ethnicity or "national origin" is illegal. You can tap dance around this as often as you like, but in your fervor to land King Felix you were promoting an illegal employment practice. Some would call it a racist practice. I don't think you are a racist in the least, but even if your intent was benign, you were inadvertently promoting an illegal employment practice.

 

I really would hope that the management of a team that I root for would make personnel decisions based solely on performance with the intent of improving the team and not because a player is Japanese or Mexican or whatever.

[example1]

No, you entered it into the discussion by inappropriately suggesting that Mariner ownership would desire having Dice K on the team because he is Japanese.

 

I think you understand why they would do it along a wide range of reasons. One of them is that he's actually a good pitcher, another is that he's better than what they have, and he doesn't cost as much as a pitcher of his quality should cost. If you saw me saying anywhere that it was the only reason then go ahead and quote it. I think Dice-K as a pitcher has trade value--perhaps in combination with other players, but value nonetheless.

 

You can argue that your statement was not rooted in racism and that you were referring to nationality, but your statement is no less offensive

 

Actually it is a whole lot less offensive than saying they would hire him because they believe that as a Japanese man he is morally/intellectually/physically stronger than his competition. There are gradations of offensiveness. The racism charge is highly offensive. We've established that that isn't the topic of this discussion. I have thoroughly shown you that Japanese is not a race, it is a nationality. You can call that a tap dance if you wish, but it is fact and it completely takes the wind out of your sails that I am off on some naive racist rant. You first said the word racist, now you have retracted it back to "national origin".

 

Discrimination in employment based on race, ethnicity or "national origin" is illegal. You can tap dance around this as often as you like, but in your fervor to land King Felix you were promoting an illegal employment practice. Some would call it a racist practice. I don't think you are a racist in the least, but even if your intent was benign, you were inadvertently promoting an illegal employment practice.

 

No I wasn't. If the only reason they hired Dice-K over better qualified candidates was because he were Japanese then you might have a point. Currently they have candidates such as Miguel Bautista and Carlos Silva. Dice-K is probably better than both. He therefore could get the job with no mention of nationality at all. His nationality only adds to the reasons.

 

Discussion about next offseason rubs some cemented part of your personality the wrong way. I wouldn't shut up when you asked so instead you'll derail the topic with accusations of proliferating some injustice--some injustice blurred between racism and nationalism, with a hint of unfair hiring practices, entirely rooted in the very fabric of both the free market and major league baseball's hiring and Free Agent structure.

 

Companies are allowed to hire a particular salesman because they think he'll make them more money. They're allowed to trade for a pitcher for the same reason. The Rockets can hire Yao over Chris Bosh because they want to make inroads in the market in China. It happens all the time.

 

You may not like it, you may think it's illegal (in this context it absolutely is not), but I'm not suggesting that someone should do it, or even that I approve of it, merely that it is done. I'm happy to argue the rest of it with you, but none of my comments should offend you. You can find the practice offensive, but you are thus agreeing that what I'm saying is true.

 

What an absolutely weak and disappointing argument this is from you a700. A gigantic train wreck.

 

In reality, athletes are investments made by rich people. They are not drawn from a wide range of applicants within the general population, they are hired because they are both good and can help the organization.

 

Dice-K is a more attractive marketing option to Seattle than Kansas City because Seattle is involved with a corporation established in Japan and have Japanese owners and a lucritive Japanese fan base and the Royals don't. He therefore represents revenue to Seattle that he does not currently represent to Kansas City. This is not something that is even debatable or taboo. You can be offended, but be offended by the facts, not the person delivering them to you.

 

I understand discrimination and fair hiring practices just fine. In enterprises like this, or in showbusiness, it is often simply about who makes you the most money. Don't be so naive as to turn this into a discussion about unfair hiring practices. There is, in fact, nobody who can do exactly what Dice-K does. He is a pitcher and he is a unique cultural icon. He doesn't need to be at work 9-5 and he doesn't have a list of 30 tasks in his job description that lots of other people can do. He's unique and can be hired (or not hired) based on a unique set of talents and natural attributes. Sorry. Get over it.

 

I really would hope that the management of a team that I root for would make personnel decisions based solely on performance with the intent of improving the team and not because a player is Japanese or Mexican or whatever.

 

Do you want your team to try to make more money so it can reinvest that money in the team? Furthermore, when did I ever say they would take Dice-K in a deal that didn't benefit their team on the field? People here were saying Dice-K has NO TRADE VALUE. I take that to mean untradeable. I think he has a fair amount of trade value for numerous of reasons. He plays for a team with a lot of minor leaguers to add to any trade, he's affordable, he's not too old but he's also a veteran, he has had some success at the big league level, he is a "marquee" type player--someone that the casual fan has probably heard about--and he is very popular in a particular portion of the world.

 

For some teams each factor may have more value over another. Should a team that hires him because of his relative youth be considered an ageist and unethical organization for choosing him due to age over an older pitcher? How about someone who would hire him because he's a veteran? Is this really a slope you want to start going down? It is illegal to hire or not hire someone based on their age, right? Are people who are searching for a right handed starter discriminating against lefties? Shouldn't teams be forced to have left handed third basemen and catchers? Isn't that discrimination too? I bet it isn't okay to hire someone based only on what hand they write with yet there isn't anywhere near the same proportion of left handed throwing shortstops as there are left handed people in the world. Should someone call out the illegality of all teams who seek right handed throwing shortstops exclusively? Get over it man. Your argument has been super lame from the beginning. It spirals into a relativistic oblivion where you can find something politically incorrect (and illegal) about everything anyone does in this industry. That should be your first hint that you've got it wrong--specifically the motivation driving the decision. It isn't solely about nationality or race, it is about popularity and talent.

[Dojji]

And my view is that if a bigger-market team wants to blow Seattle out of the water with an offer of cheap talent then Seattle would be foolish not to take it and they know this.

 

An "ace" only matters on a team that is going to win. Yes, they're reliable for near-10 WARP, but if those 10 wins only get you from 72 wins to 82 wins then it won't increase revenue or fan interest enough to make him worth anywhere close to 20m a year. The Mariners have a lot of holes and they play in a tough division that has other good competitive teams. Furthermore, they won't have the luxary of drawing from a robust FA pool or of introducing a whole lot of young talent to boost their club. That's the position they're in.

 

The Mariners may have a few holes, but if you'll look closely and count on your fingers and toes, you might have noticed that they are winning more games than they lose right now. That makes them a "winning" franchise. And one not too danged far from making a move up the AL West ladder I might add, especially if they can build around King Felix in their starting rotation.

 

They haven't spent their money wisely in recent years but you can't pretend they don't have it to spend. The Mariners are a team with above average fiscal strength right now that's willing to spend what it takes to keep key players happy (see Ichiro) What on God's green earth makes you think that Felix wouldn't be one of the players they'd most want to keep happy?

 

If they were able to add cheap talent all over the field then they would be in the position where having that "ace" could get them over the top. They have traded away all of their high-end talent so Felix would net them the biggest return. It would be a bold move, but I expect that they will listen (they already have been, apparently).

 

they were polite enough not to hang up on Theo Epstein instantly. That's not the same as listening and you know it. Trading a player like Felix for less than a perfect return will doom that franchise. They're better off paying the money to keep Felix and then going to the free agent market looking for high-OBP, high SLG types to flesh out the middle of their lineup and finding a #2 starter.

 

(it should be noted that living in the broadcast area of Mariners baseball has colored my opinion. People here don't see Felix as the savior. They know he's very good, but his impact still only keeps them a middle of the road team. I understand your view Dojji, and I think you could be right about his future, but I also believe they are more interested in winning than in spending top-dollar for a pitcher who will keep them at the same level they're at now.)

 

Whatever fans said this are nearsighted. For one thing, the kid's in his mid 20's and still getting better, for another, this is a team that just spent $20M for Ichiro Suzuki, who certainly won't get any better and doing to be in major decline before the end of that deal.

 

The things holding this franchise back are a combination of the aftermath of the Bedard deal, and the Silva and Washburn contracts. If they could resolve these issues they'd be able to build around Felix and get into contention pretty quickly.

[a700hitter]

I think you understand why they would do it along a wide range of reasons. One of them is that he's actually a good pitcher' date=' another is that he's better than what they have, and he doesn't cost as much as a pitcher of his quality should cost. If you saw me saying anywhere that it was the [i']only reason[/i] then go ahead and quote it. I think Dice-K as a pitcher has trade value--perhaps in combination with other players, but value nonetheless.

 

 

 

Actually it is a whole lot less offensive than saying they would hire him because they believe that as a Japanese man he is morally/intellectually/physically stronger than his competition. There are gradations of offensiveness. The racism charge is highly offensive. We've established that that isn't the topic of this discussion. I have thoroughly shown you that Japanese is not a race, it is a nationality. You can call that a tap dance if you wish, but it is fact and it completely takes the wind out of your sails that I am off on some naive racist rant. You first said the word racist, now you have retracted it back to "national origin".

 

 

 

No I wasn't. If the only reason they hired Dice-K over better qualified candidates was because he were Japanese then you might have a point. Currently they have candidates such as Miguel Bautista and Carlos Silva. Dice-K is probably better than both. He therefore could get the job with no mention of nationality at all. His nationality only adds to the reasons.

 

Discussion about next offseason rubs some cemented part of your personality the wrong way. I wouldn't shut up when you asked so instead you'll derail the topic with accusations of proliferating some injustice--some injustice blurred between racism and nationalism, with a hint of unfair hiring practices, entirely rooted in the very fabric of both the free market and major league baseball's hiring and Free Agent structure.

 

Companies are allowed to hire a particular salesman because they think he'll make them more money. They're allowed to trade for a pitcher for the same reason. The Rockets can hire Yao over Chris Bosh because they want to make inroads in the market in China. It happens all the time.

 

You may not like it, you may think it's illegal (in this context it absolutely is not), but I'm not suggesting that someone should do it, or even that I approve of it, merely that it is done. I'm happy to argue the rest of it with you, but none of my comments should offend you. You can find the practice offensive, but you are thus agreeing that what I'm saying is true.

 

What an absolutely weak and disappointing argument this is from you a700. A gigantic train wreck.

 

In reality, athletes are investments made by rich people. They are not drawn from a wide range of applicants within the general population, they are hired because they are both good and can help the organization.

 

Dice-K is a more attractive marketing option to Seattle than Kansas City because Seattle is involved with a corporation established in Japan and have Japanese owners and a lucritive Japanese fan base and the Royals don't. He therefore represents revenue to Seattle that he does not currently represent to Kansas City. This is not something that is even debatable or taboo. You can be offended, but be offended by the facts, not the person delivering them to you.

 

I understand discrimination and fair hiring practices just fine. In enterprises like this, or in showbusiness, it is often simply about who makes you the most money. Don't be so naive as to turn this into a discussion about unfair hiring practices. There is, in fact, nobody who can do exactly what Dice-K does. He is a pitcher and he is a unique cultural icon. He doesn't need to be at work 9-5 and he doesn't have a list of 30 tasks in his job description that lots of other people can do. He's unique and can be hired (or not hired) based on a unique set of talents and natural attributes. Sorry. Get over it.

 

 

 

Do you want your team to try to make more money so it can reinvest that money in the team? Furthermore, when did I ever say they would take Dice-K in a deal that didn't benefit their team on the field? People here were saying Dice-K has NO TRADE VALUE. I take that to mean untradeable. I think he has a fair amount of trade value for numerous of reasons. He plays for a team with a lot of minor leaguers to add to any trade, he's affordable, he's not too old but he's also a veteran, he has had some success at the big league level, he is a "marquee" type player--someone that the casual fan has probably heard about--and he is very popular in a particular portion of the world.

 

For some teams each factor may have more value over another. Should a team that hires him because of his relative youth be considered an ageist and unethical organization for choosing him due to age over an older pitcher? How about someone who would hire him because he's a veteran? Is this really a slope you want to start going down? It is illegal to hire or not hire someone based on their age, right? Are people who are searching for a right handed starter discriminating against lefties? Shouldn't teams be forced to have left handed third basemen and catchers? Isn't that discrimination too? I bet it isn't okay to hire someone based only on what hand they write with yet there isn't anywhere near the same proportion of left handed throwing shortstops as there are left handed people in the world. Should someone call out the illegality of all teams who seek right handed throwing shortstops exclusively? Get over it man. Your argument has been super lame from the beginning. It spirals into a relativistic oblivion where you can find something politically incorrect (and illegal) about everything anyone does in this industry. That should be your first hint that you've got it wrong--specifically the motivation driving the decision. It isn't solely about nationality or race, it is about popularity and talent.

Boy, are your shorts twisted in a knot. I love to catch avowed self-righteous liberals being bigoted. They step all over themselves trying to justify their behavior. You have provided me with some great entertainment. Don't take it so hard. Everyone is bigoted in some shape or form. It's not limited to race or ethnicity. To me it is only offensive or illegal if it is institutionalized or if it denies someone access to society or opportunity. Giving someone a job because of race or national origin is illegal. You mentioned hiring a salesman that could make sales. In the insurance industry, they call it targeted marketing. It has never been held to be illegal. However, for example, if an Islamic customer requested not to do business with a woman or a Jew, it would be illegal for the business to engage in that practice. That's the law.

 

I have found your defensive rants to be very entertaining. I like the one about equating Ortiz with Desmond Tutu, Barrack Obama and Juan Pierre. That was pretty funny. How the hell do you equate Juan Pierre with the other two. What ridiculousness. Did he ever just get elevated. Why don't you throw in some Rosa Parks so we can all be assured that you don't have a racist or bigoted bone in your body.

 

The racism charge is highly offensive. We've established that that isn't the topic of this discussion. I have thoroughly shown you that Japanese is not a race' date=' it is a nationality. You can call that a tap dance if you wish, but it is fact and it completely takes the wind out of your sails that I am off on some naive racist rant. You first said the word racist, now you have retracted it back to "national origin". [/quote']You are so apoplectic that you are not making any sense at all. You haven't backed me off the racism issue. I was pointing out that your lame rationalization that you were referring to nationality is also offensive and illegal. Japanese is a nationality, but Dice K is a of a different race than Felix Hernandez. Do you really want to argue that? Weren't you talking about a trade involving Dice K for King Felix? Hence my reference to race.

 

You have to get over the fact that even liberal doo-gooders like yourself can be racially insensitive at times or bigoted. Stop trying to rationalize it. You f***ed up, but it doesn't mean that you are a bad person. Juan Pierre, Desmond Tutu and Barrack Obama? That was priceless.

[Dipre]

Lol how the f*** did you two manage to turn this into a political debate?

[a700hitter]

Lol how the f*** did you two manage to turn this into a political debate?

I knew it would get him twisted. Boy, was I ever right.:lol: Also, the constant drum beat for Felix Hernandez, when we are in waiver wire time of the year, was boring.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

EDIT: that's not really relevant, is it?

[example1]

Boy, are your shorts twisted in a knot. I love to catch avowed self-righteous liberals being bigoted. They step all over themselves trying to justify their behavior. You have provided me with some great entertainment. Don't take it so hard. Everyone is bigoted in some shape or form. It's not limited to race or ethnicity. To me it is only offensive or illegal if it is institutionalized or if it denies someone access to society or opportunity. Giving someone a job because of race or national origin is illegal. You mentioned hiring a salesman that could make sales. In the insurance industry, they call it targeted marketing. It has never been held to be illegal. However, for example, if an Islamic customer requested not to do business with a woman or a Jew, it would be illegal for the business to engage in that practice. That's the law.

 

I don't contest any of that. HOW DOES ME POINTING OUT THAT IT IS COMMON PRACTICE FOR NATIONS TO SUPPORT NATIONAL HEROES MAKE ME A BIGOT? The practice may be biggoted, the pointing out of it is not.

 

You are looking to pick a fight and I'm not looking for one. You love to smack yourself on the ass when you think you have someone's panties in a bunch, even if I've shown your view to be completely wrongheaded and completely based in an attempt to get "liberal pants in a bunch'. It seems to me like you're flaming for no reason and I wouldn't be upset if you were banned for a few days.

 

You're not supposed to be calling people names. Bigot is an offensive term and you're calling me it in a few places. That's the rules. As much a stickler for the rules as you are I would be SHOCKED, SHOCKED if you didn't ban yourself for a few days...

 

I bet you don't.

 

I have found your defensive rants to be very entertaining. I like the one about equating Ortiz with Desmond Tutu, Barrack Obama and Juan Pierre. That was pretty funny. How the hell do you equate Juan Pierre with the other two. What ridiculousness. Did he ever just get elevated. Why don't you throw in some Rosa Parks so we can all be assured that you don't have a racist or bigoted bone in your body.

 

You are so apoplectic that you are not making any sense at all. You haven't backed me off the racism issue. I was pointing out that your lame rationalization that you were referring to nationality is also offensive and illegal. Japanese is a nationality, but Dice K is a of a different race than Felix Hernandez. Do you really want to argue that? Weren't you talking about a trade involving Dice K for King Felix? Hence my reference to race.

 

You have to get over the fact that even liberal doo-gooders like yourself can be racially insensitive at times or bigoted. Stop trying to rationalize it. You f***ed up, but it doesn't mean that you are a bad person. Juan Pierre, Desmond Tutu and Barrack Obama? That was priceless.

 

You find it entertaining because that's a way of deflecting that you wanted to turn this into a discussion about racism because you think that Japanese is a race. You were wrong about that, so instead of looking contrite and admitting it you start another rant about unfair hiring practices.

 

You are absolutely 100% wrong about this, and you know you are grasping at straws. None of your counter arguments make sense or are grounded in reality.

 

Not only am I not biggoted, but my discussion wasn't racisit at all. Your enjoyment of this topic and your loose language and fractured arguments are enough for me to drop it because you do get me upset. I'll make sure to de-rail every future discussion you have with claims of sexism because you assume that every player the Sox pursue will be a man. ILLEGAL HIRING PRACTICES!

[example1]

I knew it would get him twisted. Boy' date=' was I ever right.:lol: Also, the constant drum beat for Felix Hernandez, when we are in waiver wire time of the year, was boring.[/quote']

 

I'm going to wear white after Labor Day too grandpa, I hope it doesn't strike your oh-so-politically-correct sensibilities the wrong way.

 

You are trying to encroach on my freedom of speech. You are pro-censorship.

 

If you dont' like the topic, stop reading.

 

READ THIS WEEK'S SPORTS ILLUSTRATED. THEY DISCUSS FELIX BEING MOVED (among others). I feel perfectly vindicated in my mentioning it.

[Dipre]

EDIT: that's not really relevant' date=' is it?[/quote']

 

Thank God you noticed, but still, how about the shitstorm that has ensued from the "Dice-k for Felix" discussion?

 

Lulz.

[CrespoBlows]

MARRRRRRRRRRRRRRK LEVINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

[example1]

Thank God you noticed, but still, how about the shitstorm that has ensued from the "Dice-k for Felix" discussion?

 

Lulz.

 

It would have helped keep things on track if you hadn't immediately agreed that the Mariners ownership group being interested in bringing Dice-K to Seattle for numerous reasons (including his popularity in Japan) was racist.

 

A700: "that is officially racist"

 

DIPRE: "THANK YOU. FANTASTIC POST"

 

Example1: "Japanese isn't a race, therefore, not racist"

 

A700: "it is officially illegial hiring practices, just as bad as racist"

 

Example1: "it is among a number of reasons they would hire him, not the main one"

 

A700: "You are a bigot and I like getting you upset because you're liberal"

 

Example1: "Pointing out that someone else does something that is racist is not the same as being racist. You were wrong about the racist thing to begin with and now you're shooting the messenger."

 

A700: "Stop being defensive. You're a bigot. It's okay, sometimes everyone is a bigot. Watch you back track, stupid liberal. Ha ha, he wouldn't shut up when I wanted to change the subject, so I'll start calling him horribly offensive names under the pretext of my feigned outrage that a Japanese ownership would be interested in promoting a native son in his native homeland"

 

I would LOVE to drop the discussion about the racism and being bigoted. It has no place in this otherwise rational discussion about varied interests that teams have when making personnel decisions.

 

 

.

[Dipre]

It would have helped keep things on track if you hadn't immediately agreed that the Mariners ownership group being interested in bringing Dice-K to Seattle for numerous reasons (including his popularity in Japan) was racist.

 

A700: "that is officially racist"

 

DIPRE: "THANK YOU. FANTASTIC POST"

 

Example1: "Japanese isn't a race, therefore, not racist"

 

A700: "it is officially illegial hiring practices, just as bad as racist"

 

Example1: "it is among a number of reasons they would hire him, not the main one"

 

A700: "You are a bigot and I like getting you upset because you're liberal"

 

Example1: "Pointing out that someone else does something that is racist is not the same as being racist. You were wrong about the racist thing to begin with and now you're shooting the messenger."

 

A700: "Stop being defensive. You're a bigot. It's okay, sometimes everyone is a bigot. Watch you back track, stupid liberal. Ha ha, he wouldn't shut up when I wanted to change the subject, so I'll start calling him horribly offensive names under the pretext of my feigned outrage that a Japanese ownership would be interested in promoting a native son in his native homeland"

 

I would LOVE to drop the discussion about the racism and being bigoted. It has no place in this otherwise rational discussion about varied interests that teams have when making personnel decisions.

 

Lol when i said his post was fantastic i meant the "Dice-K's not getting traded for Felix" part.

 

Just making that clear.

[example1]

Lol when i said his post was fantastic i meant the "Dice-K's not getting traded for Felix" part.

 

Just making that clear.

 

You may want to be more careful of your "fantasic post" usage if you don't want to be supporting a700's absurd theories. He called my claim a racist one and you agreed.

 

THE PARALLELL THAT A700 SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT UP WAS NOT ABOUT AN IRISH PLAYER OVER DAVID ORTIZ. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT BOSTON WOULD HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE INTERESTED IN A LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE BASEBALL STAR BECAUSE PEOPLE FROM MASS ARE ATTACHED TO HIM. It is as clear as that. It has nothing to do with race or hiring practices and everything to do with basic economics. A700 is flaming and he should be stopped. He's a menace!

 

Are the Twins racist or participating in illegal hiring practices because they want to keep Joe Mauer, a St. Paul native? Is that bigoted? Answer me that

[Dipre]

You may want to be more careful of your "fantasic post" usage if you don't want to be supporting a700's absurd theories.

THE PARALLELL THAT A700 SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT UP WAS NOT ABOUT AN IRISH PLAYER OVER DAVID ORTIZ. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT BOSTON WOULD HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE INTERESTED IN A LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE BASEBALL STAR BECAUSE PEOPLE FROM MASS ARE ATTACHED TO HIM. It is as clear as that.

 

Are the Twins racist or participating in illegal hiring practices because they want to keep Joe Mauer, a St. Paul native? Is that bigoted? Answer me that

 

Lol if my "Fantastic Post" was part of this issue, then i'll take your advice into consideration.

 

Because srsly.

[CrespoBlows]

Lol if my "Fantastic Post" was part of this issue, then i'll take your advice into consideration.

 

Because srsly.

 

I drove 1,000 miles to meet Jeff Gordon.

[Dipre]

I drove 1' date='000 miles to meet Jeff Gordon.[/quote']

 

lolwut?

[example1]

The Mariners may have a few holes' date=' but if you'll look closely and count on your fingers and toes, you might have noticed that they are winning more games than they lose right now. That makes them a "winning" franchise. And one not too danged far from making a move up the AL West ladder I might add, [b']especially if they can build around King Felix in their starting rotation[/b].

 

 

They're playing above their head. Russell Branyon has been a monster out of nowhere and they got some of the best pitching anyone could possibly hope for from Washburn. They are not as good as the Angels and they are not as good as the Rangers. One pitcher simply will not make the difference.

 

They haven't spent their money wisely in recent years but you can't pretend they don't have it to spend. The Mariners are a team with above average fiscal strength right now that's willing to spend what it takes to keep key players happy (see Ichiro) What on God's green earth makes you think that Felix wouldn't be one of the players they'd most want to keep happy?

 

I'm not pretending that they don't have the money. I'm saying that the type of absurdely lopsided deal I hypothisized about would be FAR BETTER, and FAR MORE VALUABLE than simply resigning Felix Hernandez.

 

As the Mariners you would turn down:

 

Felix Hernandez (and 2 years of arbitration) for Casey Kelly, Ryan Westmoreland, Lars Anderson, Danial Bard, Michael Bowden, Ryan Kalish and Dice-K? Seriously? That would be foolish.

 

they were polite enough not to hang up on Theo Epstein instantly. That's not the same as listening and you know it.

 

They considered the deal seriously, especially when Theo brought the Padres and Adrian Gonzalez into the discussion. I have no reason to believe that Theo would go barking up a nonproductive tree for as much time as he supposedly did--and then subsequently talk about having set up the groundwork for a deal that could potentially happen in the offseason--if there were no reason.

 

Trading a player like Felix for less than a perfect return will doom that franchise.

 

How is Adrian Gonzalez +, or Dice-K plus the 6 prospects listed a "less than perfect return?" They would trade one pitcher for the top 30% of the Red Sox farm system.

 

They're better off paying the money to keep Felix and then going to the free agent market looking for high-OBP, high SLG types to flesh out the middle of their lineup and finding a #2 starter.

 

How can you say this without knowing what they would get in return? Every player has a value. Pujols could be had for a deal involving Felix and Adrian Gonzalez and Hanley Ramirez and Papelbon. They're only "better off" if the return they get doesn't match Felix's production on the field against his financial cost.

 

And if Felix gets injured at any point in the next 8 years they're spending 20% of their salary on a s*****, injured pitcher. I think they'd prefer to take the 7 players above and have Boston take that risk.

 

Whatever fans said this are nearsighted. For one thing, the kid's in his mid 20's and still getting better, for another, this is a team that just spent $20M for Ichiro Suzuki, who certainly won't get any better and doing to be in major decline before the end of that deal.

 

Ichiro is their most notable and beloved player and he is a hall of famer who was essentially a free agent. There is a very good chance that Seattle could be tempted to NOT pay Felix CC Sabathia-type money.

 

After this discussion started I read the most recent SI article that lists Felx as a potential moving piece this year. It isn't naive speculation, it is a realistic possibility.

 

 

The things holding this franchise back are a combination of the aftermath of the Bedard deal, and the Silva and Washburn contracts. If they could resolve these issues they'd be able to build around Felix and get into contention pretty quickly.

 

They were not in better shape before having dealt for Bedard. They've been in rough shape for a number of years.

[a700hitter]

I don't contest any of that. HOW DOES ME POINTING OUT THAT IT IS COMMON PRACTICE FOR NATIONS TO SUPPORT NATIONAL HEROES MAKE ME A BIGOT? The practice may be biggoted' date=' the pointing out of it is not.[/quote']I never called you any name, nor did I accuse you of being a racist. In fact, here is my quote from an earlier post:

I don't think you are a racist in the least, but even if your intent was benign, you were inadvertently promoting an illegal employment practice.

 

So, why are you so defensive. I expected more from you. I would have thought that you would have realized that what you were promoting could be viewed as offensive, but rather you have gone to great lengths to rationalize your statements. Tsk Tsk

[a700hitter]

THE PARALLELL THAT A700 SHOULD HAVE BROUGHT UP WAS NOT ABOUT AN IRISH PLAYER OVER DAVID ORTIZ. IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT BOSTON WOULD HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE INTERESTED IN A LOCAL HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE BASEBALL STAR BECAUSE PEOPLE FROM MASS ARE ATTACHED TO HIM. It is as clear as that. It has nothing to do with race or hiring practices and everything to do with basic economics. A700 is flaming and he should be stopped. He's a menace!

 

Are the Twins racist or participating in illegal hiring practices because they want to keep Joe Mauer, a St. Paul native? Is that bigoted? Answer me that

Is Dice K a Seattle native? No, he is not. Is he considered to be a Seattle hometown kid, because he is Japanese? You are digging a bigger hole. Stop shoveling. Try another rationalization.

[a700hitter]

Lol when i said his post was fantastic i meant the "Dice-K's not getting traded for Felix" part.

 

Just making that clear.

You shouldn't be encouraging me.