All that is Halladay

[Dojji]

Probably for the best for all teams involved for Halladay to go to the NL.

[BSN07]

I think he is going to Philly.

[yankeessuck013]

Red Sox won't give up Clay Buchholz and Casey Kelly for Jays' Roy Halladay

 

Once the Blue Jays made it known that they were shopping ace Roy Halladay -- who has said he would waive his no-trade clause to play for a winner like the Yankees, the Red Sox or the Phillies -- Theo Epstein spoke with his staff and called Toronto to inquire about Halladay. Now chances are slipping that the Sox will be able to land the right-hander. There has been little contact between Epstein and Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi. The Blue Jays want talented prospects Clay Buchholz and Casey Kelly in exchange for Halladay, but Epstein isn't willing to give up that much. The Blue Jays are seeking a better offer from a National League club such as the Dodgers, the Cubs or the Phillies. -- Providence Journal

 

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/sp_bb_red_sox_web_24_07-24-09_GOF5H8J_v1.2410bde.html

[TedWilliams101]

If Halladay were willing to sign a new deal, why in the hell wouldn't the Sox make that trade? Do they really think that Buchholz + Kelly would make a bigger impact than Halladay? Really?

[Dipre]

If Halladay were willing to sign a new deal' date=' why in the hell wouldn't the Sox make that trade? Do they really think that Buchholz + Kelly would make a bigger impact than Halladay? Really?[/quote']

 

A) That is not a certainty.

 

B ) He's 32, so a decline might be just around the corner.

 

C) Bucholz and Kelly could develop to be this team's 1-2 starters in the not-so distant future.

[redsoxrules]

that's f***ing retarted , if that's true Theo needs to pull the trigger there

I'm sure he can sign Haladay to an extension if he were to make the deal

[Dipre]

that's f***ing retarted , if that's true Theo needs to pull the trigger there

I'm sure he can sign Haladay to an extension if he were to make the deal

 

And how exactly do we know it's true?

[redsoxrules]

its probly not even true, probly just someone starting a rumor

[Dipre]

its probly not even true' date=' probly just someone starting a rumor[/quote']

 

Damn straight.

[Gom]

Teams overvaluing their prospects again.

[TheKilo]

Teams overvaluing their prospects again.

 

It doesn't make sense to deal them for a half yr rental.

 

If you can extend him, deal him, but I'm not trading four more years of Buchholz and six of Kelly or 3 months of Halladay.

[BSN07]

Teams overvaluing their prospects again.

 

Teams being smart and keeping young cost controlled high potential players.

 

 

I'm glad Theo passed. Don't care to se Buchholz pitching in Toronto after Roy leaves town after 1.5 years.

 

Too early to tell with Kelly. But he has shown a lot to be excited about.

[Rdsxmbnt]

No way in hell I'd ever make that trade

[BoSox21]

I'm curious how legitimate that report is since other reports have stated Ricciardi isn't very high on Buchholz

[Dojji]

As an inveterate prospect afficianado, I'm not that high on Buchholz myself. Everything builds out from Old Number One, and that's his weak spot. A fastball doesn't have to be overwhelming but if it isn't, you'd better be able to place it. Buchholz has a moderately good fastball, and when he places it he's awesome, but thats not exactly all the time.

 

One thing sure, Buchholz is pretty much done with Pawtucket. Right now he gets away with overpowering AAAA hitters so he won't learn to maje the adjustments required if he stays down there. He's going to have to come the rest of the way in the bigs much like Lester did.

[PWNdroia]

I agree, not sure about Kelly, but I'd trade Buchholz and him for Halladay. Makes sense to me.

[The_Destroyah]

As an inveterate prospect afficianado, I'm not that high on Buchholz myself. Everything builds out from Old Number One, and that's his weak spot. A fastball doesn't have to be overwhelming but if it isn't, you'd better be able to place it. Buchholz has a moderately good fastball, and when he places it he's awesome, but thats not exactly all the time.

 

One thing sure, Buchholz is pretty much done with Pawtucket. Right now he gets away with overpowering AAAA hitters so he won't learn to maje the adjustments required if he stays down there. He's going to have to come the rest of the way in the bigs much like Lester did.

 

he will, i have a feeling he stays up here in the bigs for awhile and next year he is most definitely in the rotation.

[BSN07]

As an inveterate prospect afficianado, I'm not that high on Buchholz myself. Everything builds out from Old Number One, and that's his weak spot. A fastball doesn't have to be overwhelming but if it isn't, you'd better be able to place it. Buchholz has a moderately good fastball, and when he places it he's awesome, but thats not exactly all the time.

 

One thing sure, Buchholz is pretty much done with Pawtucket. Right now he gets away with overpowering AAAA hitters so he won't learn to maje the adjustments required if he stays down there. He's going to have to come the rest of the way in the bigs much like Lester did.

 

 

Are you high?

 

You'll suck the ball sacks of pitchers like Hunter Jones, Kris Johnson and Hunter Strickland, but your "not that high" on Buchholz?

 

[TedWilliams101]

With Halladay, even if we couldn't sign him to an extension, he would make us overwhelming favorites to win back to back championships. I'm not sure Buchholz and Kelly could make such a drastic impact. Maybe they will, I don't know. The prospect of having Halladay is just tantalizing.

[Dipre]

Are you high?

 

You'll suck the ball sacks of pitchers like Hunter Jones, Kris Johnson and Hunter Strickland, but your "not that high" on Buchholz?

 

 

This should be sigged by the entire site.

 

POTY.

[Rdsxmbnt]

You think every other post is POTY...

[SoxSport]

Buchholz' trade value may have declined off his last start. That's the chance you take starting him a week before the trade deadline. Risky business. One way or the other. He's good--you don't want to trade him. He's bad--his trade value diminishes.

 

A lot of people are talking about hitting as their main problem. Well, they don't hit on the road--slump or no slump. I think part of the problem is no solid #3 starter. The other part is they don't play smallball--so they lose a lot of low scoring games.

 

You have to have strong starting pitching to win on the road. And they aren't there yet.Not without Dice-K. That's why I think Halladay is the guy to get. He would have the most near-term impact. They have enough farm system talent to absorb a trade. Epstein has to get off the pot if they are to beat NY this year. After all, some of that talent may never pan out. No sense in playing mother hen protecting all of your chicks.

[Dipre]

You think every other post is POTY...

 

lolwut?

[yankeessuck013]

JP is asking for at least 4 top prospects from every team who has inquired about Doc. I think he wants even more than Buchholz & Kelly. My guess is JP would ask for Buchholz, Bard, Kelly, and Navarro?

[yankeessuck013]

Buchholz' trade value may have declined off his last start. That's the chance you take starting him a week before the trade deadline. Risky business. One way or the other. He's good--you don't want to trade him. He's bad--his trade value diminishes.

 

A lot of people are talking about hitting as their main problem. Well, they don't hit on the road--slump or no slump. I think part of the problem is no solid #3 starter. The other part is they don't play smallball--so they lose a lot of low scoring games.

 

You have to have strong starting pitching to win on the road. And they aren't there yet.Not without Dice-K. That's why I think Halladay is the guy to get. He would have the most near-term impact. They have enough farm system talent to absorb a trade. Epstein has to get off the pot if they are to beat NY this year. After all, some of that talent may never pan out. No sense in playing mother hen protecting all of your chicks.

 

I can see Buchholz being on the table for Adrian Gonzalez or Halladay, but no other targets are worth it.

[TheKilo]

Buchholz' trade value may have declined off his last start. That's the chance you take starting him a week before the trade deadline. Risky business. One way or the other. He's good--you don't want to trade him. He's bad--his trade value diminishes.

.

 

It didn't

[Dojji]

Are you high?

 

You'll suck the ball sacks of pitchers like Hunter Jones, Kris Johnson and Hunter Strickland, but your "not that high" on Buchholz?

 

 

Since when are people not allowed to discuss the positive attributes of middling prospects, or the downsides of top prospects?

 

See the problem here is that you guys continuously decide that when I am willing to defend a prospect, often for little more than the sake of a good argument, that I have some kind of man crush.

 

The homoerotic references just drive home that point and amount to a rhetorical oversell, a dishonest tactic designed to artificlally put the other guy on the defensive.

 

I don't think that it's a particular shock to anyone that Buchholz's big issue is fastball command. He has stuff for miles but if he's going to have one weakness, that's a heck of a bad place to have it. That was one of the reasons that unlike Lester, Buchholz couldn't bounce back easily when he struggled last year. "Pitching backwards" is fine with the bases empty, but not even Buchholz can live in the strikeout indefinitely with breaking stuff, and there will be days when the breaking pitch isn't there for him, and when that happens Buchholz is pretty much screwed, as he can't go to his heater to get out of a jam consistently, at least not yet. That's a problem.

 

That's one of the reasons I actually think that while Buchholz is the more objectively talented, Bowden may well have the better career. He's got a better balance of skills for succeeding in MLB, including far fewer questions about his primary offering.

 

Go ahead and quote that and say "lolwut" or some other one liner to reveal your ignurance and unwillingness to tackle my point headon, and by all means continue to impugn my sexuality, since that's pretty much the majority of what you guys do here.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Since when are people not allowed to discuss the positive attributes of middling prospects, or the downsides of top prospects?

 

See the problem here is that you guys continuously decide that when I am willing to defend a prospect, often for little more than the sake of a good argument, that I have some kind of man crush.

 

The homoerotic references just drive home that point and amount to a rhetorical oversell, a dishonest tactic designed to artificlally put the other guy on the defensive.

 

I don't think that it's a particular shock to anyone that Buchholz's big issue is fastball command. He has stuff for miles but if he's going to have one weakness, that's a heck of a bad place to have it. That was one of the reasons that unlike Lester, Buchholz couldn't bounce back easily when he struggled last year. "Pitching backwards" is fine with the bases empty, but not even Buchholz can live in the strikeout indefinitely with breaking stuff, and there will be days when the breaking pitch isn't there for him, and when that happens Buchholz is pretty much screwed, as he can't go to his heater to get out of a jam consistently, at least not yet. That's a problem.

 

That's one of the reasons I actually think that while Buchholz is the more objectively talented, Bowden may well have the better career. He's got a better balance of skills for succeeding in MLB, including far fewer questions about his primary offering.

 

Go ahead and quote that and say "lolwut" or some other one liner to reveal your ignurance and unwillingness to tackle my point headon, and by all means continue to impugn my sexuality, since that's pretty much the majority of what you guys do here.

 

The fastball command is way overblown. From the two starts I've seen since his callup it appears his velocity is up slightly and he has more movement on the pitch. He's going to need refine it in the majors and that may take some time but he's definitely on the right track.

 

And lets not pretend Lester was some poster child of commanding pitches. When he first came up his stuff looked very shaky and he threw a lot of pitches to get through very few innings. Of course he's worked through that now after a dramatic turn around in June of 2008. Buchholz should get at least that amount of time.

[Dojji]

It may or may not be overblown, but the concern is there and it's real. lester would mix a few good pitches in with the bad ones and while he'd struggle, he'd usually get himself out of the trouble he wound up in, at least long enough to get through 5 and qualfy for some wins. I am very much concerned that Buchholz isn't showing the same ability to get out of the jams every rookie puts himself in. I don't purely know if it's stuff or character, but it's not good either way.

 

Lester when he was developing would sometimes throw 25 pitches an inning but when the chips were down he often found a way to make his pitch when it mattered and get out of it with the damage minimized. He got blown up occasionally but not as consistently as Buchholz. It's a real concern, at least to me. I don't think it's a mental issue, but he just isn't making that critical pitch. Don't ask me why.

 

I'll admit I wasn't very happy with Lester in the early stages of his development. It came down to the same thing, I thought Lester had been pushed to the majors too soon because of "stuff" and needed to refine his fastball more in the minors and he needed to refine his command more. In my own defense I was pretty quick to recognize the signs when it looked like he'd made his adjustments though, and there was absolutely no question in my mind ever about Lester's mental or physical toughness.

 

Speaking of, Buchholz' head is clearly in play as well. he as much as admitted that he let his struggles early in the year last season get to him and affect his performance. I cringed reading that. NOT what you want to hear from someone you want to groom as a franchise big game ace. That's almost worse than the numbers themselves, really.

[TheKilo]

It may or may not be overblown' date=' but the concern is there and it's real. lester would mix a few good pitches in with the bad ones and while he'd struggle, he'd usually get himself out of the trouble he wound up in, at least long enough to get through 5 and qualfy for some wins. I am very much concerned that Buchholz isn't showing the same ability to get out of the jams every rookie puts himself in. I don't purely know if it's stuff or character, but it's not good either way.[/quote']

 

Did they say this about Chris Carpenter when he went 10-12 with an ERA over 6 in 2000?

 

How about when Roy Halladay went 4-7 with an ERA over 10 in 2000?

 

 

Lester when he was developing would sometimes throw 25 pitches an inning but when the chips were down he often found a way to make his pitch when it mattered and get out of it with the damage minimized. He got blown up occasionally but not as consistently as Buchholz. It's a real concern, at least to me. I don't think it's a mental issue, but he just isn't making that critical pitch. Don't ask me why.

 

So you acknowledge Lester did the same things, got lucky a bit more often, and can't offer an explanation for it.

 

Sound, logical argument indeed.

 

I'll admit I wasn't very happy with Lester in the early stages of his development. It came down to the same thing, I thought Lester had been pushed to the majors too soon because of "stuff" and needed to refine his fastball more in the minors and he needed to refine his command more.

 

Sounds familiar.

 

In my own defense I was pretty quick to recognize the signs when it looked like he'd made his adjustments though, and there was absolutely no question in my mind ever about Lester's mental or physical toughness.

 

Speaking of, Buchholz' head is clearly in play as well. he as much as admitted that he let his struggles early in the year last season get to him and affect his performance. I cringed reading that. NOT what you want to hear from someone you want to groom as a franchise big game ace. That's almost worse than the numbers themselves, really.

 

You would have preferred him to keep it to himself?