... and Smoltz is Not Far Behind

[BSN07]

When have I been a proponent of fiscal irresponsibility? Don't make up things to bolster your arguments. For which iffy veteran did I make this argument? Are you talking about Lowe? Do you call it iffy for a starting pitcher to take the ball 35 times a year and pitch more than 200 innings every year and win 10-15 games? i don't.

 

Until you have been a Red Sox fan living in NY for 40 years, traveled to see the Sox in Spring Training for 5 straight years, traveled to Baltimore, Florida, Philadelphia and Oakland to see the Sox play, and been a fan for more than 40 years, you shouldn't even suggest this in jest.

 

A700 I hope you didn't take any of that persoanly, it was all in good fun.

 

 

I say Lowe is an iffy pitcher because he is 35 and requires a 3+yr deal for an AAV higher then anyone on the team. I'd say that is a fiscally iffy move. It may be good for next season, but what about the following 2?

 

 

 

 

I haven't been a Sox fan for 40 yrs. I'm not old enough, but that doesn't make me any more or less of a fan then you. Reading your response only leads me to believe I struck a nerve of some sorts. I mean I'm one of the easiest going, un mailcious posters here at talksox. For you to think I was seriously attacking your fanhood to the point where you need to try and beliddle my own, speaks vloumes.

 

 

But I have seen the Sox in ST, Baltimore, NY, TB, Texas, Toronto, LA, and Seattle. Does that make you feel better about poking harmless fun at you?

[example1]

First of all, I would not limit myself to Lowe. Trades are still an option...no?

 

As for those draft picks that have been so productive, since 2002, 3 guys have established themselves as prominent players--Pedroia (2004), Papelbon (2003) and Lester (2002). I don't count Bucholz, Lowrie or even Ellsbury. Ellsbury is the most accomplished, but the jury is still out on whether he will be a big time CFer. Where are the other 350 players drafted since 2002? What have they accomplished? Three out of 350, 4 out of 350 if you count Ellsbury. There are better odds at the blackjack table.

 

The funny thing is that the Sox best draft by all accounts was 2005, when they got Ellsbury, Buchholz, Bowden and Lowrie. The players you listed were one from each year, and their contributions weren't minimal. All three are probable stars in this league.

 

The 05 draft hasn't started paying dividends yet, aside from Ellsbury's contribution of 'only' 6+ wins last year. In time it will. 3 out of 350, 4 out of 350 with Ellsbury. There's reason to believe that we will soon be able to count Masterson, Lowrie, Buchholz, Bowden and Anderson. Each of those players certainly will get a shot to contribute wins to the MLB club.

 

Compare their success in a relatively short period of focusing more on the draft to other teams in baseball. They have gotten a lot out of their farm system, and the percentages you list really don't matter. That's how the system works. No team gets even 10% of its drafted players into the bigs.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

The funny thing is that the Sox best draft by all accounts was 2005, when they got Ellsbury, Buchholz, Bowden and Lowrie. The players you listed were one from each year, and their contributions weren't minimal. All three are probable stars in this league.

 

The 05 draft hasn't started paying dividends yet, aside from Ellsbury's contribution of 'only' 6+ wins last year. In time it will. 3 out of 350, 4 out of 350 with Ellsbury. There's reason to believe that we will soon be able to count Masterson, Lowrie, Buchholz, Bowden and Anderson. Each of those players certainly will get a shot to contribute wins to the MLB club.

 

Compare their success in a relatively short period of focusing more on the draft to other teams in baseball. They have gotten a lot out of their farm system, and the percentages you list really don't matter. That's how the system works. No team gets even 10% of its drafted players into the bigs.

Said it better than me.

[BSN07]

The funny thing is that the Sox best draft by all accounts was 2005, when they got Ellsbury, Buchholz, Bowden and Lowrie. The players you listed were one from each year, and their contributions weren't minimal. All three are probable stars in this league.

 

The 05 draft hasn't started paying dividends yet, aside from Ellsbury's contribution of 'only' 6+ wins last year. In time it will. 3 out of 350, 4 out of 350 with Ellsbury. There's reason to believe that we will soon be able to count Masterson, Lowrie, Buchholz, Bowden and Anderson. Each of those players certainly will get a shot to contribute wins to the MLB club.

 

Compare their success in a relatively short period of focusing more on the draft to other teams in baseball. They have gotten a lot out of their farm system, and the percentages you list really don't matter. That's how the system works. No team gets even 10% of its drafted players into the bigs.

 

 

Weren't those players drafted by the picks recieved for Lowe and Pedro?

 

 

I wasn't here at that time, but I can only guess what a700's attitude was toward not bringing back those guys was...

[a700hitter]

Reading your response only leads me to believe I struck a nerve of some sorts. I mean I'm one of the easiest going, un mailcious posters here at talksox. For you to think I was seriously attacking your fanhood to the point where you need to try and beliddle my own, speaks vloumes.

 

 

But I have seen the Sox in ST, Baltimore, NY, TB, Texas, Toronto, LA, and Seattle. Does that make you feel better about poking harmless fun at you?

I was joking too, but suggesting that I become a Yankee fan would be like suggesting that an Israeli invite a Hamas member to dinner.

[BSN07]

I was only suggesting your want's would be better serviced if you where a Yankees fan:D

 

I am guilty of wanting the big time deals myself. But I realize sometimes the team is just better off not doing it. I mean look where it got the team with JD and Lugo. The Sox had an opening at SS and wanted to make a spalsh. The top SS at the time, Julio Lugo. Looking back, would it have not been better to get someone else one one year deal? Then look in on the position the following offseason? Hindsight it 20/20 of course.

Then theres JD. Let it be known I am a JD fan and have been a supporter from the time the ink was dry. But I can also admit he isnot without his issues. When JD is on, he is an elite hitter. But when he is off, he is painful to watch. But the Sox needed a RF, and he was the top one available. And they made a big splash. Far and away making a larger offer then anyone else. Looking back would you not have liked the team to pinch the purse so to speak a little more? And not overbid yourself by going feet first? I mean, what if they went with the cheaper, lesser name like Aubrey Huff? The would have gotten better production, and would be looking for a RF now in an overly crowded COF market. Probably saving the team even more money. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

I'm just saying, going with the shorter low risk/high rewards moves can pan out just as good or better then the expensive/ big expectations that follow such a contract.

 

I mean honestly? Can you imagine having expectations of Yankee fans? It's win or nothing. Actually you should be able to. And as Red Sox fans we ALL know what having win or nothing expectations is like. We all know it's no fun. I for one am not ready to go back to win or it's a bust. And let's be honest, thats what all those big money, big name players bring in.

 

 

 

I for one like the fact the Sox look for a bargain. Or the diamond in the rough so to speak. Or the fact they place values on players and hold to it.No matter the fallout(tex being about the worst case scenario). I mean we all liked it when we got Lowell at what the team valued him at and didn't go above it. We liked the fact the inked Pedroia at a reasonable price for long term. They can't be saavy buisness men one day, and bumbling baboon ass's the next.

[jacksonianmarch]

so wanting to sign a reliable starter in an offseason when 50 mil comes off the books is an outrageous want, fillable only by the richest (obviously not the second richest) team in baseball? Thats downright stupid

[Mr Crunchy]

How are ya MJ?

Has your painfull addiction to masturbating subsided since we turned you on to the group therapy?

Great additions in the bronx this offseason, lets hope they can climb out of 3rd place and win a round in the playoffs.

Evidently building from within was a fantasy for Cashman.

It must be difficult for Brian Cashman watching the little guy from the tiny town of Boston own your ass inspite of having half the payroll

[BSN07]

so wanting to sign a reliable starter in an offseason when 50 mil comes off the books is an outrageous want' date=' fillable only by the richest (obviously not the second richest) team in baseball? Thats downright stupid[/quote']

 

What's stupid is you assume how much the team spends effects my fanhood. I assure you it doesn't. Whether they spend 500M a season or league minimum, it doesn't really matter. I may want the team to spend here and not there, but at the end of the day, whoever is on the field I will cheer for.

 

If your affection for your team sways on how much they do or don't spend, I really feel sorry for you.

[jacksonianmarch]

the only painful addiction I have is work. I havent slept since about 5am yesterday. It really is kinda sweet. Falling asleep standing up is kickass.

[BSN07]

the only painful addiction I have is work. I havent slept since about 5am yesterday. It really is kinda sweet. Falling asleep standing up is kickass.

 

LOL hang in there:D

[jacksonianmarch]

What's stupid is you assume how much the team spends effects my fanhood. I assure you it doesn't. Whether they spend 500M a season or league minimum, it doesn't really matter. I may want the team to spend here and not there, but at the end of the day, whoever is on the field I will cheer for.

 

If your effection for your team sways on how much they do or don't spend, I really feel sorry for you.

 

I HAVE SAID NOTHING ABOUT YOUR FANHOOD! I am saying that you are defending the practice of signing rehabbing players coming off serious injuries when more reliable options are available. Take off the rosey glasses

[ORS]

so wanting to sign a reliable starter in an offseason when 50 mil comes off the books is an outrageous want' date=' fillable only by the richest (obviously not the second richest) team in baseball? Thats downright stupid[/quote']

You keep throwing this around like it's a hard number. Now, do the accounting and show it to me, because I think it's overstated by about 70%.

[Mr Crunchy]

You need to get a good coke habit going

[BoSox21]

Having 50 mil coming off the books (or whatever it is) still doesnt mean the freed up money should be spent on the top names in the FA pitching market cause the dollars are just stupid

[BSN07]

I HAVE SAID NOTHING ABOUT YOUR FANHOOD! I am saying that you are defending the practice of signing rehabbing players coming off serious injuries when more reliable options are available. Take off the rosey glasses

 

Well you called me stupid. So technically not about my fanhood, I give you that:D

 

I don't need to take off the shades either. It's not my money. Never has been, never likely will be. So when they decide to spend 70M on Drew, 102M on Dice-K I don't really care. It's their money. Whatever they decide to invest or not invest in, is their deal. I don't take it as a personal slap in the face if they don't spend every dime available. Of course I like to see them spend money, but if they don't I'm not going to stop watching.

 

I know that may be hard for you to understand. But it has nothing to do with my personal intelligence..

[Mr Crunchy]

I believe the fact that Ny threw money at sabby and burnett that nobody even came close to matching as well as signing tex to a 23M per deal is what theyre alluding to.

Our gamble on Penny is 1 year

NYs gamble on Burnett is 5yrs and hes never won 12 games

So who is taking the big chance here?

Smoltz is a gamer,he has lost some velocity and im not sure if he can start or close but wouldnt he be sweet meat coming on in the 7th or 8th?...

he was the best pitcher on that atlanta team and best make the hall of fame.

We are gambling there too but again,1 year.

[BSN07]

Pretty much if the Sox gambles blow up, there gone at the end of the season and the team can move on from there. They may be higher risk, but it's for a much shorter time period.

[BSN07]

I HAVE SAID NOTHING ABOUT YOUR FANHOOD! I am saying that you are defending the practice of signing rehabbing players coming off serious injuries when more reliable options are available. Take off the rosey glasses

 

Speaking of taking of the glasses or being upset. You should be mad your team didn't grab one of these guys. You should be mad your team spent 400M this off season, and still have enough worry about the #5 spot in the rotation, they invited Jason Johnson to ST to compete.. Why did they do that with more reliable options that where available?

[RedSoxRooter]

Haha. All my atlanta friends are either really pissed or really sad he's gone. I don't knock him for turning down the braves offer though. It was ridiculous - the only way he'd get his incentives is if he pitched 200 innings this year. Asking a 41 year old guy who's coming off of shoulder surgery to pitch that many innings to earn his pay is nuts.

 

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2009/01/08/smoltz_red_sox.html

[Cocos Disciples]

Haha. All my atlanta friends are either really pissed or really sad he's gone. I don't knock him for turning down the braves offer though. It was ridiculous - the only way he'd get his incentives is if he pitched 200 innings this year. Asking a 41 year old guy who's coming off of shoulder surgery to pitch that many innings to earn his pay is nuts.

 

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/stories/2009/01/08/smoltz_red_sox.html

 

Not to mention he won't pitch until May at the earliest. 200 is impossible.

[BoSox21]

Our gamble on Penny is 1 year

NYs gamble on Burnett is 5yrs and hes never won 12 games

So who is taking the big chance here?

 

Very good point actually

 

The fact that the young pitchers and prospects will have a guy like Smoltz around at ST really doesnt hurt either

[jacksonianmarch]

He won 18 games last yr

[BSN07]

Not to mention he won't pitch until May at the earliest. 200 is impossible.

 

Not much incentive in their incentive laden deal (insert lame drum sound here)

 

 

 

Seriously though, Atlanta shouldn't even have offered a deal. That would have been less insulting.

 

 

Does Smoltz cost a pick?

[BoSox21]

not that part, the fact that the Yankees are counting on Burnett to live up to his contract is just as much of a gamble as the Sox signing Penny and Smoltz.

 

but granted if Burnett is a huge flop, the Yanks will just turn on the money printing machine, sign someone else and bury Burnett at the back of the rotation or bullpen for the duration of the deal

[BSN07]

not that part' date=' the fact that the Yankees are counting on Burnett to live up to his contract is just as much of a gamble as the Sox signing Penny and Smoltz[/quote']

 

He's been pegged as a health risk for a reason. Living up to his contract will be difficult. Albeit not impossible.

[BoSox21]

Penny and Smoltz living up to their deals isnt impossible either

[BSN07]

Penny and Smoltz living up to their deals isnt impossible either

 

I think both can be good this season if healthy.

 

I was saying Penny on a short term incentive laden deal as soon as he hit the market back in December. If healthy I think he can bring a lot to the table. If not, then oh well, he's gone at the end of the season. Or if he proves to be healthy and capable and the Sox are in position to do so, they could trade him for something of value.

[diony]

Our gamble on Penny is 1 year

NYs gamble on Burnett is 5yrs and hes never won 12 games

 

Burnett went 221 IPs last year and Penny just 95.

 

Burnett has pitched 730.5 IPs since 2005, while Penny has only pitched 666.3 in the same time frame.

 

And he won 18 games last season.

 

There's a high injury risk in Burnett but he's not a gamble. Penny is just a flier.

[Dojji]

I'm not asking that much of Smoltz or Penny. If either of them earn us a single playoff win that easily justifies both salaries.

 

And we do have a chance, if Penny really has a great year, of getting some compensation for him and earning a 1s pick if he can become a Type B free agent. Not so much there on Smoltz, but then he's the one more likely to earn a playoff win of the two so there's that I guess.