Michael Young demands trade, Rangers exploring options

[redsoxrules]

Not really.

 

He's an awful SS and at $62/5 , his contact bat and awful defense are both no-nos

 

HE WAS RANKED 2ND IN DEFENSE LAST YEAR BEHIND OCAB

his defense is underated

 

he also led the AL in winshare for SS last year

[diony]

HE WAS RANKED 2ND IN DEFENSE LAST YEAR BEHIND OCAB

his defense is underated

 

he also led the AL in winshare for SS last year

 

Show me stats.

 

He was 2nd in Fielding%, but that's useless.

[redsoxrules]

THT Win Shares

Year Last First Tm Lg Pos Batting Pitching Fielding ExpWS WSP WSAB Total WS

2008 Young M TEX AL SS 12.4 0.0 7.3 18 .560 7 20 20

2008 Peralta J CLE AL SS 12.5 0.0 6.7 17 .551 7 19 84

2008 Jeter D NYA AL SS 14.1 0.0 4.3 17 .530 6 18 320

2008 Aviles M KC AL SS 11.6 0.0 5.5 12 .730 9 17 17

2008 Cabrera O CHA AL SS 9.4 0.0 8.0 19 .454 4 17 169

2008 Aybar E LAA AL SS 8.6 0.0 6.1 10 .726 8 15 18

2008 Scutaro M TOR AL SS 10.0 0.0 4.7 16 .461 4 15 57

2008 Bartlett J TB AL SS 8.0 0.0 5.3 14 .493 4 13 48

2008 Harris B MIN AL SS 7.3 0.0 3.8 13 .421 2 11 25

2008 Renteria E DET AL SS 6.8 0.0 3.8 14 .369 1 11 211

2008 Izturis M LAA AL SS 6.2 0.0 4.7 9 .633 5 11 46

2008 Crosby B OAK AL SS 4.6 0.0 5.3 16 .303 -2 10 46

2008 Punto N MIN AL SS 6.1 0.0 4.0 10 .494 3 10 37

2008 Zobrist B TB AL SS 6.2 0.0 2.0 6 .675 4 8 8

2008 Eckstein D TOR AL SS 5.5 0.0 1.4 8 .440 1 7 110

2008 Lowrie J BOS AL SS 4.7 0.0 2.5 8 .438 1 7 7

2008 Betancourt Y SEA AL SS 4.4 0.0 3.1 16 .237 -4 7 41

[redsoxrules]

Year Last First Tm Lg Pos Inn PO A TE FE FPct DPS DPT BIZ Plays RZR OOZ

2008 Young Michael TEX AL SS 1289 193 465 6 5 .984 58 50 426 362 .850 41

2008 Jeter Derek NYA AL SS 1258 220 347 7 5 .979 31 31 335 281 .839 29

2008 Cabrera Orlando CHA AL SS 1389 242 472 6 10 .978 51 41 422 352 .834 57

2008 Crosby Bobby OAK AL SS 1263 202 384 13 4 .972 47 45 347 283 .816 43

2008 Peralta Jhonny CLE AL SS 1271 217 427 5 9 .979 45 54 401 326 .813 41

2008 Bartlett Jason A TB AL SS 1097 204 309 11 5 .970 35 30 285 230 .807 44

2008 Renteria Edgar DET AL SS 1173 197 365 5 11 .972 56 32 355 284 .800 42

2008 Betancourt Yuniesky SEA AL SS 1325 237 401 9 12 .968 40 54 378 302 .799 33

 

 

ZRZevised Zone Rating is the proportion of balls hit into a fielder's zone that he successfully converted into an out. Zone Rating was invented by John Dewan when he was CEO of Stats Inc. John is now the owner of Baseball Info Solutions, where he has revised the original Zone Rating calculation so that it now lists balls handled out of the zone (OOZ) separately (and doesn't include them in the ZR calculation) and doesn't give players extra credit for double plays (Stats had already made that change). We believe both changes improve Zone Ratings substantially. To get a full picture of a player's range, you should evaluate both his Revised Zone Rating and his plays made out of zone (OOZ).

[redsoxrules]

RF range factor

 

 

Orlando Cabrera, CWS 161 160 1390.2 730 242 472 16 101 .978 4.62 .000

Michael Young, Tex 151 150 1289.0 669 193 465 11 113 .984 4.59 .000

Jhonny Peralta, Cle 146 143 1271.1 658 217 427 14 104 .979 4.56 .000

Yuniesky Betancourt, Sea 153 150 1325.1 659 237 401 21 98 .968 4.33 .000

Edgar Renteria, Det 138 134 1173.1 578 197 365 16 91 .972 4.31 .000

Jason Bartlett, TB 125 122 1097.0 529 204 309 16 69 .970 4.21 .000

Bobby Crosby, Oak 145 144 1263.0 602 202 383 17 99 .972 4.17 .000

Derek Jeter, NYY 148 147 1259.2 579 220 347 12 69 .979 4.05 .000

[BSN07]

Nice post's RSR.

 

 

Young's D isn't as bad as I thought. But going forward as he ages it's only bound to get worse. And moving to 2B isn't an option in Boston.

[diony]

Michael Young's Value

by Dave Cameron

November 6, 2008

 

Today, Michael Young was named the Gold Glove winner for the American League at shortstop, a selection that rivals some of the worst picks the managers have ever made. Young is, by pretty much every defensive metric out there, one of the worst defensive shortstops in the game. He’s a second baseman playing out of position, and his lack of range shows every time a ball is hit up the middle.

 

However, this column isn’t about the Gold Gloves. They’ve been a joke of an award for years, and most people realize that by now. Instead, this is about the amazing ability of the mainstream media, along with people in the game, to totally ignore the collapse of Young’s value over the last three years.

 

In 2005, Young was a pretty terrific player, even with the poor defense. He hit .331/.385/.513 in 732 plate appearances, combining quantity with quality to post a 2.50 WPA/LI. Even knocking 10 to 15 runs off his total for his lack of range, he was still an all-star quality player, because the bat was that good.

 

That’s the player he’s still remembered as - an offensive force at a premium position. It hasn’t been true for three years, however.

 

In 2006, he .314/.356/.459, still good by shortstop standards, but a pretty substantial drop in offensive value nonetheless. His WPA/LI fell to 0.86, meaning he was about 1.6 wins worse as a hitter than the season before. However, because he accumulated 217 hits, the drop in production mostly went unnoticed. In fact, before the next season began, Young was given a 5 year, $80 million contract extension that covered 2009 to 2013. The Rangers saw him lose a substantial portion of his value, and reacted by giving him a massive contract that covered his age 33 to 37 seasons.

 

Clearly, Texas thought he was more like his ‘05 performance than his ‘06 performance, and would rebound in ‘07. He didn’t - Again, he hit racked up 200 hits, but his line fell to .315/.366/.418, losing even more of his power, and again seeing his WPA/LI decline, this time to 0.73. For two years, he’d be an above average (but not great) hitter, even while posting one of the highest averages in the league.

 

In 2008, the average deserted him, as he fell to .284/.339/.402, and his WPA/LI fell to -0.60. For the first time since 2003, he was a below average hitter. For a guy who is a pretty significant liability defensively, his value is built on his bat, and when that disappears, he becomes a problem.

 

Michael Young heads into 2009 with $80 million guaranteed to him over the next five years. To justify that salary, he’d have to be an all-star caliber player, worth approximately three wins more than a replacement level shortstop.

 

In reality, projections for Young in ‘09 have him as slightly below average with the bat, as he comes in about -5 runs or so. The position adjustment for shortstop is about +10 runs, so that puts him back up above average, but he gives all of that right back with his poor defense, where he usually ranks as a -15 or so defender. Finally, we have to add 20 runs to convert from average to replacement level, leaving us with the following:

 

-5 offense + 10 position adjustment - 15 defense + 20 replacement level = +10 runs.

 

Michael Young’s current skillset makes him worth about one win above a replacement level shortstop, the kind you could get floating around on waivers. One win. The Rangers are going to pay him $16 million for that one win, and hope like crazy that the decline doesn’t continue at its current rate.

 

Meanwhile, most of baseball just continues to believe that Young is a premium player, the kind of guy winning teams are built around. It’s just not true - he’s not even league average at this point in his career.

 

Don’t believe the hype. Michael Young just isn’t very good.

From Fangraphs

Link

[redsoxrules]

so where in that article is there stats to prove his s***** defense? all it talks about its WPA/LI ( wich has nothing to do with defense)

 

there just bassicaly saying his defense sucks as an opinion

[example1]

This might be a good opening to a discussion about which 'stats' or 'metrics' one should use when evaluating a player.

 

I tend to look at VORP and WARP. Lately I've been looking more at WARP, as it tries to include defense as part of it's measurement.

 

WARP-wise, Young has done this:

 

[table] Year | WARP

2001 | 2.0

2002 | 3.0

2003 | 3.7

2004 | 5.1

2005 | 7.4

2006 | 8.5

2007 | 5.9

2008 | 8.1 [/table]

 

Now, I wouldn't have been able to predict that Young's production in 2006 and 2008 would have given his team more wins above replacement than 2004 or 2005, but apparently they do, probably because of his much better defensive rating in those seasons.

 

[table] Year | HR | RBI | BA | OBP | SLG | FRAR | FRAA| WARP

2004 | 22 | 99 | .313 | .353 | .483 | 8 | -14 | 5.1

2005 | 24 | 91 | .331 | .385 | .513 | 6 | -17 | 7.4

2006 | 14 | 103 | .314 | .356 | .459 | 39 | 17 | 8.5

2007 | 9 | 94 | .315 | .366 | .418 | 19 | -1 | 5.9

2008 | 12 | 82 | .284 | .339 | .402 | 45 | 18 | 8.1 [/table]

 

 

Does that mean defensive performance is too heavily rated? I don't think so, especially not for a SS. His fielding seems to have fluctuated from season to season, with a slight improvement over the past few years.

 

All in all, I think calls of Young being "way overrated" are from many of the same people who would have quickly "overrated" Derek Jeter when his defense sucked and his offense was well above average (i.e., they would have underrated or not rated his defense). At the same time, it looks like without a good defensive season Young hurts his overall value and the record of recent offensive-minded SS's defensive performance in Boston hasn't been stellar (I'm thinking of Renteria and Lugo, in particular).

 

I don't know. I don't think Young would be a bad addition to this team if the Rangers somehow paid for some of his salary or took Lugo or something. I don't think they will so that cancels the value of the deal in my mind.

[The Bloody Sox]

From Fangraphs

 

So quoting a biased blog is suppose to convince people of how atrocious Young is?

[CrespoBlows]

Young played terrific defense in 2008, and hasn't had a s***** year defensively since 2005.

 

I'd look into him, but I wouldn't pay more than $8 million.

[example1]

Young played terrific defense in 2008, and hasn't had a s***** year defensively since 2005.

 

I'd look into him, but I wouldn't pay more than $8 million.

 

Exactly. Perhaps a deal that involves Buchholz instead of Bowden, getting Salty or Ramirez back as a catcher, involves Lugo and maybe another prospect like Bard.

 

I don't know:

 

Buchholz

Bard

(someone else)

Lugo

 

 

for

 

Salty or Ramirez

Young

 

Rangers get two solid young arms and lose some salary. Overall, I don't really like it but I think Young would help this team for a few years. I just don't see the Sox going there unless a guy like Teagarden came back and even then it might not be worth it.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Buchholz

Bard

(someone else)

Lugo

 

 

for

 

Salty or Ramirez

Young

 

Michael Almanzar. Texas wants a third base prospect in return.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Young played terrific defense in 2008, and hasn't had a s***** year defensively since 2005.

 

I'd look into him, but I wouldn't pay more than $8 million.

Problem being, we'll have to pay out the ass just to acquire Young and a catcher. Forget about asking the Rangers to eat salary on top of it.

[example1]

Michael Almanzar. Texas wants a third base prospect in return.

 

Nah. We already gave them Engel Beltre for Gagne. We should stop trading them our huge upside guys to get possible win now guys. I think Will Middlebrooks, who is a TX native and has some 3B in him. Honestly, I would don't think the Sox would be getting a whole heck of a lot back in a trade like that. If they were to give up any high upside fielders (Middlebrooks, Almanzar) they shouldn't have to give up Buchholz. Maybe Bowden or Masterson.

 

You know a player who I think should garner more interest but never has: Devern Hansack. He's had roughly a K per inning, a WHIP consistently under 1.20, and he doesn't walk a lot of guys. I mean, he's nothing to get excited about, but his numbers don't appear too different from Kason Gabbard's. Yes, he's a bit older, and his upside isn't much, but who was the last impressive pitcher in Texas? Seriously, this guy can at least give some innings, which is more than I can say for some of the other shite they've thrown out there in the past, what, 15 years?

[CrespoBlows]

Nah. We already gave them Engel Beltre for Gagne. We should stop trading them our huge upside guys to get possible win now guys. I think Will Middlebrooks, who is a TX native and has some 3B in him. Honestly, I would don't think the Sox would be getting a whole heck of a lot back in a trade like that. If they were to give up any high upside fielders (Middlebrooks, Almanzar) they shouldn't have to give up Buchholz. Maybe Bowden or Masterson.

 

You know a player who I think should garner more interest but never has: Devern Hansack. He's had roughly a K per inning, a WHIP consistently under 1.20, and he doesn't walk a lot of guys. I mean, he's nothing to get excited about, but his numbers don't appear too different from Kason Gabbard's. Yes, he's a bit older, and his upside isn't much, but who was the last impressive pitcher in Texas? Seriously, this guy can at least give some innings, which is more than I can say for some of the other shite they've thrown out there in the past, what, 15 years?

 

He's a AAAA guy.

 

I have trouble getting behind 30 year old pitchers in AAA ball. Gabbard was, at least, 24 years old.

[BSN07]

Nah. We already gave them Engel Beltre for Gagne. We should stop trading them our huge upside guys to get possible win now guys. I think Will Middlebrooks' date=' who is a TX native and has some 3B in him. Honestly, I would don't think the Sox would be getting a whole heck of a lot back in a trade like that. If they were to give up any high upside fielders (Middlebrooks, Almanzar) they shouldn't have to give up Buchholz. Maybe Bowden or Masterson.[/quote']

 

Texas has already said they want a young 3B prospect in any deal for Young.

[diony]

So quoting a biased blog is suppose to convince people of how atrocious Young is?

 

Yeah the site is biased against MICHAEL YOUNG! I never thought of that. Idiot

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

They must be. Or maybe they just never looked at the stats. Either way, they're wrong.

[The Bloody Sox]

Yeah the site is biased against MICHAEL YOUNG! I never thought of that. Idiot

 

It's a blog. Anybody can write whatever they want no matter how wrong they may be. Using that as a credible source to back up your misinformed judgments on Young is laughable. I suppose I could start my own blog and write about how Ortiz is terrible and washed up with a few stats to prove it.

[diony]

It's a blog. Anybody can write whatever they want no matter how wrong they may be. Using that as a credible source to back up your misinformed judgments on Young is laughable. I suppose I could start my own blog and write about how Ortiz is terrible and washed up with a few stats to prove it.

 

Fangraphs is a great site, you should actually visit it before talking so much ********.

 

But okay, show me a source that proves Young is a great defensive shortstop. A credible one, come on go ahead. Is really easy to call my source biased.

 

If he's such a good shortstop, one of the best in the league, and just won a Gold Glove Award why they want to move him and his 80/5 contract and .741 OPS to 3B just to give the position to Elvis Andrus, a 20 year old shortstop with no power that hasn't even played above AA?

 

Because Andrus, is a great defensive shortstop, and he can actually field to his left side, unlike Young. Is not because of his bat, that's for sure. Young is a 5 time All Star.

 

Gold Glove Award mean nothing, even Jeter won one. Young has been an horrible defender his entire career, but in 2008 he was below average. Will he keep improving for the next 5 years? Nope.

 

In fact, as a Yankee fan. I would love to see you guys get Michael Young. :thumbsup:

[redsoxrules]

 

But okay, show me a source that proves Young is a great defensive shortstop. A credible one, come on go ahead. Is really easy to call my source biased.

 

 

I did , you didn't see the stats I posted earlier in this thread ?

[Cocos Disciples]

I'm with diony on the FanGraphs topic; it's a really awesome site.

[redsoxrules]

I'm with diony on the FanGraphs topic; it's a really awesome site.

 

ok ...so the stats I pulled out ( that showed Young was in fact a good defender) for young's defense is a total joke ?

 

better tell John Dewan so he can fix this problem

[rician blast]

It's a blog. Anybody can write whatever they want no matter how wrong they may be. Using that as a credible source to back up your misinformed judgments on Young is laughable. I suppose I could start my own blog and write about how Ortiz is terrible and washed up with a few stats to prove it.

 

 

Terrible and washed up? Not really.

 

On the downside of his career? My hunch is that it might be a possibility. Depending omn the health of the knee and wrist, I could see a rebound this year, i.e. .280, 30 Hrs, 100 RBIs, then I'd expect to see a tailing off.... 2010 = .275/25/90..... 2011= .265/21/85... etc. He's got that body type which seems not to hold up.

 

I certainly hope to be wrong, would love to see him hit 40 or so HRs.

[diony]

ok ...so the stats I pulled out ( that showed Young was in fact a good defender) for young's defense is a total joke ?

 

better tell John Dewan so he can fix this problem

 

You should have posted Dewan's Plus/Minus system for Defense for Young for the past 5 seaons. Don't cherry pick stats.

 

The plus/minus numbers represent the number of plays the player made above or below the number that the average shortstop would have made.

 

Here you go. From Dewan's Fielding Bible.

 

Plus/Minus System for Michael Young

 

2004: -34

2005: -39

2006:-10

2007: -15

2008: -7

 

From 2004-2008, Young's plus/minus numbers are -105. Only Jeter is worst with -118.

 

UZR puts Young as below average, the Plus/Minus system has him among the worst shortstops in the game for the last seasons.

 

Rob Neyer from ESPN.com (Yeah, he's biased against Michael Young too )

 

Young another bad Gold Glove choice

 

I'm afraid the voters don't have the same excuse at shortstop. Michael Young (this year's choice) and Derek Jeter are two of the worst everyday shortstops in recent history. And yet, Young and Jeter now have captured four of the past five AL Gold Gloves. Honestly, this is pretty mind-blowing (unless you've been paying attention to the Gold Glove results for the past few years, in which case, it should be pretty hard to blow your mind). From 2004 through 2007, Young was roughly the 30th-best shortstop in the majors. Over those four years, he was roughly 100 plays worse than the average major league shortstop. This season, he improved some and might have cost his team only 10 hits rather than 20 or 30.

 

Link

 

John Dewan also hates Michael Young

[Dipre]

You should have posted Dewan's Plus/Minus system for Defense for Young for the past 5 seaons. Don't cherry pick stats.

 

The plus/minus numbers represent the number of plays the player made above or below the number that the average shortstop would have made.

 

Here you go. From Dewan's Fielding Bible.

 

Plus/Minus System for Michael Young

 

2004: -34

2005: -39

2006:-10

2007: -15

2008: -7

 

From 2004-2008, Young's plus/minus numbers are -105. Only Jeter is worst with -118.

 

UZR puts Young as below average, the Plus/Minus system has him among the worst shortstops in the game for the last seasons.

 

Rob Neyer from ESPN.com (Yeah, he's biased against Michael Young too )

 

 

 

Link

 

John Dewan also hates Michael Young

 

I hate to agree with diony, but he's right.

 

I've seen a fair share of Texas games on MLB.TV (i like the offensive fireworks), and let me tell you something, from my own judgement, not even taking stats into account, Michael Young looks like what he is at SS: A 2nd baseman playing out of position.

[rician blast]

MLB TRade Rumors reports Young has taken back his trade request and agreed to play 3B.

After signing for $80m over 5 years back in 2007, I imagine he'll be one of the highest paid 3B in baseball...maybe #2 behind ARod?

[diony]

MLB TRade Rumors reports Young has taken back his trade request and agreed to play 3B.

After signing for $80m over 5 years back in 2007, I imagine he'll be one of the highest paid 3B in baseball...maybe #2 behind ARod?

 

Considering Miguel Cabrera got moved to 1B, then yes.

[BSN07]

Third basemen

The highest-paid active third basemen, by average annual value:

 

Alex Rodriguez, $27,500,000 (2008-17)

Miguel Cabrera, $19,037,500 (2008-15)

 

Aramis Ramirez, $15,000,000 (2007-11)

Adrian Beltre, $12,800,000 (2005-09)

 

Mike Lowell, $12,500,000 (2008-10)

Chipper Jones, $12,333,333 (2006-08)

Troy Glaus, $11,500,000 (2005-08)

Scott Rolen, $11,500,000 (2003-10)

Eric Chavez, $11,000,000 (2005-10)

David Wright, $9,166,667 (2007-12)