The "Bring Matt Holliday to Boston" Bandwagon

[TheKilo]

And it was a totally different market.

 

How much does Juan Pierre make again?

 

Or Gary Matthews Jr. for that matter.

[BSN07]

And what's Magglio make?

[BoSox21]

ok we get it, there's a lot of bad contracts out there

[Dipre]

ok we get it' date=' there's a lot of bad contracts out there[/quote']

 

JD Drew's contract was not a bad contract, but a product of the market.

 

f*** the JD haters.

[TedWilliams101]

And what's Magglio make?

 

Magglio is a much better hitter... and averages over 155 games played per season, minus 2 years he was injured.

 

I don't mind Drew's contract, it's just that he is always injured. $14 million for 2/3 of a great season and 1.5 sub-par years isn't getting it done.

 

Why bring up Mags? .310, .369, .512, 6 season of 25+ HRs, 8 seasons of 99+ RBIs. JD who?

 

Gary Matthew Jr and Juan Pierre's contracts are head-scratchers (although I can understand Juan Pierre's a bit more, but Matthew's is just unbelievable). I'm way happy with JD over either of them.

[Dipre]

Magglio is a much better hitter... and averages over 155 games played per season' date=' [b']minus 2 years he was injured. [/b]

 

I don't mind Drew's contract, it's just that he is always injured. $14 million for 2/3 of a great season and 1.5 sub-par years isn't getting it done.

 

Why bring up Mags? .310, .369, .512, 6 season of 25+ HRs, 8 seasons of 99+ RBIs. JD who?

 

Case in point.

[TedWilliams101]

Case in point.

 

Really? 9 1/2 seasons of 145+ games played with 2 injury shortened seasons is a case in point? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the guy was durable and raked before and after his injury. He is have an off year, no doubt, but it's just that, a bad slump.

 

And in regard to his contract, he signed a 5 year deal in '05 for $75 million (at age 31). The deal INCLUDED protection for the team if he couldn't stay healthy. If he missed 25+ games on the DL related to his knee injury, the team could void his deal.

[Cocos Disciples]

Magglio is a much better hitter.

 

Ordonez career OPS+: 127

Drew career OPS+: 127

 

Mags was benched this year and is hitting .257/.329/.351. Since 2003 he's only had one great year. I'll take Drew.

[TedWilliams101]

Ordonez career OPS+: 127

Drew career OPS+: 127

 

Mags was benched this year and is hitting .257/.329/.351. Since 2003 he's only had one great year. I'll take Drew.

 

How many 25+ HR, 99+ RBI years has Drew had?

Ordonez:

2006: 24 HR 104 RBI, .298, .350, .477, .827

2007: 28 HR 139 RBI, .363, .434, .595, 1.029

2008: 21 HR 103 RBI, .317, .376, .494, .869

 

Yeah, only one great year.

 

So in this supposed "bad" stretch, he manged to put up MORE 20+ HR, 100+ RBI season than Drew has in his career (3 20+ HR, 1 100 RBI season). But he's only had 1 great season since 03...

[Cocos Disciples]

How many 25+ HR, 99+ RBI years has Drew had?

Ordonez:

2006: 24 HR 104 RBI, .298, .350, .477, .827

2007: 28 HR 139 RBI, .363, .434, .595, 1.029

2008: 21 HR 103 RBI, .317, .376, .494, .869

 

Yeah, only one great year.

 

So in this supposed "bad" stretch, he manged to put up MORE 20+ HR, 100+ RBI season than Drew has in his career (3 20+ HR, 1 100 RBI season). But he's only had 1 great season since 03...

 

I never said it was a bad stretch so don't quote me as saying that. We obviously have different definitions for great; I don't think a mid-800 OPS is great. As for the arbitrary cutoff of 25 HR and 99 RBI, RBI is not a good statistic to measure individual performance.

[TedWilliams101]

His job in the middle of the lineup was to drive in runs, not to just get on base. He did that. Sure, he didn't have spectacular seasons, but they were solid, at the least.

 

I think the real point is in the comparison to JD Drew. How many "great" seasons has Drew ever had? 2? Maybe? Mags has done WAY more in his career and during his contract than Drew. That's the point.

[Cocos Disciples]

His job in the middle of the lineup was to drive in runs' date=' not to just get on base. He did that. [/quote']

 

Still, RBI is dependent on teammates and spot in the order.

 

Sure, he didn't have spectacular seasons, but they were solid, at the least.

 

So they weren't great?

 

I think the real point is in the comparison to JD Drew. How many "great" seasons has Drew ever had? 2? Maybe? Mags has done WAY more in his career and during his contract than Drew. That's the point.

 

Again, they have the same OPS+, Drew has a higher OPS.

[rhet]

Mags is much better than Drew. He's just 40 now and in decline.

 

Drew sucks. Not worth even $2 million.

[BSN07]

Mags is much better than Drew. He's just 40 now and in decline.

 

Drew sucks. Not worth even $2 million.

 

weak

 

 

I can name a dozen guys that are around 40 that were better the Drew in their prime. We are talking today, in the now!

[rhet]

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

[BSN07]

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate' date=' contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.[/quote']

 

[rhet]

Mark Teahen once ate a Rubix cube and shat it out solved...

 

:thumbsup:

 

(I'm making a mental note of that one.)

[Dipre]

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate' date=' contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.[/quote']

 

You should really use awesome phrases like that when they fit the context.

 

It'll make you look smart.

[BoSox21]

The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate' date=' contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.[/quote']

 

I like it enough to sig it.

[rhet]

You should really use awesome phrases like that when they fit the context.

 

Aren't we discussing the myth of JD Drew?

[rhet]

I like it enough to sig it.

 

credit...

- John F. Kennedy

[BSN07]

Actually it was the Matt Holliday bandwagon topic that started this whole thread.

 

 

The Cardinals are close to acquiring Matt Holliday from the A's for Brett Wallace and two other players, according to ESPN.com's Tim Kurkjian. Outfielder Shane Peterson and righty Clayton Mortensen are also headed to Oakland if the deal goes through.

[BoSox21]

I'm Canadian...like I give a s***

[Dipre]

Aren't we discussing the myth of JD Drew?

 

There is no myth......only pure, unadulterated OBP awesome.

[TedWilliams101]

Again, they have the same OPS+, Drew has a higher OPS.

 

Putting up good OPS+ is great... but you still have to play the games. The point is that Mags actually PLAYED full seasons consistently, JD hasn't. Mags has played 145+ games 9 times out of 11 seasons, JD Drew has only done that twice (with 146 being the most games played in a season).

 

Mag's career: 1901 hits, 273 HR, 1127 RBI. (13 seasons)

JD's Career: 1200 hits, 204 HR, 675 RBI (12 seasons)

 

Mag's actually PLAYED, so he was able to have strong FULL seasons.

 

Also, you are actually WRONG about JD having a better career in Boston than Mag's has had since '05.

 

Mags since '05: 22.6 HR/y, 111.6 RBI/y. 0.315, 0.377, 0.491, 0.868

That is including his ridiculous slump this season.

 

JD in Bos: 20.55 HR/y, 81.2 RBI/y. 0.264, 0.381, 0.459, 0.841

 

For the HR and RBI averages, I based it on playing 162 games. If you just look at the actually games they played, it would favor Mags even more.

 

Looks like Magglio was more productive since 2005, not just in the fact he played FULL seasons, but he put up better overall numbers as well.

 

What else are you going to throw at me?

[SoxSport]

Of course Drew is overpaid. That's what you get for dealing with Boras. He sets the bar at the NY level, and you have to jump over it. But Drew has paid some dividends at times. He has had some timely hitting streaks and playoff hits. He just isn't durable enough to command his salary. That's just Borasinflation.

[TedWilliams101]

I'm not arguing that he is overpaid. Coco actually tried to argue that JD Drew is better than Mags, has had a better career, and has been better in Bos than Mag's has since the start of his contract (05).

[Cocos Disciples]

Putting up good OPS+ is great... but you still have to play the games. The point is that Mags actually PLAYED full seasons consistently, JD hasn't. Mags has played 145+ games 9 times out of 11 seasons, JD Drew has only done that twice (with 146 being the most games played in a season).

 

Mag's career: 1901 hits, 273 HR, 1127 RBI. (13 seasons)

JD's Career: 1200 hits, 204 HR, 675 RBI (12 seasons)

 

Mag's actually PLAYED, so he was able to have strong FULL seasons.

 

Fair enough. Ordonez is healthier for the most part.

 

Also, you are actually WRONG about JD having a better career in Boston than Mag's has had since '05.

 

Never actually said this, but the caps was a nice touch.

 

What else are you going to throw at me?

 

Not really sure why this is necessary. I'm not being a dick.

[Cocos Disciples]

I'm not arguing that he is overpaid. Coco actually tried to argue that JD Drew is better than Mags' date=' has had a better career, and has been better in Bos than Mag's has since the start of his contract (05).[/quote']

 

It was kind of funny that you were putting words in my mouth, but now it's a little frustrating.

 

You said Ordonez is by far the better player than Drew, which I disagree with. I think Drew has been at least on par with Ordonez when healthy. I fully acknowledge that Ordonez is healthier more.

 

The original statement that I disagreed with was "Magglio is a much better hitter." Considering his miserable season, I disagree with this. That's it.

[TedWilliams101]

Again, they have the same OPS+, Drew has a higher OPS.

 

Ordonez career OPS+: 127

Drew career OPS+: 127

 

Mags was benched this year and is hitting .257/.329/.351. Since 2003 he's only had one great year. I'll take Drew.

 

I was responding to those. You said you would take Drew, I showed that Mags has been better, across the boards, than Drew (career, and '05+ vs Drew in Boston). I also compared him to Drew in Boston because we are talking about Drew in Boston and his contract vs Mag's contract. Mags has performed better than Drew, while playing a ton more games per season, during their current contracts.

 

Sorry If you took me as being hostile.

 

Also, sure their OPS+ are the same, but I take the higher SLG (.512 vs .491), higher BA (.310 vs .281), and much more durable Mags.