Trade/DL DiceK?

[Rdsxmbnt]

Especially after the high accolades that Penny gave the same program...

[BoSox21]

I cant fault him for the WBC decision but he absolutely needs to start listening to the FO regarding his shoulder. He went through the same thing last year

[Teddyballgame10]

WBC was the FO fault for not having the balls to tell him not to participate.

[Dojji]

Apparently he ignored the Sox strengthening program. I dunno about Dice-K, he seems so damn stubborn.

 

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/108513?eref=sircrc&eref=fromSI

 

Dear gods, there's stubborn and then there's deliberately working against your own best interest. Insanity.

[TheKilo]

Apparently he ignored the Sox strengthening program. I dunno about Dice-K, he seems so damn stubborn.

 

http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/108513?eref=sircrc&eref=fromSI

 

Francona already said this was not true on WEEI, the strength program is not optional for pitchers.

[VA Sox Fan]

Matsuzaka critical of Sox' methods, expresses frustration to team

 

Posted by David Lefort, Boston.com Staff July 28, 2009 09:48 AM

 

Red Sox pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka recently criticized the Red Sox in the Japanese media, blaming his struggles this season on the team’s throwing program and training regimen, and also expressed his frustration to the team in a face-to-face meeting at Fenway Park last week.

 

Matsuzaka claimed in a recently published Japanese newspaper article, which appeared in the Japanese publication Allatanys and translated to English and first reported in the Boston media by WEEI.com, that he is not confident he will have the same success he enjoyed in Japan in the major leagues if the Red Sox do not allow him to train the way he used to. Matsuzaka’s former regimen included marathon throwing sessions, which he says the Red Sox no longer allow him to do.

 

“If I’m forced to continue to train in this environment, I may no longer be able to pitch like I did in Japan,” Matsuzaka is quoted as saying in the article, according to WEEI.com’s translation. “The only reason why I managed to win games during the first and second years [in the United States] was because I used the savings of the shoulder I built up in Japan. Since I came to the Major Leagues, I couldn't train in my own way, so now I've lost all those savings.”

 

According to Nikkan Sports reporter Takaaki Yamauchi, who spoke to the Globe this morning from Fort Myers, Fla. (where the pitcher is rehabbing), Matsuzaka explained his dissatisfaction to the Red Sox during a 90-minute meeting with manager Terry Francona, general manager Theo Epstein, and pitching coach John Farrell at Fenway Park on July 24.

 

Specifically, Matsuzaka has recently been unhappy that the Red Sox are not allowing him to throw as often as he would like to. When Matsuzaka first reported to Florida earlier this month to rehabilitate his shoulder after being put on the disabled list for the second time this season, he was throwing (not pitching off of a mound) for two days, then resting his arm on the third day, according to Yamauchi. Now, Matsuzaka is limited to throwing for one day (again, not from a mound) and resting the next day. So instead of throwing two of every three days, he is now throwing one of every two.

 

Matsuzaka has been additionally frustrated by the fact that the Red Sox do not have a timetable for his return to the rotation, according to Yamauchi.

 

After that 90-minute meeting last week, Francona said Matsuzaka would continue to rehab in Fort Myers, Fla. and be examined by team doctors when the Red Sox are in Tampa Aug. 4-5. Francona gave no indication when Matsuzaka might begin throwing off a mound again.

 

“He looks great. It’s obvious he’s worked hard,’’ Francona said. “What we kind of arrived at is that rather than have a target date for a return -- I think that’s what we’ve done in the past -- we’re going to keep it to short goals.’’

 

Francona indicated that Matsuzaka “looks a lot stronger’’ and said the pitcher’s shoulder strength had “vastly’’ improved based on the team’s testing methods. Although the manager said he expected Matsuzaka to pitch again this season, logic suggests Matsuzaka will not do so before rosters expand Sept. 1.

 

Matsuzaka has made eight starts in 2009 with a 1-5 record and 8.23 ERA, a horrid stat line the Red Sox blamed primarily on the effects of him pitching for the Japanese team in the World Baseball Classic before the season.

 

In the Allatanys article, which was written by Taeko Yoshii, who has also penned at least two Matsuzaka-related books, Matsuzaka said he thinks the difference in training methods between the United States in Japan is the reason why Japanese pitchers tend to have a couple of good seasons before seeing a dropoff in performance.

 

"I know that there are Japanese starters who came to the United States before me only have two or three successful years,” Matsuzka said, according to the Globe’s translation. “I now believe that it is because of a difference in training and conditioning methods.

 

“If I don't act, people in the Major League Baseball will never change their attitude toward it. I need them to understand this. It is more than just about myself but future Japanese pitchers who come over to the United States."

 

The Globe’s Daigo Fujiwara contributed to this report. Background information from the Globe’s Tony Massarotti was also used.

[BSN07]

I see Dice-K being dealt this off season.

[Dojji]

Well, that's not surprising. There have been hints that Daisuke has been resisting doing things our way.

 

One would think that the fact that he's the one pitcher resisting our shoulder regimen, and the one pitcher with serious shoulder problems over the last 2 years, would have rung a bell by now. I mean they got Brad Penny capturing his peak velocity which he hasn't seen in years with that system. Maybe if daisuke finally buys in, he gets his 94 MPH fastball he came across the Pacific with back.

[BSN07]

It's funny how he blames the FO. And not that the quality of hitters is better in the States. It has nothing to do with him, just the FO throwing program:rolleyes:

 

Bye Dice-K, thanks for 07 & 08. Hope you bring back someone useful.

[TheKilo]

This has excuse written all over it. Bad form, DiceK.

[BSN07]

After a couple seasons of Dice-K, he comes off as being kind of a diva.

[a700hitter]

I see Dice-K being dealt this off season.

I don't think he'll get traded this off season for two reasons:

 

1. His Market Value will be way down. I don't think they will want to sell low.

 

2. Trading him 3 years into a 6 year contract that cost the Sox $104 million would be a bitter failure pill to swallow. They have already admitted failure on Lugo and eaten $9 million, and Drew is stinking up the joint too. Of the 3 acquisitions made in the 2006 offseason, it is looking like none of that money was well spent.

[BSN07]

I don't think he'll get traded this off season for two reasons:

 

1. His Market Value will be way down. I don't think they will want to sell low.

 

2. Trading him 3 years into a 6 year contract that cost the Sox $104 million would be a bitter failure pill to swallow. They have already admitted failure on Lugo and eaten $9 million, and Drew is stinking up the joint too. Of the 3 acquisitions made in the 2006 offseason, it is looking like none of that money was well spent.

 

Yes his value might be down. But I would bet other pitching short teams would value him(NYM comes to mind).

 

If the return for him was of value then I don't think the overall move of paying 104M for Dice-K is all that bad. They got a WS and 2 very good seasons out of him. Plus add in the fact that they were able to get Tazawa because of there popularity in Japan. Overall it would seem to be a good not great transaction. Which is fine.

 

If they keep him and he continues to fight them and stink up the place they risk getting nothing back for him. Some team out there will take a chance on him. I think he could go to the NL and be very good. The NL is set up so much better for his style IMO.

[Mr Crunchy]

Well the boy did win a lot of games in his 1st 2 years in Boston including game 7 of the 07 pennant but lets face it, hes never ever looked dominant in the majors and his record this year speaks for itself.

Good to see the honorable Japanese taking pages from the Roger Clemens book of excuses.

How does blow me comma you sushi eating touchole translate in Japanese?

[BSN07]

Well the boy did win a lot of games in his 1st 2 years in Boston including game 7 of the 07 pennant but lets face it, hes never ever looked dominant in the majors and his record this year speaks for itself.

Good to see the honorable Japanese taking pages from the Roger Clemens book of excuses.

How does blow me comma you sushi eating touchole translate in Japanese?

 

[a700hitter]

Yes his value might be down. But I would bet other pitching short teams would value him(NYM comes to mind).

 

If the return for him was of value then I don't think the overall move of paying 104M for Dice-K is all that bad. They got a WS and 2 very good seasons out of him. Plus add in the fact that they were able to get Tazawa because of there popularity in Japan. Overall it would seem to be a good not great transaction. Which is fine.

 

If they keep him and he continues to fight them and stink up the place they risk getting nothing back for him. Some team out there will take a chance on him. I think he could go to the NL and be very good. The NL is set up so much better for his style IMO.

You didn't address my larger point that it would be a huge admission of failure. I don't think the FO is willing to go down that road. JH is not going to tolerate a pattern of failure from Theo. Theo is going to try to make this work.

[BSN07]

Yes I addressed it saying it wouldn't be a failure if they brought in someone of consequence.

 

2 good season from Dice-K+(player(s) you would get back for him)+WS+ Oki and Tazawa doesn't equal failure in my book.

 

Dice-K might not be the main reason the Sox got Oki and Tazawa. But I'm sure he helped. Tazawa did take less money to play for the Sox.

 

He might be ready to come up next season. Thus giving the Sox another player to promote in the Asian market.

 

Yes if you looked at just his 6 year deal and not the other intangibles it would be a failure. But added all the other stuff in and it's not.

[Mr Crunchy]

Are you still puffin on that hi test BSN?

i had a z of some rather fresh bud i had to drop off with a friend who lives in a large apt complex in Jamaica Plain and as we were walking into his unit the security guard held the door for us,

I in turn held the door for him so he could walk in front of me as the thing i was carrying stunk like a dead bastard rat baking in the heat of July....an hour later as I left the apartment the Boston Animal Control officer was outside the door looking confused,bewildered and quite pissed off.

the guy asked me if I had seen a skunk walking nearby and I sheepishly replied Ne parle pas anglais monsieur Gend'arme as I held my nose in mock disgust.

True story

[BSN07]

Are you still puffin on that hi test BSN?

i had a z of some rather fresh bud i had to drop off with a friend who lives in a large apt complex in Jamaica Plain and as we were walking into his unit the security guard held the door for us,

I in turn held the door for him so he could walk in front of me as the thing i was carrying stunk like a dead bastard rat baking in the heat of July....an hour later as I left the apartment the Boston Animal Control officer was outside the door looking confused,bewildered and quite pissed off.

the guy asked me if I had seen a skunk walking nearby and I sheepishly replied Ne parle pas anglais monsieur Gend'arme as I held my nose in mock disgust.

True story

 

:lol::lol:

 

Of course man you know it. Switched to hash recently though;) Can't beat the quality!

[a700hitter]

Yes I addressed it saying it wouldn't be a failure if they brought in someone of consequence.

 

2 good season from Dice-K+(player(s) you would get back for him)+WS+ Oki and Tazawa doesn't equal failure in my book..

I disagree that they would get anyone of consequence in return, and I think two decent years would be looked upon as a failure when the FO expected a dominating pitcher in his prime.

[BSN07]

I disagree that they would get anyone of consequence in return' date=' and I think two decent years would be looked upon as a failure when the FO expected a dominating pitcher in his prime.[/quote']

 

You can't see a NL team interested in a SP that has 34 wins and a 4.11 ERA in the AL East? Not sure what planet you live on.

 

Maybe they wouldn't want to give up their top couple prospects. But I'm sure he could get back a couple decent players. Throw in a prospect or two and he could bring back an impact player.

 

Yes there is a health concern. But players have been moved with bigger issues. Throw in the fact that he's signed for 8M a season. When most mid to top of rotation guys make more then that.

[Dojji]

Put it this way. The kind of guys we'd get for Daisuke are more the types I'd be interested in than anyone that would excite you, at least for now. Young A-ballers with unrealized potential or higher players who are a bit old but with solid skillsets.

[yankeessuck013]

Shut your sushi hole, Dice K

[TheKilo]

I don't think he'll get traded this off season for two reasons:

 

1. His Market Value will be way down. I don't think they will want to sell low.

 

2. Trading him 3 years into a 6 year contract that cost the Sox $104 million would be a bitter failure pill to swallow. They have already admitted failure on Lugo and eaten $9 million, and Drew is stinking up the joint too. Of the 3 acquisitions made in the 2006 offseason, it is looking like none of that money was well spent.

 

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/10/20/soxx-large.jpg

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/29/1193635192_6180.jpg

[TheKilo]

You can't see a NL team interested in a SP that has 34 wins and a 4.11 ERA in the AL East? Not sure what planet you live on.

 

Maybe they wouldn't want to give up their top couple prospects. But I'm sure he could get back a couple decent players. Throw in a prospect or two and he could bring back an impact player.

 

Yes there is a health concern. But players have been moved with bigger issues. Throw in the fact that he's signed for 8M a season. When most mid to top of rotation guys make more then that.

 

You've given nothing but reasons as to why the Sox shouldn't trade DiceK.

[BSN07]

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/_photos/2007/10/20/soxx-large.jpg

 

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Photo/2007/10/29/1193635192_6180.jpg

 

LOL

 

Oki- Good-Great

Dice-K- Ok-Good

Drew- Good

Lugo- Horrible

 

Of course a700 probably expected these guys to be perennial AS;) lol

[a700hitter]

You can't see a NL team interested in a SP that has 34 wins and a 4.11 ERA in the AL East? Not sure what planet you live on.

 

Maybe they wouldn't want to give up their top couple prospects. But I'm sure he could get back a couple decent players. Throw in a prospect or two and he could bring back an impact player.

I don't think his win total will be highly valued in light of the fact that he rarely gets beyond the 5th inning. If he doesn't come back strong in September, teams will not be clamoring for a guy with an 8+ ERA. If you are talking about getting back some prospects for him, that could happenn, but getting a few prospects three years into the contract would be viewed as a huge failure by management that expected to be getting a dominant pitcher in his prime. He has never approached what he was billed as.

[TheKilo]

Tough crowd, 18 wins and a sub 3 ERA and "he has never approached what he was billed as".

[BSN07]

You've given nothing but reasons as to why the Sox shouldn't trade DiceK.

 

Yes I have. I think he was very good for his first 2 years. It's what he has become I don't really care for. Thus making my opinion about wanting to trade him.

[BSN07]

Tough crowd' date=' 18 wins and a sub 3 ERA and "he has never approached what he was billed as".[/quote']

 

The 3ERA was nice. The fact he can't pitch passed the 6th and his attitude towards the throwing program leave much to be desired.