Catch-All Papelbon Thread

[TheKilo]

THE FO IS RACIST

[Dipre]

Trying to get rid of all the colorful characters?

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the most colorful character in the game plays 2nd base for this team.

[a700hitter]

Trying to get rid of all the colorful characters?

 

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the most colorful character in the game plays 2nd base for this team.

Give them time.

[CrespoBlows]

Give them time.

 

http://www.banklawyersblog.com/.a/6a00d8341c652b53ef01156f777a8a970c-800wi

[example1]

Say good bye to being a consistent playoff contender too. Those years that they make the playoffs by less than 5 games they will finish out of the money' date=' because his replacement will be responsible for 3 - 5 more blown saves.[/quote']

 

Yes' date=' sadly, I have seen this movie before. With those other guys, they had age/injury related issues. Papelbon will be right in his prime when he becomes a FA. Hopefully, the FO will see the value in keeping him. I don't want to go back to the days of Heathcliff Slocumb et. al.[/quote']

 

You still don't trust this FO to build a sustainable winning team? Plenty of teams have good closers and don't make the playoffs, and plenty of teams have mediocre closers and beat the Red Sox in the ALCS. Your pessimism and Papelboncentrism is kind of weird.

 

If Papelbon wants to be the highest paid closer in the history of the game then he will be doing it somewhere other than Boston and I wouldn't blame the FO one bit. If he wants to be close to the highest paid closer, make an absurd amount of money and stay with a fanbase that really likes him, then he can do it in Boston.

[example1]

Give them time.

 

Again, with the negativity.

 

You say that the last few years of being a Sox fan has been second only to Sex in terms of its enjoyability, yet you act like you're trapped in 1992.

[a700hitter]

You still don't trust this FO to build a sustainable winning team? Plenty of teams have good closers and don't make the playoffs' date=' and plenty of teams have mediocre closers and beat the Red Sox in the ALCS. Your pessimism and Papelboncentrism is kind of weird. [/quote']As usual Example, you always play amateur psychologist and make erroneous conclusions regarding the thoughts of others. Where did I say that I don't trust this FO to build a sustainable winning team? How did you get that from my posts in this thread? I don't know whether the FO will sign Papelbon long term, but apparently you do. IMO, it would be a mistake to let him walk unless there is a health concern. That's my opinion. Let me reiterate, that I don't know what the FO will do. If they let him walk and it is a mistake, they are smart and talented enough with sufficiently deep pockets to make other moves to recover. Can an issue ever be discussed with you where you don't try to turn it into some sort of referendum on whether the FO is "Good or Evil" with you trying to make me take the "Evil" side of the argument?

 

I differ with you regarding the importance of a "lock down" closer. I happen to think that it is very important to a team's consistent year in and year out competitiveness, e.g. the Yankees. The Rays as you pointed out don't have a good closer and they made the playoffs last year, but this year they are playing very inconsistently, and they will probably not make the playoffs. You can blame it on plenty of things, but the fact is that their late innings bullpen has been horrendous.

 

With regard to the FO using the press to destroy players, Crunchy listed a bunch of them. IMO, when the FO is done with a player, they will use the press to destroy the player's public image to reduce the fan backlash when the player walks. That's my opinion. Will they do that with Papelbon and/or Pedroia? If they decide to part company with those two players in a few years, I would not be surprised to see negative press about them. Would you?

[a700hitter]

Again, with the negativity.

 

You say that the last few years of being a Sox fan has been second only to Sex in terms of its enjoyability, yet you act like you're trapped in 1992.

Example, I really don't care much if they destroy a guy in the press when they are done with him. I think it is a s***** thing to do, but I don't root for the FO or for the former players who leave on bad terms. I root for the fellas in uniform, and no press side show could dampen my enjoyment of that. So take that you... walking misery.

[example1]

IMO' date=' it would be a mistake to let him walk unless there is a health concern. That's my opinion. Let me reiterate, that I don't know what the FO will do. [/quote']

 

I just don't see how anyone who has watched this FO can make this statement without at least involving a discussion about the money involved. If Papelbon demands $20m a year would it be a mistake? I think so.

 

Furthermore, I think that you DO have a good idea of what this FO will do. They will set a value and they will stick to it. They may flex a bit here or there, but they aren't going to pay huge sums of money for a closer if they don't feel he's worth it.

 

Why these discussions never revolve around the ACTUAL value of a player I just don't get. It is usually something like "they can't make it without the wins that Papelbon contributes", but with no reference to the wins he contributes or even about how the FO would make that determination. Win Shares, WARP, VORP, etc., would all be reasonable ways of looking at it and might approximate what the FO would look at. We aren't stumbling blindly here a700.

 

I differ with you regarding the importance of a "lock down" closer. I happen to think that it is very important to a team's consistent year in and year out competitiveness, e.g. the Yankees.

 

I don't disagree. I think a "lock down" closer is a great thing to have. The question is, at what expense? If they offer him 17m a year and he blows out his arm in year two and can't top 91mph thereafter, they would have screwed themselves. They won't put themselves into a situation where that is the case.

 

With regard to the FO using the press to destroy players, Crunchy listed a bunch of them. IMO, when the FO is done with a player, they will use the press to destroy the player's public image to reduce the fan backlash when the player walks. That's my opinion. Will they do that with Papelbon and/or Pedroia? If they decide to part company with those two players in a few years, I would not be surprised to see negative press about them. Would you?

 

Pedroia is signed to a 6 year deal. I don't think they are interested in destroying his public image. Papelbon talking about going to the Yankees and wanting the absolute most amount of money--and presumably turning down lucrative multi-year, pre-arbitration deals in the process--is digging his own grave in Boston should he choose to exercise that right. Players have some say in how they are perceived when they leave Boston.

[a700hitter]

I just don't see how anyone who has watched this FO can make this statement without at least involving a discussion about the money involved. If Papelbon demands $20m a year would it be a mistake? I think so.

 

Furthermore, I think that you DO have a good idea of what this FO will do. They will set a value and they will stick to it. They may flex a bit here or there, but they aren't going to pay huge sums of money for a closer if they don't feel he's worth it..

 

Why these discussions never revolve around the ACTUAL value of a player I just don't get. It is usually something like "they can't make it without the wins that Papelbon contributes", but with no reference to the wins he contributes or even about how the FO would make that determination. Win Shares, WARP, VORP, etc., would all be reasonable ways of looking at it and might approximate what the FO would look at. We aren't stumbling blindly here a700.

I think I can render an opinion that losing Papelbon would be detrimental to the team's onfield performance without discussing finances. I wasn't getting into a discussion of his market value. I am not a baseball executive. I am a fan. I do know that the Red Sox are one of the wealthiest franchises in sports so they can afford to offer Papelbon the going rate for "lock down" closers. Whether or not they choose to offer him a market value contract, if he leaves it will be detrimental to the team's performance IMO.

 

I don't disagree. I think a "lock down" closer is a great thing to have. The question is' date=' at what expense? If they offer him 17m a year and he blows out his arm in year two and can't top 91mph thereafter, they would have screwed themselves. They won't put themselves into a situation where that is the case. [/quote']Like I said before, the Sox can pay the market rate. If the Yankees are willing to pay 25 percent more than every other team, that would not be a market rate, but the Sox could certainly afford KRod money.

 

Pedroia is signed to a 6 year deal. I don't think they are interested in destroying his public image. .

Of course not. They don't do the hatchet job until they are ready to get rid of you. Wait until the end of year 5 and maybe it will be Nomar all over again.

[Dipre]

A700= Positive thinking FAIL.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Papelbon = last closer left on the face of the earth, no way we can afford to lose him.

[example1]

I think I can render an opinion that losing Papelbon would be detrimental to the team's onfield performance without discussing finances.

 

Yes, and you would be saying something that everyone in the world knows. As long as he isn't producing at a replacement-level it would be detrimental.

 

I wasn't getting into a discussion of his market value. I am not a baseball executive. I am a fan.

 

But you're more than that. You are a very knowledgable fan who discusses this team A LOT. The more complicated discussion certainly isn't beyond your abilities.

 

I do know that the Red Sox are one of the wealthiest franchises in sports so they can afford to offer Papelbon the going rate for "lock down" closers.

 

Okay, this is more like it. I agree. If Papelbon is willing to take K-Rod money, and see the "going rate" as the "rate that all teams not called the Yankees are willing to pay for a player" or the "rate that is relative to the overall earning that the team is likely to get by retaining his services", then we agree.

 

 

Like I said before, the Sox can pay the market rate. If the Yankees are willing to pay 25 percent more than every other team, that would not be a market rate, but the Sox could certainly afford KRod money.

 

We agree that they could afford it. Whether they see him as worth that amount is a different discussion.

[Spudboy]

Isn't he signed through 2011? Or is it 2010? In any case, I don't see the Sox over spending to keep him here. If Bard continues to learn and mature as a "closer in training", who needs Paps. I'd like to keep both but not if it takes $17-$20 mil/year. That's crazy money.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Isn't he signed through 2011? Or is it 2010? In any case' date=' I don't see the Sox over spending to keep him here. If Bard continues to learn and mature as a "closer in training", who needs Paps. I'd like to keep both but not if it takes $17-$20 mil/year. That's crazy money.[/quote']

Bard is not Paps, he's skinnier, doesn't have a goofy sense of humor, and doesn't go on annual deer hunts in the outbacks of Missishitti. Therefore, Bard is a n00bcake.

[a700hitter]

But you're more than that. You are a very knowledgable fan who discusses this team A LOT. The more complicated discussion certainly isn't beyond your abilities.

I just don't have the energy to engage in dueling spreadsheets every time I state an opinion about a player's performance. I didn't go anywhere near the issue of discussing his market value and the finances of the Red Sox, but thank you for trying to drag me there.

[SCM33]

Yes' date=' sadly, I have seen this movie before. With those other guys, they had age/injury related issues. Papelbon will be right in his prime when he becomes a FA. Hopefully, the FO will see the value in keeping him. I don't want to go back to the days of Heathcliff Slocumb et. al.[/quote']

 

Ahhh, thats going a little overboard. You honestly think the front office would replace him with the likes of a Heathcliff Slocumb?

 

In 1997, it was the end of the Slocumb debacle.

In 1998, Gordon had 46 saves.

In 1999, when Gordon fell apart, we saw the emergence of Derek Lowe

In 2000 Lowe had 42 saves.

In 2001 Lowe was a little shakier with 24 saves, but we brought in OOgie, and the team finished with 48 saves.

In 2002, Urbina saved 40 games.

In 2003 we had closer by committee, FML.

In 2004, Foulke was lights out.....the offensive clout limited his save opportunites.

In 2005, as a whole....the bullpen sucked as Foulke fizzled out.

In 2006, Papelbon emerged.

 

When, since Slocumb left were we ever really without a solid plan at the closer position besides the ill fated closer by committee? In 05, who would have expected Foulke to lose it that fast? The answer is that the RedSox have always had a plan moving forward since the Slocumb ordeal. Look, I dont want to get rid of the guy, but when he makes statements like that, then owell. If and when they let Papelbon go, there will be someone to replace him, and chances are, it will be a MLB ready prospect, or another superstar who wants a chance at a world series. Like the patriots starting doing long ago, I think the Sox put a value on a player, and dont go above it....like they showed with Varitek.

[a700hitter]

Ahhh, thats going a little overboard. You honestly think the front office would replace him with the likes of a Heathcliff Slocumb?

 

In 1997, it was the end of the Slocumb debacle.

In 1998, Gordon had 46 saves.

In 1999, when Gordon fell apart, we saw the emergence of Derek Lowe

In 2000 Lowe had 42 saves.

In 2001 Lowe was a little shakier with 24 saves, but we brought in OOgie, and the team finished with 48 saves.

In 2002, Urbina saved 40 games.

In 2003 we had closer by committee, FML.

In 2004, Foulke was lights out.....the offensive clout limited his save opportunites.

In 2005, as a whole....the bullpen sucked as Foulke fizzled out.

In 2006, Papelbon emerged.

 

When, since Slocumb left were we ever really without a solid plan at the closer position besides the ill fated closer by committee? In 05, who would have expected Foulke to lose it that fast? The answer is that the RedSox have always had a plan moving forward since the Slocumb ordeal. Look, I dont want to get rid of the guy, but when he makes statements like that, then owell. If and when they let Papelbon go, there will be someone to replace him, and chances are, it will be a MLB ready prospect, or another superstar who wants a chance at a world series. Like the patriots starting doing long the Sox put a value on a player, and dont go above it....like they showed with Varitek.

Your post proves my point. From 1998 on, we have had a bunch of closers. There was not the consistenct excellent performance from the closer spot throughout those years that Papelbon gives us. I don't know what the blown save totals were for Derek lowe while he was closing, but there were too many of them causing him to be shifted back to starting. Urbina's BS totals I don't know, but I was not too comfortable when he had the ball in his hands either.

[jacksonianmarch]

Most people attribute the yankees consistent overachieving in regards to the Pythag to Mo. When we got to the 8th with a lead, he locked it down. Paps is in that category. Not a lot of closers share that. The day he leaves is the day the sox pen gets beatable on a regular basis

[SCM33]

Most people attribute the yankees consistent overachieving in regards to the Pythag to Mo. When we got to the 8th with a lead' date=' he locked it down. Paps is in that category. Not a lot of closers share that. The day he leaves is the day the sox pen gets beatable on a regular basis[/quote']

 

Whos not to say that Bard becomes the guy? 700, I see the point you are making, but hes not completely irreplacable. Clearly Bard is not ready for that role yet, but I really doubt they let Paps walk without a thought out plan. Players come and go, as do closers. The Yankees are one of the few teams who have had only 1 guy doing the job for 10 plus years, I guess you can add Hoffman to that list before this season.

 

If Paps leaves, I would be excited to see what Bard could do......we arent the Angels, we wouldnt let K-Rod leave to replace him with Fuentes. The Sox are not cheap, they will offer Paps a reasonable deal, and if he doesnt take it, he will move on, and we will as well.

 

Of all the positions in baseball, the closer role is one that players seem to lose the touch for the easiest. Not many people make a career of it these days, and especially with one team. Closers fall off the map quickly, and we know Paps is one pitch away from blowing out his shoulder.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Bard's name isn't Papelbon. Therefore he's destined to be nothing but a n00bcake FAILbag. This memo went out a while ago.

[a700hitter]

Whos not to say that Bard becomes the guy? 700' date=' I see the point you are making, but hes not completely irreplaceable. [/quote']Of course, Bard has the ability, but we won't know until he has the job. We know that Papelbon is really, really good at the job. He's the best we've had in over 40 years. He was great right out of the box. Bard has gotten derailed before in the minors. If he gets the job after Papelbon, I'll be rooting for him to succeed, but I think it is risky to expect him to be the next Papelbon. You say that Papelbon is not irreplaceable, but as I have pointed out, he is the best in more than 40 years. Also, how many guys in all of baseball are as good as him? The answer is not many, if any. Replacing him would not be like changing tires on your car.

[a700hitter]

Bard's name isn't Papelbon. Therefore he's destined to be nothing but a n00bcake FAILbag. This memo went out a while ago.

Oh please. Go to sleep before your mommy sees that your light is still on you little twit. I am going to sleep because I have an early drive to Boston. I'll be at Fenway on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon, so I will not have the pleasure of breaking your tiny little hairless balls until Monday, unless you are also going to the games. I guess not. BTW I don't understand all this hating on papelbon. Very negative. Some would call it pessimistic.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Oh please. Go to sleep before your mommy sees that your light is still on you little twit. I am going to sleep because I have an early drive to Boston. I'll be at Fenway on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon' date=' so I will not have the pleasure of breaking your tiny little hairless balls until Monday, unless you are also going to the games. I guess not. BTW I don't understand all this hating on papelbon. Very negative. Some would call it pessimistic.[/quote']

1) My mom is dead. Jump off a cliff.

 

2) There is no 'hating on Papelbon' in here, its stating the fact that resigning him for asinine amounts of money when we have one of the deepest farm systems in the game. Not that you would know that, because you hate every single prospect in the system.

 

3) Tiny little hairless balls > purple, defunct egg sack that sags below the knees, gramps. That's assuming you really are 49, I'm more convinced that you're about 13 given your insult attempts and fairly low knowledge about the finer aspects of baseball, such as stats and the farm system.

[a700hitter]

1) My mom is dead. Jump off a cliff.

 

2) There is no 'hating on Papelbon' in here, its stating the fact that resigning him for asinine amounts of money when we have one of the deepest farm systems in the game. Not that you would know that, because you hate every single prospect in the system.

 

3) Tiny little hairless balls > purple, defunct egg sack that sags below the knees, gramps. That's assuming you really are 49, I'm more convinced that you're about 13 given your insults and apparent intellect level.

Wow, touchy! Too bad about your mom. Sorry about that. But you are still a nasty little prick.

[SCM33]

Oh please. Go to sleep before your mommy sees that your light is still on you little twit. I am going to sleep because I have an early drive to Boston. I'll be at Fenway on Saturday night and Sunday afternoon' date=' so I will not have the pleasure of breaking your tiny little hairless balls until Monday, unless you are also going to the games. I guess not. BTW I don't understand all this hating on papelbon. Very negative. Some would call it pessimistic.[/quote']

 

I do see all of your points, and I am not hating on Papelbon.

I am just being a little realistic about the situtation when Papelbon walks away, if he does. We all love him, we all root for him, but its not all about that unfortuneately, as you know there is a business side, and I just dont see him sticking around if he expects K-Rod type money, which he will since he is better.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Wow' date=' touchy! Too bad about your mom. Sorry about that. But you are still a nasty little prick.[/quote']

Pot meet kettle X 20.

 

 

f*** off.

[Dipre]

Papelbon wants to break Rivera money, and no reliever deserves Rivera money.

 

No one hates Papelbon, it's just unrealistic to think he's worth more than 10 per at the most.

[a700hitter]

I do see all of your points, and I am not hating on Papelbon.

I am just being a little realistic about the situtation when Papelbon walks away, if he does. We all love him, we all root for him, but its not all about that unfortuneately, as you know there is a business side, and I just dont see him sticking around if he expects K-Rod type money, which he will since he is better.

I think a lot of us think the Sox would go for KRod money. Of course, there is the possibility that the Yankees blow off everyone's doors, but if they don't, I think the FO will keep him in Boston. But I am just a pessimist.

[a700hitter]

Papelbon wants to break Rivera money, and no reliever deserves Rivera money.

 

No one hates Papelbon, it's just unrealistic to think he's worth more than 10 per at the most.

Doesn't KRod get $13 million?