Sox search for bat

[Dojji]

we need to get rid of dice-k sooner rather than later

 

16 wins not enough for you?

[Dipre]

His post is vague, but has an interesting overall theme.

 

If the Sox could move Dice-K for an impact everyday player. I think it should be considered.

 

Why?

[Dojji]

Because pitchers that aren't quite 100% perfect are officially bad and must therefore be removed from the rotation, of course.

[Cocos Disciples]

If by "impact everyday player" he means "stud everyday player", then I agree. But you would be hard pressed to find a fair deal for a young, top half of the rotation starter who has 4 years on his contract at 9MM AAV.

[example1]

What would have constituted "the extra mile?" By all accounts I've read, the Red Sox were told by Boras that there was a $200m offer on the table. So they shoulda believed him and bid $201m, or $21m higher than the Yanks signed him for? It appears that it was that disclosure by Boras that lead Henry to say the Sox would not be a factor.

 

Also, weren't the Yankees given the last chance to bid? Boras/Tex didn't get the $180m offer, as far as I've heard, from the Yanks then come back and see if the Sox would beat it. All indications were that Tex preferred to be in pinstripes, but might have become a Sox player had the bought into the possibly fictitious $200m offer.

 

So quit trying to make it seem like the Sox lost out because of an unwillingness to pay a mere $2m more per year and understand that it is quite possible that the Sox pulled out because of disingenuous negotiations and the fact that Tex preferred to go to NY.

 

Spot on Rician. That is my feeling about how it played out as well.

[a700hitter]

Spot on Rician. That is my feeling about how it played out as well.

So, the FO achieved their #1 off season objective?

[BSN07]

If by "impact everyday player" he means "stud everyday player"' date=' then I agree. But you would be hard pressed to find a fair deal for a young, top half of the rotation starter who has 4 years on his contract at 9MM AAV.[/quote']

 

Yes I mean stud player. Maybe David Wright? There contracts are close to each other. Sox need an impact bat, have no 3B prospects to block.

 

NYM need an ML pitcher to go with Johan.

[BSN07]

Because pitchers that aren't quite 100% perfect are officially bad and must therefore be removed from the rotation' date=' of course.[/quote']

 

No I just try not to over value players with emotion.

 

 

Yes Dice-K is good. Yes he is signed for a reasonable deal. I value what he brings to the team. And will have no problems with him in the rotation. But to me, he is a 6IP who walks alot of guys and throws a ton of pitches. But if he could bring back David Wright or someone of that magnitude, you have to consider it.

[example1]

So' date=' the FO achieved their #1 off season objective?[/quote']

 

If their objective was "don't get fleeced by Boras into paying 20m more than Teixeira is worth" then yes. My guess is that if you presented them with two options:

 

1) Get Mark Teixeira at ANY cost

or

2) Stick to your guiding principles

 

they would pick #2 every time.

 

 

You say #1 off season objective as if that is the same as #1 guiding principle, which we both know just isn't the case.

 

Would you have signed Teixeira at "any cost"? Do you think their #1 offseason objective was "sign Mark Teixeira at any cost?" I don't.

[rician blast]

So' date=' the FO achieved their #1 off season objective?[/quote']

 

If I knew nothing else but your expressed opinions on this specific topic I'd guess that you were likely a Yankee fan or at the very least a "nouveaux" Sox fan...those seem to be the two camps most likely to support acquiring a player at any and all costs.

 

I'm not sure if you're playing devil's advocate or if you truly think that the Sox should have caved to Boras and paid $200+m a year. You're certainly welcome to your opinion, but I think it's time you understood that the Red Sox FO does not do business that way. I believe you'll be in for years of frustration if you're banking on the Sox taking that approach.

 

I will say this...I wish you were the guy signing my paycheck, because while I'm very good at my job there is this little issue of a budget in our Company...but with you as my boss the sky would be the limit.

[a700hitter]

If their objective was "don't get fleeced by Boras into paying 20m more than Teixeira is worth" then yes.

Their objective was to sign Teixeira

My guess is that if you presented them with two options:

 

1) Get Mark Teixeira at ANY cost

or

2) Stick to your guiding principles

 

they would pick #2 every time.

I didn't present them with any options.

 

You say #1 off season objective as if that is the same as #1 guiding principle, which we both know just isn't the case.

 

Would you have signed Teixeira at "any cost"? Do you think their #1 offseason objective was "sign Mark Teixeira at any cost?" I don't.

I just asked if the price was too high meant the FO achieved their #1 off season objective. If the price was too high and they had no chance of signing him, that doesn't absolve them from blame. They should have done a better job of assessing the market for Teixeira and the possibility of signing him. If he couldn't be signed, they should have gone in a different direction. They either failed in negotiating a deal with Teixeira or they failed in evaluating the market for his services. Either way the FO failed. Setting an unattainable objective is a failure. I never said in any of my posts that they should have signed Teixeira at all costs. You are putting words in my mouth. Several posters are willing to give the FO a pass on this transaction, because they feel that Teixeira was too expensive. I am holding them accountable for either having a bad plan or bad execution.

[example1]

If the price was too high and they had no chance of signing him' date=' that doesn't absolve them from blame. They should have done a better job of assessing the market for Teixeira and the possibility of signing him. [/quote']

 

Ohhh, I see. The media got you all hot and bothered about Teixeira and when the Sox didn't get him you were very disappointed indeed. Where did the Sox say that Teixeira was their #1 priority? I bet if Theo was asked what his #1 priority was he wouldn't have said "signing Mark Teixeira" because that's just not how they operate. That was your #1 priority for them, and the goal that you believe they set for themselves above all others, but does that make it their #1 goal? I don't think so. In fact, given how little you have to do with the millions and millions (and millions) of dollars he would have cost, I bet it is pretty easy for you to criticize them not spending an extra $20m to land the guy.

 

If he couldn't be signed, they should have gone in a different direction.

 

We're all anxious to see what 'different direction' you were thinking they should have gone between December 12th and December 19th (or whenever it was). Please don't tell me AJ Burnett, because they wouldn't have paid him what the Yankees did anyway.

 

They either failed in negotiating a deal with Teixeira or they failed in evaluating the market for his services.

 

Or you failed by expecting it would happen, even if they ended up in a bidding war, and even after Henry said they were out of it. Maybe next time they should just not express their interest in a player so that when they don't get him they won't be called failures.

 

I suppose they failed in their attempt to land Hanley Ramirez too. Shucks.

 

Setting an unattainable objective is a failure.

 

So you don't believe the negotiation process actually exists? You think that when teams go out to 'negotiate' they are basically talking about things that every other player in negotiations already knows. The Nationals, Orioles, and Angels all KNEW what his parameters were before hand, and, knowing full-well that they were not going to meet his standards, they decided to bid anyway? ********. The whole point of 'talking' to players and agents is to discuss parameters of deals in terms of money and length.

 

It sounds like Boras held out the mythical 200/10 team, the Sox said "we're not interested if that is the case" and Boras went with a lesser offer that didn't exist at the time the Sox were talking with him. Boras didn't come back to the Sox with the Yankees offer, Teixeira took it. It also sounds like there wasn't a clear indication that Teixeira wanted to play for the Yankees until after he accepted their deal.

 

It is comical, you simultaneously blame the Sox FO for not knowing something that was private between Boras and Teix and his wife apparently (his desire to be a Yankee), while also talking about how impressed you are with Teixeira and his negotiating style and his 'businesslike' approach.

 

"He's great at holding his cards to his chest. The Red Sox should have known what cards he was holding. Anyone who doesn't know his deepest desires is a failure."

 

:harhar:

 

I never said in any of my posts that they should have signed Teixeira at all costs.

 

A few of us have read that into your comments, so you may want to clarify.

 

 

You are putting words in my mouth.

 

I'm drawing the logical conclusion from your insanely myopic argument. You say "they had interest in a player, they didn't get him, therefore, they failed to negotiate correctly OR they misread the market".

 

I say "they had time to do a thorough investigation of the player because they have a good, young, largely complete team. They did that and determined that his asking price, or the willingness of other teams to spend on him, was too high for their liking. He was an investment opportunity that they looked into and ultimately decided against. They walked away a week before he ended up signing with another team."

 

 

There, simple as that. They didn't 'waste valuable time' they looked, and they left. How much time do you feel like they spent on him? Days on end, looking over every statistic in his book, imagining how he would look in a Sox uniform, picking his locker, and his number, finding him an apartment and a new dog. Buying him a car and making sure that they developed new "Teixeira Pops" to be sold in the stands of Fenway? ******** a700. The ownership group flew to Texas to talk to Boras and told us when it didn't work out.

 

Do you not think they are capable of doing more than one thing at a time?

 

Several posters are willing to give the FO a pass on this transaction, because they feel that Teixeira was too expensive.

 

You're missing the word 'ultimately'. It should say:

 

Several posters are willing to give the FO a pass on this transaction, because they feel that Teixeira was ultimatelytoo expensive. He isn't an item at Wal-Mart, he's a major league baseball player whose value is determined through a complicated series of negotiations and by the willingness of other teams to bid on him.

 

You expect this management group to be able to go to an auction and name the price of every object before the bidding begins.

 

I am holding them accountable for either having a bad plan or bad execution.

 

 

By the way, who ended up buying your spring training tickets from you? I'm sure as part of your 'holding them accountable' you are boycotting their spring training, right? How, exactly, are you holding them accountable?

[a700hitter]

Ohhh' date=' I see. The media got you all hot and bothered about Teixeira and when the Sox didn't get him you were very disappointed indeed. Where did the Sox say that Teixeira was their #1 priority? I bet if Theo was asked what his #1 priority was he wouldn't have said "signing Mark Teixeira" because that's just not how they operate. That was [i']your[/i] #1 priority for them, and the goal that you believe they set for themselves above all others, but does that make it their #1 goal? I don't think so.

I am on record that I thought their first priority should have been to improve the starting pitching. The actions of the FO demonstrated that Teixeira was the #1 priority. When I went to Fenway Park for Christmas at Fenway, Red Sox officials who were there did talk about how much they would like to get Teixeira. No one said that he was the #1 priority, but I think you are ignoring the facts and rewriting history if you are trying to say that Teixeira wasn't the FO's first priority.

In fact' date=' given how little you have to do with the millions and millions (and millions) of dollars he would have cost, I bet it is pretty easy for you to criticize them not spending an extra $20m to land the guy.[/quote']I have not stated any such thing. Stop engaging in internet mind-reading.

 

Or you failed by expecting it would happen, even if they ended up in a bidding war, and even after Henry said they were out of it. Maybe next time they should just not express their interest in a player so that when they don't get him they won't be called failures.

 

I suppose they failed in their attempt to land Hanley Ramirez too. Shucks.

You do realize that this is nonsensical babble...don't you?

I'm drawing the logical conclusion from your insanely myopic argument. You say "they had interest in a player' date=' they didn't get him, therefore, they failed to negotiate correctly OR they misread the market".[/quote']Yes, they set an objective-- to sign Teixeira. They didn't sign him. There could only be two reasons--1. the botched the negotiations and could have had him at a reasonable price, or 2. they misread that the market and the price was too high. Whether Boras played his cards close to the vest or not, or whether Tex kept it a secret that he wanted to play for the Yankees or whatever else, in the end, the deal didn't get done for one of the two reasons that I set forth.

 

By the way' date=' who ended up buying your spring training tickets from you? I'm sure as part of your 'holding them accountable' you are boycotting their spring training, right? How, exactly, are you holding them accountable?[/quote']By saying that in my opinion they are accountable. Fans judge players based on their play. We judge managers based on their performance. We evaluate trades. If they make a bad trade, we criticize. In this case, I am criticizing them for setting an objective that they did not achieve. I don't know the reasons for this, nor do you. Boras, Tex, and the Red Sox FO probably all have different stories. One story is no more accurate than another. The posters defending the FO have even less reliable information regarding the reasons for the non-signing. All we know for sure is that they wanted him badly and didn't get him.

[BSN07]

a700, give up, example just shot holes all through you argument.

 

And the only person who doesn't get his reasoning is you.

 

Why is it so hard to believe the Sox set a price for Tex, just like they do with everyone else, and when it exceeded that set price, they where no longer going to sign Tex?

 

 

And do you really believe that the Yanks where not going to top any offer the Sox gave? Yes the Sox could have gone to 180, but what was to keep the Yankees from going 190? And so on and so forth....

 

 

I agree with the Yankees not in the negotiations the Sox where the favorite. But as soon as they entered, it was a lost cause. And if you can't see that, then your very nieve.

 

 

But I guess the Sox could have gone to 300M and really shown those Yanks they where serious and would not be thwarted in there #1 priority! That would have taught them!

 

 

a700 i've got not problems with you, and enjoy your different views. But you are so far off on this one. I agree with Ex, you really got caught up in the media hype(so did I for a period) that Tex was bound to end up in Boston. And then it got taken away from you, and by the Yanks of all teams. Now your bitter and want to see someone pay for the so called mishandling of the negotiations. But really it's just the Sox FO sticking to what they have done since they took over the team. And that has brought great success to the team. So I say let them do there thing.

[a700hitter]

a700 i've got not problems with you' date=' and enjoy your different views. But you are so far off on this one. I agree with Ex, you really got caught up in the media hype(so did I for a period) that Tex was bound to end up in Boston. And then it got taken away from you, and by the Yanks of all teams. Now your bitter and want to see someone pay for the so called mishandling of the negotiations. But really it's just the Sox FO sticking to what they have done since they took over the team. And that has brought great success to the team. So I say let them do there thing.[/quote']I realize that the FO is very capable and it has had a good track record. I'll give them credit when credit is due. They have also taken accountability when they have botched things such as in 2006. In this case, they set an objective that they did not achieve. I am not saying that there was not good reason for the way it went down. I have not suggested that they should have paid any price. They set the objective. They didn't achieve it. They have responsibility. I just don't like all the speculating as to the reasons why. We don't know why. None of us do. They may have bungled it, or they may have made a wise choice, but they own the outcome and they didn't achieve their objective. Their Plan B... well I think their inactivity shows that they didn't have any Plan B at all. I find fault with that as well. What is with this lack of personal responsibility theme? The FO got skunked by the Skanks FO. It's actually quite obvious.

[ORS]

And do you really believe that the Yanks where not going to top any offer the Sox gave? Yes the Sox could have gone to 180, but what was to keep the Yankees from going 190? And so on and so forth....

 

 

I agree with the Yankees not in the negotiations the Sox where the favorite. But as soon as they entered, it was a lost cause. And if you can't see that, then your very nieve.

 

 

But I guess the Sox could have gone to 300M and really shown those Yanks they where serious and would not be thwarted in there #1 priority! That would have taught them!

This doesn't agree with what was reported after the Sox meeting. According to that report, the Sox came in with their offer, were told it was short of expectations, but were given an opportunity to leave the meeting with an agreement of $184M/8. Henry called "BS" and left the meeting, made his statement about the Sox being "out of it", a move at the time lauded by everyone as "calling Boras' bluff", and everyone was confident over the next couple of days that the Sox offer was the highest.

 

Well, it didn't work out that way. Turns out the Yankees weren't really in the game yet. Where Henry & Co. failed is that, according to the initial meeting report, they let the Yankees back into the game. If that report is credible, which I have no idea whether or not it is, they could have left the meeting with an agreement in place. It turns out that agreement value is only $1M more per year than what the Yankee offer that won his services is for.

 

I agree, if given a chance to counter the Yankee offer, had they gone over it, the Yankees likely come back higher yet again. Many of those who say the Sox had no real chance reference this as the centerpoint of their argument absolving the FO from blame. It's just wrong, IMO. Those who say, "...for a few dollars more....", are right, if you look at it in the context of coming to an agreement before the Yankees were a factor.

[rician blast]

This doesn't agree with what was reported after the Sox meeting. According to that report' date=' the Sox came in with their offer, were told it was short of expectations, but were given an opportunity to leave the meeting with an agreement of $184M/8. [/quote']

 

I had missed this, anyone have a link? If true it to some extent diminishes the impact of the "I have a $200M OFFER" issue, which I believed was part of the Sox backing away.

[a700hitter]

I had missed this' date=' anyone have a link? If true it to some extent diminishes the impact of the "I have a $200M OFFER" issue, which I believed was part of the Sox backing away.[/quote']As I have been saying, there a plenty of stories and reasons floating around. I choose to put little if any stock in any of these stories as I believe that they are spin, conjecture, damage control, etc. The only thing we know for sure is the the FO wanted him and the price was either too high or they bungled the process. Either way, they didn't achieve their objective. Is there a valid explanation? Maybe. Are we supposed to say, "nice try." Maybe as I watch the games I should say "nice swing" when one of our batters leaves a runner on 3B with less than two outs. I don't think any of us say that, so why should we struggle for excuses for the FO when they swing and miss? They swung and missed that's all that any of us know. If Tex hit 40 and drives in 130 and/or leads the Yanks to #27, we will have our answer regarding whether they made the right decision.

[jacksonianmarch]

This doesn't agree with what was reported after the Sox meeting. According to that report, the Sox came in with their offer, were told it was short of expectations, but were given an opportunity to leave the meeting with an agreement of $184M/8. Henry called "BS" and left the meeting, made his statement about the Sox being "out of it", a move at the time lauded by everyone as "calling Boras' bluff", and everyone was confident over the next couple of days that the Sox offer was the highest.

 

Well, it didn't work out that way. Turns out the Yankees weren't really in the game yet. Where Henry & Co. failed is that, according to the initial meeting report, they let the Yankees back into the game. If that report is credible, which I have no idea whether or not it is, they could have left the meeting with an agreement in place. It turns out that agreement value is only $1M more per year than what the Yankee offer that won his services is for.

 

I agree, if given a chance to counter the Yankee offer, had they gone over it, the Yankees likely come back higher yet again. Many of those who say the Sox had no real chance reference this as the centerpoint of their argument absolving the FO from blame. It's just wrong, IMO. Those who say, "...for a few dollars more....", are right, if you look at it in the context of coming to an agreement before the Yankees were a factor.

 

Spot on ORS. They had their shot at Tex. They were given hard parameters and a hard number and they chose to walk away. That number was 4 mil over what the yankees eventually paid for him, and a total of 1.5 million more per yr than their final offer. Those who try to perform post analysis revisionism are off base. 1.5 mil per, less than what Cora made.

[ORS]

I had missed this' date=' anyone have a link? If true it to some extent diminishes the impact of the "I have a $200M OFFER" issue, which I believed was part of the Sox backing away.[/quote']

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3782228

This is the link I posted when the story first broke. Again, I don't know how credible the report is as far as the numbers go. It does suggest that they could have come to terms on an agreement during this meeting, and failing to do so opened the door to have the Yankees reenter the negotiations. Once that happened, their chances of landing Teixeira essentially disappeared.

[redsoxrules]

its plain and simple the Sox FO FAILED in their attempt to get Tex

[rician blast]

This is the link I posted when the story first broke. Again' date=' I don't know how credible the report is as far as the numbers go. It does suggest that they could have come to terms on an agreement during this meeting, and failing to do so opened the door to have the Yankees reenter the negotiations. Once that happened, their chances of landing Teixeira essentially disappeared.[/quote']

 

 

From the article:

 

"But after they arrived, they were informed that their offer to Teixeira -- something in the range of $165 million to $170 million -- was short by upwards of $25 million."

 

Boras counters:

"Boras, in an interview with ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick, said the report of a $195 million contract demand over eight years is "inaccurate.'' He declined to elaborate over specifics of the negotiations."

 

I see no way of telling, in this article or any other, exactly how much information the Red Sox had in terms of an offer that might have been accepted. I seem to recall reading articles stating that the Sox FO, and the media, were told, indirectly or otherwise, that someone had made a $200m offer.

 

Knowing that the Red Sox do not operate with a blank checkbook, and not knowing what L/T plans they have, how much of a return their 17 investors might be looking for, how they interpret the global financial crisis' impact on the organization currently and going forward, how they view their chances to win even if they did load up on free agents, etc. I honestly can't get too crazy about the whole thing. I think the FO did what it felt it needed to do based upon a plethora of variables it must consider, some of which I've mentioned above.

[Cocos Disciples]

After skimming through this thread, I'm surprised I missed this one:

The only two "boatload" deals we've seen recently have both involved the Orioles, and one was basically Adam Jones and 5 flavors of fail for Erik Bedard

 

Lol at Chris Tillman being a "flavor of fail". He's a Top 25 prospect, and may be regarded higher than Lars.

[BSN07]

After skimming through this thread, I'm surprised I missed this one:

 

 

Lol at Chris Tillman being a "flavor of fail". He's a Top 25 prospect, and may be regarded higher than Lars.

 

Dojji is like adam on heavy doses of riddilin. I mean that in the funniest way possible:lol:

[BSN07]

•Rosenthal suggests the Brewers trade Prince Fielder for "premium pitching" and then sign Adam Dunn to replace him. Which begs the question, why wouldn't the team giving up this premium pitching just sign Dunn instead?

•Despite signing John Smoltz, the Red Sox still are not willing to trade Clay Buchholz for Jarrod Saltalamacchia. The Sox may be willing to move Michael Bowden or especially Daniel Bard for Salty.

 

Rosenthaul is an idiot sometimes, Fielder is the better player compared to Dunn. Younger, better fielder ect.

 

Anyone like the idea of moving prospects for Fielder? I mentioned it earlier this offseason, but most didn't think the Brew Crew would trade him.

 

If the Sox can get Salty for Bard or Bowden, they should pull the trigger.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Depends on what propsects we're talking about (for Fielder).

[BSN07]

Well Buchholz will most likely be need in any deal.

 

Buchholz/Carter/+2 would be a decent start.

[Dojji]

Well Buchholz will most likely be need in any deal.

 

Buchholz/Carter/+2 would be a decent start.

 

If by start you mean "start to talk and hear the phone click."

 

Even though I'm of the opinion that you can make a deal for anyone at any time, Prince Fielder is still a couple years from FA and is an elite run producer and face of the franchise, and the Brewers consider themselves in contention on the grounds that they made the playoffs last year. Each of these facts raises the price and I'm thinking there's no way the Brewers answer any question about Fielder with any words other than "Not for any price." And

 

Fielder would be the ultimate buy high move and once again, we already have a very solid 1B and a promising 1B prospecty so it's the last position I'd make a big ticket trade for. If we're going to buy big on the trade market, why not swap Buchholz + for Zack Greinke and actually upgrade a position of need? Or make a deal for Edwin Encarnacion?

[BoSox21]

I really look forward to the Brewers' attempt to put together a rotation for this season

[Dojji]

Fielder might become available in midseason if the Brewers' attempts to hammer together a pitching staff fail particularly miserably, but I really doubt he'll be available until the Brewers have had a chance to try and fail their efforts to try to patch together some kind of frankenpitchers to fill that unholy staff of theirs