Dunn Versus Ibanez (Please tell me I haven't lost my mind)

[Keeper]

I'll begin by saying that I respect the opinions of a lot of members here, so if a majority of you think I'm wrong so be it.

 

On a Cubs forum, someone said Adam Dunn is "clearly" a better offensive player than Raul Ibanez. Remember that word: clearly. He kept on repeating it.

 

I said, "That's a contentious claim. In the last 3 seasons, Ibanez has 40 more RBIs than Dunn, 37 more doubles, 11 more triples, 73 more total bases, and has batted .47 points higher. On the flip side, Dunn has scored 11 more runs than Ibanez, has 43 more HRs, has 14 more stolen bases, his OBP is .25 points higher, and his SLG is .27 points higher."

 

The person then said he didn't think I realized how bad Ibanez is defensively.

 

Adam Dunn's career FP: .974

Raul Ibanez's career FP: .987

 

I admitted that FP is a debatable stat because of scorekeepers. Additionally, in the last 3 seasons their range factor is about the same, and Ibanez has 19 more assists from the outfield.

 

I posted that and was then told that range factor and assists are "garbage" stats. But no reason was given.

 

I was then told that productivity doesn't mean anything, and RBIs is one of the most useless stats around. Because "it's out of your control." I don't know about you, but to me that's the biggest load of BS I've ever heard. The Cubs posters placed a high premium on OBP (and rightfully so), but evidently scoring runs is also out of your control, even when you get on base a lot?

 

I said sarcastically that hitting with RISP must also be useless.

 

I could go, but I think you get the picture. My question is: Is Dunn "clearly" the better offensive player than Ibanez? Was I in the wrong here to expect a retraction?

[Gom]

Value Over Replacement Player:

 

2008

Dunn: 26.3 VORP

Ibanez: 38.6 VORP

 

2007:

Dunn: 45.6 VORP

Ibanez: 30.5 VORP

 

2006:

Dunn: 23.8 VORP

Ibanez: 37.3 VORP

 

From this information, not only is Ibanez the better player, he is much more consistent. Factor in the fact that Ibanez played in Seattle and in the American League, and that Dunn played in the launching pad in Cincy and in the inferior National League, and Raul Ibanez is "clearly" the better offensive player.

 

WHAT NOW BITCHES?

[Keeper]

Hahaha. Thank you. I needed that.

[jacksonianmarch]

These stats dont tell the whole story though. Dunn is clearly the better offensive player. If you take OBP and SLG over the last 5 yrs, it isnt even close. Dunn sits in the .380 range in terms of OBP and Ibanez sits in the .350 range. Dunn sits in the .530 range in terms of SLG, Ibanez sits in the .470 range. If you take into account that Ibanez isnt a great OFer and that he's 7 yrs older than Dunn,then I dont see how one could make an argument that Dunn isnt significantly more valuable than Ibanez.

[Cocos Disciples]

Your Cubs forumers are correct about the fielding; Ibanez is terrible. Maybe not as bad as Dunn, but terrible. And F% is not a very good stat to use since it only shows the balls the fielder got to.