Trade/DL DiceK?

[a700hitter]

LOL

 

Oki- Good-Great

Dice-K- Ok-Good

Drew- Good

Lugo- Horrible

 

Of course a700 probably expected these guys to be perennial AS;) lol

I expected much more from Dice K. Didn't you? I didn't expect 5 full seasons from Drew, but I didn't expect him to be a .233 hitter in his healthiest season in years. Did you? I expected Lugo to suck. That deal was obviously a poor investment from the beginning.

[TheKilo]

The 3ERA was nice. The fact he can't pitch passed the 6th and his attitude towards the throwing program leave much to be desired.

 

So, we're going to completely dismiss the cultural differences argument?

 

Fact is, saving face is incredibly important to the Japanese. DiceK was considered a warrior, a demi-God when he pitched in Japan. Now he's on the DL with shoulder fatigue, stemming from ineffective outings from the start of the season. How do you think DiceK feels about is image in Japan right now?

 

I wish he didn't air the dirty laundry to the press but that doesn't mean I don't understand it.

 

Sorry, he's a guy who's won over 30 games the past two seasons and when healthy has been an effective pitcher in the toughest division in all of baseball.

 

In no way shape or form do I trade DiceK for prospects.

[BoSox21]

I would say it isnt even cultural differences. Many North American baseball purists have spoken out about how babied they think today's pitchers are

[Mr Crunchy]

BSN, hard to find the good Lebanese Hash thats plentiful in Canada yet rarely makes its way down here.

Time to make peace in the valley if for no other reason than to open up the Becca for us burners.

Nothing like getting a bar of the black that has Arabic lettering on it, last time I paid it was running upwards of 25.00 a gram here in Boston, in Jamaica and in other spots its infinetley cheaper.

Ya anyways

The photo above gives Epstein a pass on Drew, DiceK Lugo and the other assorted f***ups made.

Of course if we were still looking at 86-90 years of emptiness I would consider physical violence on our young GM..By most expert accounts DiceK was THE best available arm in the market when we signed him and I still to this day believe that JD Drew was signed as part of this deal.

What has happened since we signed these guys is 1 title, 1 pennant appearance that we got nipped in a game 7 on and a current pennant race that we look very capable of winning.

2.5years with these guys and 2.5 years the team has had what we all can agree on is successful baseball. the future is what concerns us and I do believe that the West Coast has a market for DiceK and if indeed he needs to be moved we will find willing partners in a trade.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I would say it isnt even cultural differences. Many North American baseball purists have spoken out about how babied they think today's pitchers are

Back in mah day u throo nahne-inning cumpleet gaemz once evree three dayz!! U kidz gut it g00d!

[BSN07]

I expected much more from Dice K. Didn't you? I didn't expect 5 full seasons from Drew' date=' but I didn't expect him to be a .233 hitter in his healthiest season in years. Did you? I expected Lugo to suck. That deal was obviously a poor investment from the beginning.[/quote']

I expected Drew to get on Base and play good D in RF. His BA is of no real concern because it's a faulty stat.

 

I expected Dice-K to be good. But I believe I did raise a small concern about how Asian pitchers normally do when coming to the States. They start off good and tend to go down progressively the longer they are in the league. I never said I "knew" this would happen. Just there was the possibility.

 

Lugo I was never really hopeful for, although I knew why they signed him. They needed a SS and a LO hitter. He was the best fit available at the time.

 

I didn't know a lot about Oki. So my expectations weren't high.

So, we're going to completely dismiss the cultural differences argument?

 

Fact is, saving face is incredibly important to the Japanese. DiceK was considered a warrior, a demi-God when he pitched in Japan. Now he's on the DL with shoulder fatigue, stemming from ineffective outings from the start of the season. How do you think DiceK feels about is image in Japan right now?

 

I wish he didn't air the dirty laundry to the press but that doesn't mean I don't understand it.

 

Sorry, he's a guy who's won over 30 games the past two seasons and when healthy has been an effective pitcher in the toughest division in all of baseball.

 

In no way shape or form do I trade DiceK for prospects.

 

That's a fair argument. His ego is probably bruised right now.

 

He has the "stuff" to be a quality pitcher. It's his head that gets in the way. His way of pitching doesn't work well for the long run. I don't see why he couldn't come back to form if he gets passed the shoulder issue and himself. I was suggesting a trade in case he isn't able to get past the mental hurdles, thus killing his value anymore. But it's not like I would stop watching if they don't trade him. It's only a suggestion. When he's on the mound I will root for him. If he does well I'll praise him for the effort. But when he's stinking the joint up and not following the teams guidelines, I won't feel bad about calling him out.

[Mr Crunchy]

Has any pitcher looked worse winning 18 games with a sub 3 era than Dice K did last year?

He still struggled to get 7innings in inspite of his gaudy #s and as Kilo pointed out he is from another culture and that culture is based on pride and honor...Which makes his statement to the press somewhat confusing...If he was effective he would be pitching, he isnt effective, he has sucked this year.

Courage honor and pride arent mutually exclusive to the orient either.

I saw Luis Tiant throw 165 pitches in a world series game and Id bet he was over 40 when he did it and then we have Schillings effort in 2004 which was as courageous as anything we've witnessed.

Jack Morris 10 inning shutout in game 7 vs Atlanta was spectacular as was Kevin McHale playing an entire playoff with a 1/2 inch stress fracture in his foot.

I saw Jack Youngblood play a superbowl after shattering his tibia and I saw Drew Bledsoe win a game with a finger that was nearly amputated and Ronnie Lott did in fact have his pinky amputated rather than miss a game....Duk Koo Kim was on the business end of a 62 punch combination thrown by Ray Mancini,was clinically dead on his feet yet was still throwing punches and Cornelius Boza-Edwards got hit so hard by Alexis Arguello that he s*** his pants in the ring yet got up and finished the fight.

Huge Balls come with the territory for most of these guys which makes todays article rather sad.

I would venture to say that the Redsox and their huge monetarial investment have this guys long term health as a primary concern and if this guy cant see this then someone should kick his ass till his eyes open...This is a 1st, a Japanese ball player blaming the team for his shortcomings and I suspect in Japan there are disappointed DiceK fans who will see this as excuse making and a copout.

Japanese men are refreshing compared to the prima donna's of our culture, its shocking to see one of their men behave ala Roger Clemens.

[a700hitter]

I expected Drew to get on Base and play good D in RF. His BA is of no real concern because it's a faulty stat

Drew is an underperforming ballplayer relative to his contract by any measure.

 

I expected Dice-K to be good. But I believe I did raise a small concern about how Asian pitchers normally do when coming to the States. They start off good and tend to go down progressively the longer they are in the league. I never said I "knew" this would happen. Just there was the possibility.

Most people expected him to be better than good. He was expected to be dominant. Theo called him a National Treasure at his press conference. You are employing 20/20 hindsight. When he arrived at Red Sox camp in 2007, it was with much fanfare. They don't do that for merely "good" pitchers.

Lugo I was never really hopeful for, although I knew why they signed him. They needed a SS and a LO hitter. He was the best fit available at the time

.

Understanding why they signed him does not absolve them of their mistake. The move was heavily criticized at the time, but somehow they expected a better outcome?

[Mr Crunchy]

DiceK costs us 20M a year,Lugo 9M and Drew 14M

I count 43,000,000.00 between the 3 guys per year or just about the entire payrolls of 6 teams.

What pisses me off is not only are these men dragging the team down competetively but due to their costs I cant afford to bring my kids to a f***ing ballgame anymore and that my friends is sinful.

[VA Sox Fan]

Same article with the Sox responses intertwined:

 

Red Sox respond to Matsuzaka's criticism of training program

 

Posted by David Lefort, Boston.com Staff July 28, 2009 01:09 PM

 

Less than a week after a meeting between the two sides, there's a war of words playing out publicly between the Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka over whether the team's training regimen is responsible for the pitcher's struggles this season.

 

In a recently published Japanese article, which appeared in the Japanese website Allatanys and first reported in the Boston media by WEEI.com, Matsuzaka blamed his struggles this season on the Red Sox' throwing program and training regimen. He indicated that he was not confident he will have the same success he enjoyed in Japan in the major leagues if the Red Sox do not allow him to train the way he used to. Matsuzaka's former regimen included extended throwing sessions, which he says the Red Sox no longer allow him to do.

 

"If I'm forced to continue to train in this environment, I may no longer be able to pitch like I did in Japan," Matsuzaka is quoted as saying in the article, according to WEEI.com's translation. "The only reason why I managed to win games during the first and second years [in the United States] was because I used the savings of the shoulder I built up in Japan. Since I came to the Major Leagues, I couldn't train in my own way, so now I've lost all those savings."

 

Red Sox pitching coach John Farrell, in an interview on Boston sports radio station WEEI this afternoon, defended the team's approach, saying the adjustment in Matsuzaka's regimen was in response to the fatigue that Matsuzaka experienced adjusting to the majors.

 

[b]"We have the utmost respect for the baseball norms and cultures that the Japanese baseball league has," Farrell said. "We not only respect them but we acknowledged them at the time of signing Daisuke. When he came over, no changes were recommended. No changes were mandated by any means. The adjustments in throwing have been in response to the challenges that Daisuke's faced here. ...

 

"We know that there was a pretty substantial amount of fatigue in the second half of '07 that we had to give him a breather at the time, largely in part because of the differences in travel, differences in competition, differences in strike zone, a number of the on-field challenges that he faced. So any of the adjustments that we've encountered have been in response to how he's adapted to the rigors of the schedule and the competition here."

 

Farrell further defended the Red Sox program, saying it was the best way to protect their investment in Matsuzaka.

 

"We've got a $103 million investment in a guy that we've got to not only protect, but put him in a best situation to have that success we just outlined," Farrell said.

 

Matsuzaka has made eight starts in 2009 with a 1-5 record and 8.23 ERA, a horrid stat line the Red Sox blamed at least in part on the effects of him pitching for the Japanese team in the World Baseball Classic before the season.

 

While making sure not to direct the full blame for Matsuzaka's woes at the WBC, Farrell today did say the team was concerned that the pitcher would be spending his spring not under the direction of the Red Sox but rather with Team Japan.

 

In perhaps his strongest statement, Farrell also questioned whether Matsuzaka put in the offseason work that was necessary to both prepare him for the rigors of a major league season.

 

"In hindsight, there might not have been the work that he needed to put in on his own time during the offseason to build the foundation that every pitcher requires to withstand the workloads that a major league starting pitcher is going to go through here in the States," Matsuzaka said.

 

According to one Japanese reporter covering Matsuzaka, the pitcher explained his dissatisfaction to the Red Sox during a 90-minute meeting with manager Terry Francona, general manager Theo Epstein, and Farrell at Fenway Park on July 24. [/b]

 

Specifically, Matsuzaka has recently been unhappy that the Red Sox are not allowing him to throw as often as he would like. When Matsuzaka first reported to Florida earlier this month to rehabilitate his shoulder after being put on the disabled list for the second time this season, he was throwing (not pitching off of a mound) for two days, then resting his arm on the third day, according to the reporter. Now, Matsuzaka is limited to throwing for one day (again, not from a mound) and resting the next day. So instead of throwing two of every three days, he is now throwing one of every two.

 

Matsuzaka has been additionally frustrated by the fact that the Red Sox do not have a timetable for his return to the rotation, according to the reporter. Farrell said this afternoon that the Sox hoping for a September return for Matsuzaka, and explained why the Red Sox did not outline any specifics.

 

"The thing that we have not done is put a target date as a marker in the near future to say this is the game that we're hoping you're back in Boston for, and being attached to the calendar," Farrell said on WEEI. "Sometimes it causes the pitcher or the player to neglect how his body's feeling and what his body is telling him. So in a sense, we're not letting Daisuke completely direct this, but he is certainly included in our planning and the progression of the throwing going forward."

 

After the 90-minute meeting at Fenway last week, Francona said Matsuzaka would continue to rehab in Fort Myers, Fla. and be examined by team doctors when the Red Sox are in Tampa Aug. 4-5. Francona gave no indication when Matsuzaka might begin throwing off a mound again.

 

"He looks great. It's obvious he's worked hard,'' Francona said at the time. "What we kind of arrived at is that rather than have a target date for a return -- I think that's what we've done in the past -- we're going to keep it to short goals.''

 

Francona indicated that Matsuzaka "looks a lot stronger'' and said the pitcher's shoulder strength had "vastly'' improved based on the team's testing methods.

 

In the Allatanys article, which was written by Taeko Yoshii, who has also penned at least two Matsuzaka-related books, Matsuzaka said he thinks the difference in training methods between the United States in Japan is the reason why Japanese pitchers tend to have a couple of good seasons before seeing a dropoff in performance.

 

"I know that there are Japanese starters who came to the United States before me only have two or three successful years," Matsuzka said, according to the Globe's translation. "I now believe that it is because of a difference in training and conditioning methods.

 

"If I don't act, people in the Major League Baseball will never change their attitude toward it. I need them to understand this. It is more than just about myself but future Japanese pitchers who come over to the United States."

 

The Globe's Daigo Fujiwara and Steve Silva contributed to this report. Background information from the Globe's Tony Massarotti was also used.

[Spudboy]

DiceK costs us 20M a year,Lugo 9M and Drew 14M

I count 43,000,000.00 between the 3 guys per year or just about the entire payrolls of 6 teams.

What pisses me off is not only are these men dragging the team down competetively but due to their costs I cant afford to bring my kids to a f***ing ballgame anymore and that my friends is sinful.

 

I agree.

[BoSox21]

What pisses me off is not only are these men dragging the team down competetively but due to their costs I cant afford to bring my kids to a f***ing ballgame anymore and that my friends is sinful.

 

If the team had a $60 million payroll and was still competitive, ticket prices would remain the same. As long as 38,000+ show up every night, ticket prices aren't going down.

[Mr Crunchy]

So is this Hideki""the fat toad""Irabu circa 2009?

Reading between the lines John Farrell is essentially calling him out.

This guy does have a lot of innings under his belt for a young guy and we own his ass till Obama's 2nd term. Lets hope that the brass and this guy can come to a happy medium and we can get his 5 2/3 ip of mind numbing, cautious and excruciatingly painful s*** back on the field

[YAZMAN]

:lol::lol:

 

Of course man you know it. Switched to hash recently though;) Can't beat the quality!

 

Two words: hot knives

[Mr Crunchy]

If the team had a $60 million payroll and was still competitive' date=' ticket prices would remain the same. As long as 38,000+ show up every night, ticket prices aren't going down.[/quote']

 

Valid point but what happens 20 years from now when guys my age arent interested in leaving the living room and my kids, who were priced out of the game during the salad years of redsox baseball have other things to spend their money on?

Relying on corporate schills to fill the park didnt work this year in the Bronx and although Fenways smaller and easier to fill, will the owners decide that its better to serve EMC and the pink hat wearing f***bags who's only motive to go to the game is the chance to be seen on tv by their loved ones rather than the die hards like myself and many here who have lived thru pain and suffering and severe psychological damage watching these guys over the years?....I fear the soul of the game being ripped apart, have you heard Yankee stadium this year?It sounds like a meeting of insurance salesmen rather than a ball park full of fans....The tickets are only worth what someone will pay, if they lose me they lose my family and thats their future.Bob Kraft is going to find this out eventually, he'll be teabagging me in the owners suite before I ever give him another dime of my money and I had season tix for what seemed like 100 f***ing years.The year after they won I gave em up due to incredible gouging and unjustifiable expenses. He and Jon Jon can go f*** their blind aunt Elsa before they see me in Foxboro ever again and there are 10000s like me.

It wont hurt them this year or in 5 years but 20 years from now they will have a fan base of kids who never saw the game live and refuse to pay the price to do so.

[Teddyballgame10]

I agree Crunchy its pathetic how expensive it is to take your family to being the game. This will kill teams in the future becuase of HD TV. Who needs to go to a game now when you can sit in your house, see a picture as good as being at the game, slam beers that dont cost 7 bucks and chill with your buddies or family. The price will go down when the demand goes down, that is not to far away.

 

Random question. . .how many more years are we on the books for Lugo?

[TedWilliams101]

Random question. . .how many more years are we on the books for Lugo?

 

Thankfully, just next year.

 

Any reason why Green gets the start over Lowrie tonight?

[BoSox21]

keeping the platoon going I guess

[Mr Crunchy]

Could it be that Jeds hitting .073?

Thats my point Teddy, the fan base will evaporate faster than you can say ""Au Bon Pain section 18"".

Its not like Im starving, I do pretty good financially but I cant justify blowing a mortgage payment to see the Royals on a Tuesday in April when I have a 62inch tv at home that can show how far Torre gets his knuckles into his nostrils.

 

Ok kids Im off for the night,

keep the faith, Yankees suck, Buy Union, practice safe sex etc...

[SCM33]

Thankfully, just next year.

 

Any reason why Green gets the start over Lowrie tonight?

 

I doubt it has anything to deal with any impending deal. If something were that close to getting done, I doubt Buchholz would be making the start tonight, assuming he will be part of ANY deal that gets done.

[VA Sox Fan]

Francona 'disappointed' by Matsuzaka's 'unfortunate' comments

 

Posted by Ben Collins, Globe Correspondent July 28, 2009 04:50 PM

 

Red Sox manager Terry Francona said he was “disappointed” in Daisuke Matsuzaka, hours after a report was released by Japanese media stating the pitcher’s dissatisfaction with the team’s shoulder conditioning program.

 

“We had made huge strides (in communicating) during our meetings,” said Francona. “So to hear him say that – to have him air it out publicly – I’m disappointed.”

 

Francona said that he had talked to Matsuzaka within the last two days and thought he and the pitcher had left the meeting with an agreement to follow the team’s regimen. Matsuzaka’s statements, made after the meeting, imply that he wants to be able to work his shoulder back into shape on his own training schedule.

 

“For $102 million, if (Red Sox owner) Mr. (John) Henry came down and asked, ‘What’s going on?’ and we said, ‘We’re letting (Daisuke) do it his own way,” he probably wouldn’t like that very much,” said Francona.

 

“I know there’s frustration, but it’s unfortunate for (Matsuzaka) to say that,” Francona said. “I thought everybody was on board with what we were doing.”

 

Francona said that the disappointment stems mostly from the fact that communications between Matsuzaka and the organization had seemingly strengthened recently. In the past, the Red Sox manager has said that the lines of communication are often muddled because meetings with the pitcher last twice as long due to the amount of time it takes to translate Matsuzaka’s thoughts about his sore shoulder.

 

“I thought we’d opened the lines of communication better. I even had him put in writing some of the things he had to say to make things clearer,” said Francona. “We’ve had a lot of meetings. There have been some cultural differences. There were a lot of things that could cause him anxiety. I didn’t want to be one of those things.”

The last face-to-face meeting was the day he left for the Sox’s training facility in Florida on July 6.

 

“We want to take care of (our pitchers) not only in the present, but in the future,” said Francona.

[BSN07]

Drew is an underperforming ballplayer relative to his contract by any measure.

 

Most people expected him to be better than good. He was expected to be dominant. Theo called him a National Treasure at his press conference. You are employing 20/20 hindsight. When he arrived at Red Sox camp in 2007, it was with much fanfare. They don't do that for merely "good" pitchers.

Understanding why they signed him does not absolve them of their mistake. The move was heavily criticized at the time, but somehow they expected a better outcome?

Yes his contract looks bad now. when he signed it, it was the going rate.

DiceK costs us 20M a year,Lugo 9M and Drew 14M

I count 43,000,000.00 between the 3 guys per year or just about the entire payrolls of 6 teams.

What pisses me off is not only are these men dragging the team down competetively but due to their costs I cant afford to bring my kids to a f***ing ballgame anymore and that my friends is sinful.

Dice-K makes 8M a season, not 20M. You can't add in the posting fee. That has nothing to do with his salary. It doesn't effect the teams payroll. And BTW 25 Euros for 5 grams;)

Francona 'disappointed' by Matsuzaka's 'unfortunate' comments

 

Posted by Ben Collins, Globe Correspondent July 28, 2009 04:50 PM

 

Red Sox manager Terry Francona said he was “disappointed” in Daisuke Matsuzaka, hours after a report was released by Japanese media stating the pitcher’s dissatisfaction with the team’s shoulder conditioning program.

 

“We had made huge strides (in communicating) during our meetings,” said Francona. “So to hear him say that – to have him air it out publicly – I’m disappointed.”

 

Francona said that he had talked to Matsuzaka within the last two days and thought he and the pitcher had left the meeting with an agreement to follow the team’s regimen. Matsuzaka’s statements, made after the meeting, imply that he wants to be able to work his shoulder back into shape on his own training schedule.

 

“For $102 million, if (Red Sox owner) Mr. (John) Henry came down and asked, ‘What’s going on?’ and we said, ‘We’re letting (Daisuke) do it his own way,” he probably wouldn’t like that very much,” said Francona.

 

“I know there’s frustration, but it’s unfortunate for (Matsuzaka) to say that,” Francona said. “I thought everybody was on board with what we were doing.”

 

Francona said that the disappointment stems mostly from the fact that communications between Matsuzaka and the organization had seemingly strengthened recently. In the past, the Red Sox manager has said that the lines of communication are often muddled because meetings with the pitcher last twice as long due to the amount of time it takes to translate Matsuzaka’s thoughts about his sore shoulder.

 

“I thought we’d opened the lines of communication better. I even had him put in writing some of the things he had to say to make things clearer,” said Francona. “We’ve had a lot of meetings. There have been some cultural differences. There were a lot of things that could cause him anxiety. I didn’t want to be one of those things.”

The last face-to-face meeting was the day he left for the Sox’s training facility in Florida on July 6.

 

“We want to take care of (our pitchers) not only in the present, but in the future,” said Francona.

 

The more and more I read stories like this. The more and more I see him on his way out.

[TheKilo]

DiceK is not being traded.

[BSN07]

DiceK is not being traded.

 

What are the lotto numbers for tonight?

[TheKilo]

What are the lotto numbers for tonight?

 

What rational argument is there for trading DiceK?

[BSN07]

What rational argument is there for trading DiceK?

 

I just thought with your crystal ball you could hook a brotha up;)

[TedWilliams101]

What rational argument is there for trading DiceK?

 

He is a pain in the ass prima-donna?

[BSN07]

BUt he haD 18 winz lazt seezon!

[Dipre]

He is a pain in the ass prima-donna?

 

And how does that add up from a business and team improvement standpoint?

 

BUt he haD 18 winz lazt seezon!

 

But we have a 103 million dollar investment in him that the team will not simply swallow.

[TheKilo]

He is a pain in the ass prima-donna?

 

So was Pedro.

 

BUt he haD 18 winz lazt seezon!

 

Is this supposed to be funny or something?