... and Smoltz is Not Far Behind

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Exactly' date=' the Red Sox are not those teams and they have freed up a lot of payroll since last season, so they should not be signing injured, post-operative, and diseased players on the cheap in the hope that they will contribute. These acquisitions may pique your curiosity, but my view is that not of them will make significant contributions in 2009.[/quote']

What should they do? Overpay for a 35 year old average-at-best pitcher and toss away a draft pick that they know how to use, unlike many other teams in baseball ???

[a700hitter]

a700's glass is half empty' date=' can anyone top it off for him?[/quote']Yes, Theo can by getting a reliable starting pitcher (not necessarily Lowe), and/or an upgraded SS, and/or a starting catcher.

[BSN07]

Yes' date=' Theo can by getting a reliable starting pitcher (not necessarily Lowe), and/or an upgraded SS, and/or a starting catcher.[/quote']

 

That's reasonable.

 

But there are no worth Catchers outside of Tek to bring in. Which young prospect would you be willing to deal?

 

 

Outside of Lowe, who is there to sign that fits your criteria?

 

 

As well for SS too?

 

 

I'd love to see some upgrades in those positions. But it comes down to cost, either in guranteed $, or prospects.

[BSN07]

I've been crushed for saying it, but I think the Sox should have looked in on Hardy. It would be an offensive upgrade, and would allow Lowrie to be used as a super utility type. Where I think he would have more value. But agian it all comes down to cost.

[a700hitter]

What should they do? Overpay for a 35 year old average-at-best pitcher and toss away a draft pick that they know how to use' date=' unlike many other teams in baseball[/u'] ???

First of all, I would not limit myself to Lowe. Trades are still an option...no?

 

As for those draft picks that have been so productive, since 2002, 3 guys have established themselves as prominent players--Pedroia (2004), Papelbon (2003) and Lester (2002). I don't count Bucholz, Lowrie or even Ellsbury. Ellsbury is the most accomplished, but the jury is still out on whether he will be a big time CFer. Where are the other 350 players drafted since 2002? What have they accomplished? Three out of 350, 4 out of 350 if you count Ellsbury. There are better odds at the blackjack table.

[BSN07]

First of all, I would not limit myself to Lowe. Trades are still an option...no?

 

As for those draft picks that have been so productive, since 2002, 3 guys have established themselves as prominent players--Pedroia (2004), Papelbon (2003) and Lester (2002). I don't count Bucholz, Lowrie or even Ellsbury. Ellsbury is the most accomplished, but the jury is still out on whether he will be a big time CFer. Where are the other 350 players drafted since 2002? What have they accomplished? Three out of 350, 4 out of 350 if you count Ellsbury. There are better odds at the blackjack table.

 

I'm always open to a trade. But the only legit SP on the market is Peavy. And at what it will cost to get him, I'm not too sure.

 

 

Maybe they hould put a large package together for Webb and Montero?

 

Then Dice-K and Lowell+1 to NYM for Wright:thumbsup:

[a700hitter]

That's reasonable.

 

But there are no worth Catchers outside of Tek to bring in. Which young prospect would you be willing to deal?

There are some good catchers. How would either of us know what it would take to get one of them?

Outside of Lowe' date=' who is there to sign that fits your criteria?[/quote']The top 15 starters in either league.

 

As well for SS too?

Anyone better than Lugo/Lowrie

 

I'd love to see some upgrades in those positions. But it comes down to cost' date=' either in guranteed $, or prospects.[/quote']That's not my job. You asked me who could top off my glass. I told what would top off my glass. I am not asking for Pujols, Holliday (although the A's got him), Halladay, Santana (we could've gottn him last year). My wish list is by no means extravagant, and the Red Sox have the prospects and money to make it happen. I'd be happy with two of the three things on my list.

[BSN07]

Would you give in to the asking price of Buchholz or 2 of Bowden, Masterson, Hadagone for Salty/Teagarden?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

First of all' date=' I would not limit myself to Lowe. Trades are still an option...no?[/quote']

 

We need to trade for a catcher, and we'll probably have to overpay for that anyway. I'd rather not put too many dents into our farm system.

 

As for those draft picks that have been so productive, since 2002, 3 guys have established themselves as prominent players--Pedroia (2004), Papelbon (2003) and Lester (2002). I don't count Bucholz, Lowrie or even Ellsbury. Ellsbury is the most accomplished, but the jury is still out on whether he will be a big time CFer. Where are the other 350 players drafted since 2002? What have they accomplished? Three out of 350, 4 out of 350 if you count Ellsbury. There are better odds at the blackjack table.

 

 

Buchholz, Lowrie, and Ellsbury were all taken in 2005 (along with Bowden) and only recently have gotten their shots in the majors. 2006 we drafted Masterson and Daniel Bard in the first two rounds. One of those guys is already serving as a set up man in the majors, and the other is being touted as a future closer. Hagadone is in the pipeline right now, he could be a future lefty starter for the big club. You forgot they took David Murphy in 2003, who had 74 RBIs and 15 homers in 2/3 of the season last year (and an .806 OPS).

 

Pretty much all these guys I listed, as well the ones you listed, the Sox took with their first pick.

 

Now that we've established that with the first pick is where Theo does his damage, do you really want to throw it away for Derek Lowe or Ben Sheets?

 

350 is a bogus sample size for the discussion. Its the first round pick that we lose if we do this your way. Its those first round picks (or first picks overall) that have been so impressive. Forget about the late rounders.

[a700hitter]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

 

It's final. Happy Days!

[CrespoBlows]

Yes' date=' Theo can by getting a reliable starting pitcher (not necessarily Lowe), and/or an upgraded SS, and/or a starting catcher.[/quote']

 

 

Well played.

[BSN07]

a700, you seem to want the Sox to pay any amount of $ possible to bring in guys. Throw draft picks away on iffy veterans. Basically go against what the FO philosophy is currently.

 

To be honest, I think your cheering for the wrong team,

 

If it's big $, and flashy new players you want, NY is your team.

[jacksonianmarch]

So you'd rather tow the company line and be excited about the fact that your team decided to sign 2 rehab projects to fill our your rotation when other, more reliable options were available?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

What we signed = little to no risk

 

Your suggestion = minus a draft pick

[BSN07]

So you'd rather tow the company line and be excited about the fact that your team decided to sign 2 rehab projects to fill our your rotation when other' date=' more reliable options were available?[/quote']

 

Yup, I will still be cheering all season.

 

The players the Sox do or do not sign, doesn't dictate my fanhood one way or the other. If they trotted out 25 replacement players tomorrow, I would still tune in on my mlbtv account every game possible.

 

I am not mad that the teamed filled their #5 spot in the rotation with a low risk high reward type player.

 

Why make Lowe the highest paid player on the team, to be the #4/5 SP?

 

I actually like the fact the FO likes to try and find a deal, instead of overpaying for a big names now and then.

 

 

 

I try to be a consistant fan. Not one who disappears when the going gets rough, and shows back up after my team re-ups for the upcoming season.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love me some wheeling and dealing. But I won't be upset or take it as a slight against me as a fan if they don't.

[The Bloody Sox]

People seem to forget that we already have a pretty good team and only need to fill a few positions. Players like Smoltz, Baldelli, Penny, and Bard can improve our team and thus are decent signings.

 

With that said, I'd love to get someone like Peavy if at all possible or a great catcher, but we'll have to wait and see.

[jacksonianmarch]

Yup, I will still be cheering all season.

 

The players the Sox do or do not sign, doesn't dictate my fanhood one way or the other. If they trotted out 25 replacement players tomorrow, I would still tune in on my mlbtv account every game possible.

 

I am not mad that the teamed filled their #5 spot in the rotation with a low risk high reward type player.

 

Why make Lowe the highest paid player on the team, to be the #4/5 SP?

 

I actually like the fact the FO likes to try and find a deal, instead of overpaying for a big names now and then.

 

 

Don't get me wrong, I love me some wheeling and dealing. But I won't be upset or take it as a slight against me as a fan if they don't.

 

There is a difference between wanting something and then refusing to root for your team. I dont think anyone here aside from Gom would pull away from their fandom if a certain off season target wasnt entertained. But you must admit that relying on rehab projects to fill out a rotation spot is not ideal and with what was available this offseason, is kinda unacceptable considering the sox current financial advantage

[riverside sluggers]

Considering the Sox got by through most of the 07 season with Julian Tavarez as their 5th starter... Im not one to fret

 

This is really being blown out of proportion by Jacko and A700. Name how many teams have all star 4th/5th type starters

[a700hitter]

Buchholz' date=' Lowrie, and Ellsbury were all taken in 2005 (along with Bowden) and only recently have gotten their shots in the majors. 2006 we drafted Masterson and Daniel Bard in the first two rounds. One of those guys is already serving as a set up man in the majors, and the other is being touted as a future closer. Hagadone is in the pipeline right now, he could be a future lefty starter for the big club. You forgot they took David Murphy in 2003, who had 74 RBIs and 15 homers in 2/3 of the season last year (and an .806 OPS).[/quote']Admittedly, the Red Sox FO does a better job of scouting and drafting than most teams, but whether a draft choice will become a significant contributor to the Sox is a long shot.

 

Pretty much all these guys I listed, as well the ones you listed, the Sox took with their first pick.

 

Now that we've established that with the first pick is where Theo does his damage, do you really want to throw it away for Derek Lowe or Ben Sheets?

 

350 is a bogus sample size for the discussion. Its the first round pick that we lose if we do this your way. Its those first round picks (or first picks overall) that have been so impressive. Forget about the late rounders.

Of Bucholz, Lowrie, Ellsbury and Bowden, only Ellsbury has made any significant contribution. Am I supposed to give the FO credit for drafting unaccomplished players with potential? I'll opt to wait to see if they accomplish anything at the ML level before I praise the FO for drafting them. Also, I noticed that you left Craig Hansen off the 2005 list. He was picked ahead of all those guys except Bucholz who was a putrid 2-9 with a 6.75 ERA. Bard who will be 24 years old has still not pitched above AA. Jason Place who was the Red Sox first pick that year appears to be a bust. Pedroia was picked in the second round as was Lester. The Sox had no first round picks those years. Papelbon was picked in he 4th round. David Murphy is nothing to crow about. He was a first round pick that took 5 years to be an average outfielder on a lousy team. Hagadone? Didn't he just get TJ surgery?

[BSN07]

There is a difference between wanting something and then refusing to root for your team. I dont think anyone here aside from Gom would pull away from their fandom if a certain off season target wasnt entertained. But you must admit that relying on rehab projects to fill out a rotation spot is not ideal and with what was available this offseason' date=' [b']is kinda unacceptable considering the sox current financial advantage[/b]

 

 

I'm not admitting to that. They have a few rehab guys filling out their roster. Not making up the whole thing. These guys are not the core of the team. They will not be counted on everyday. And anything they add should be considered a bonus to what the everyday/core players provide. If the team was full of rehab projects, then yes I might be thinking otherwise.

 

 

 

Incase you haven't noticed, NO ONE besides the Yankess are spending big $. And in this economy, I have no issue with them tightning up some, and showing fiscal sense. What would you rather I'd want them to spend every dime they have, and bankrupt themselves? What good would that do me?

[BSN07]

Considering the Sox got by through most of the 07 season with Julian Tavarez as their 5th starter... Im not one to fret

 

This is really being blown out of proportion by Jacko and A700. Name how many teams have all star 4th/5th type starters

 

Yes it is. But should we expect anything else?

[riverside sluggers]

Bard who will be 24 years old has still not pitched above AA.

 

He will open the season in Triple A Patwucket, look for a mid to late season callup

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Admittedly' date=' the Red Sox FO does a better job of scouting and drafting than most teams, but whether a draft choice will become a significant contributor to the Sox is a long shot.[/quote']

 

With their track record, I'll gladly take my chances.

 

Of Bucholz, Lowrie, Ellsbury and Bowden, only Ellsbury has made any significant contribution. Am I supposed to give the FO credit for drafting unaccomplished players with potential? I'll opt to wait to see if they accomplish anything at the ML level before I praise the FO for drafting them.

 

How about taking into consideration that they've had two and a half seasons to jump through the three (at least) levels of the farm system. So you can't say they haven't come along fairly quickly. This may have actually been the issue with Buchholz last year, in retrospect. They rushed him.

 

Also, I noticed that you left Craig Hansen off the 2005 list. He was picked ahead of all those guys except Bucholz who was a putrid 2-9 with a 6.75 ERA. Bard who will be 24 years old has still not pitched above AA. Jason Place who was the Red Sox first pick that year appears to be a bust.

 

Busts happen. Place is a bump in the road.

 

Pedroia was picked in the second round as was Lester. The Sox had no first round picks those years.

 

Yes, which is why I noted 'or first pick overall', after 'first round picks'.

 

Papelbon was picked in he 4th round.

 

Are you trying to use that against me somehow??

 

David Murphy is nothing to crow about. He was a first round pick that took 5 years to be an average outfielder on a lousy team. Hagadone? Didn't he just get TJ surgery?

 

Murphy would have been in the 20/110 range last year if not for his injury. I don't know how you can discount Murphy on the Rangers, seeing as they have the league's best offense. Their s***** pitching is what constantly holds them back.

 

 

You're blaming the Sox for Hagadone getting injured? He put some decent numbers prior to the injury.

[a700hitter]

a700' date=' you seem to want the Sox to pay any amount of $ possible to bring in guys.[/quote']When have I been a proponent of fiscal irresponsibility? Don't make up things to bolster your arguments.

Throw draft picks away on iffy veterans. Basically go against what the FO philosophy is currently.

For which iffy veteran did I make this argument? Are you talking about Lowe? Do you call it iffy for a starting pitcher to take the ball 35 times a year and pitch more than 200 innings every year and win 10-15 games? i don't.

 

To be honest, I think your cheering for the wrong team,

 

If it's big $, and flashy new players you want, NY is your team.

Until you have been a Red Sox fan living in NY for 40 years, traveled to see the Sox in Spring Training for 5 straight years, traveled to Baltimore, Florida, Philadelphia and Oakland to see the Sox play, and been a fan for more than 40 years, you shouldn't even suggest this in jest.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Incase you haven't noticed' date=' NO ONE besides the Yankess are spending big $. And in this economy, I have no issue with them tightning up some, and showing fiscal sense.[/quote']

 

How dare they!! <_>

[a700hitter]

He will open the season in Triple A Patwucket' date=' look for a mid to late season callup[/quote']Maybe

[a700hitter]

Originally Posted by a700Hitter

Pedroia was picked in the second round as was Lester. The Sox had no first round picks those years.

Yes, which is why I noted 'or first pick overall', after 'first round picks'.

So they would have made better picks than Pedroia and Lester if they hadn't forfeited the first round picks for FA signings those years? My point is that there has been nothing magic about the first round as you have suggested. Our only three productive and successful draft picks since 2002 were picked in the second of fourth rounds, not the first.

[BoSox21]

But you must admit that relying on rehab projects to fill out a rotation spot is not ideal and with what was available this offseason' date=' is kinda unacceptable considering the sox current financial advantage[/quote']

 

Just because a team has a financial advantage doesn't mean they should foolishly blow their money by paying over $83 million to sign AJ Burnett. The FA pitching market is ridiculous and that includes the contract to Sabathia as well

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

So they would have made better picks than Pedroia and Lester if they hadn't forfeited the first round picks for FA signings those years? My point is that there has been nothing magic about the first round as you have suggested. Our only three productive and successful draft picks since 2002 were picked in the second of fourth rounds' date=' not the first.[/quote']

Murphy, Ellsbury, and Bard are first rounders. Murphy's an established player batting in the middle of the league's best offense. I think Ellsbury win contributions have been discussed somewhere already. Bard, I mentioned, is a potential post-Papelbon (should he leave through FA) closer and will likely see some major league action this season.

[rician blast]

Yes' date=' Theo can by getting a reliable starting pitcher (not necessarily Lowe), and/or an upgraded SS, and/or a starting catcher.[/quote']

 

Gotta agree with this.