With AJ and CC in NYC now does that make them the fav. in the east?

[TheKilo]

Like I highlighted in my post, it isn't so much the aggregate bad stats. It's the consistent difficulty with command. He's had one start where he didn't walk the park, and he gave up 10 hits in 6 IP. That was game 5 last year, and instead of missing off the plate, I remember him missing over the plate and getting hit hard.

 

Sure, it's a small sample, but there is one consistent component there, not throwing quality strikes. For a guy who has shown an ability to do that when the pressure is a bit lower, the first logical assumption is a psychological factor.

 

That's actually a solid argument, much better than "he doesn't get it done in the postseason."

 

I'm curious, ORS, do you think Sabathia is an ace-caliber pitcher?

[Dipre]

Like I highlighted in my post, it isn't so much the aggregate bad stats. It's the consistent difficulty with command. He's had one start where he didn't walk the park, and he gave up 10 hits in 6 IP. That was game 5 last year, and instead of missing off the plate, I remember him missing over the plate and getting hit hard.

 

Sure, it's a small sample, but there is one consistent component there, not throwing quality strikes. For a guy who has shown an ability to do that when the pressure is a bit lower, the first logical assumption is a psychological factor.

 

With a notable exception being the clinching game for the Brewers, it wasn't October, but it was their most important game of the year to that point.

[diony]

Ace

 

http://images.sportsnetwork.com/mlb/getty/stlouis/2006/weaver_jeff8_265.jpg

 

2006 Postseason: 29.2 IP, 25 H, 8 ER, 9 BB, 19K, 2.47 ERA

 

Right.

[Dojji]

But the most important thing is knowing how to pitch with a lead, right?

 

Dang straight. Holding the lead is how you win..

 

What, were you trying to ridicule me? Try to use a point I made that actually doesn't make sense. THere should be enough of them.

[TheKilo]

The job of a pitcher is to not give up runs.

 

(Can't believe this is starting up again)

[ORS]

That's actually a solid argument, much better than "he doesn't get it done in the postseason."

 

I'm curious, ORS, do you think Sabathia is an ace-caliber pitcher?

What's the standard? Don't mean to be obfuscating my answer, but as this argument has shown, everyone tends to have their own interpretation. Using mine, I think he falls just short, but mine is tough. I'd say there are only a handful in the whole league. Santana, Halladay, Webb, maybe Oswalt before last year, with Lincecum and Hamels a year or two away (ie do it again) from joining the group.

[Cocos Disciples]

That's a good point. It really comes down to semantics on what an ace is. You could argue that every team has one ace, their best pitcher. You could also argue that some teams have two and some teams have none, and there is some specific definition.

[TheKilo]

What's the standard? Don't mean to be obfuscating my answer' date=' but as this argument has shown, everyone tends to have their own interpretation. Using mine, I think he falls just short, but mine is tough. I'd say there are only a handful in the whole league. Santana, Halladay, Webb, maybe Oswalt before last year, with Lincecum and Hamels a year or two away (ie do it again) from joining the group.[/quote']

 

I completely understand that the definition of an ace is extremely objective.

 

I ask you this - if Sabatha "just falls short", where does Beckett lie?

[ORS]

Did he make my small list?

[Dojji]

The job of a pitcher is to not give up runs.

 

(Can't believe this is starting up again)

 

Hey, who started it? If you want to tilt at windmills, don't be surprised if they throw you off your horse, Don Quixote.

[Dojji]

I completely understand that the definition of an ace is extremely objective.

 

I ask you this - if Sabatha "just falls short", where does Beckett lie?

 

Beckett is fantastic when on, but he's so inconsistent from year to year that it's hard to call him a true ace. This isn't the first year where his performance is stunted to a great extent by a few bad games and a handful of injuries. You have to factor it ALL in.

 

2004 Schilling is still the last year we had a True Ace on our staff. Daisuke if he didn't walk the known universe, Beckett if he could ever put two healthy years together, but since they have these struggles, no to both of them.

[TheKilo]

Beckett is fantastic when on' date=' but he's so inconsistent from year to year that it's hard to call him a true ace. This isn't the first year where his performance is stunted to a great extent by a few bad games and a handful of injuries.[/quote']

 

I agree.

 

My point is this - you cannot call Beckett an ace and then in the same breath say Sabathia is not, when he has been the superior pitcher to Beckett the last three seasons.

[TheKilo]

Did he make my small list?

 

No - who do you rate higher?

 

And what's with the smugness?

[Cocos Disciples]

2004 Schilling is still the last year we had a True Ace on our staff. Daisuke if he didn't walk the known universe, Beckett if he could ever put two healthy years together, but since they have these struggles, no to both of them.

 

If you can say 2004 Schilling even though he wasn't an ace after, can't I say 2007 Beckett even though he wasn't ace after?

[Dojji]

If you can say 2004 Schilling even though he wasn't an ace after' date=' can't I say 2007 Beckett even though he wasn't ace after?[/quote']

 

No, because here we're talking about a player who lost it because of a combination of age and injury based decline. Beckett is still allegedly in his prime. Same for Sabbathia.

 

The only reason I felt the need to mention a specific year is because that's the only year he we controlled him during the muldiple year stretch where Schilling was an ace and we controlled Schilling for several years after he was no longer an ace but still a good pitcher.

[BoSox21]

And don't give me some stupid argument like "well Jeff Suppan in 2006 was lightz outtttttt in the playoffs so I guess he's an ace" cause obviously you need the regular season numbers too

 

Ace

 

http://images.sportsnetwork.com/mlb/getty/stlouis/2006/weaver_jeff8_265.jpg

 

2006 Postseason: 29.2 IP, 25 H, 8 ER, 9 BB, 19K, 2.47 ERA

 

Right.

 

Just substitute Jeff Suppan for Jeff Weaver.

 

Nice.

[BoSox21]

Under what I think is the proper criteria, its very very rare to call a pitcher an ace over his entire career and im not about to dive into history to find true aces but Schilling in '04 was an ace and Beckett in '07 was definitely an ace.

[jacksonianmarch]

Over the last 3 seasons, CC has been a major ace. Nobody can dispute that. Look at these numbers

 

686.2IP 643H 231ER 632K 142BB 1.14WHIP 3.03ERA .247BAA 4.5K/BB 8.3K/9IP. The only guy who goes beyond that is Santana. Peavy has better WHIP and K numbers but not innings (and he's in the best pitchers park and in the NLW). The rest dont match up.

[example1]

I would include Brandon Webb in the discussion of guys with Santana and Peavy over the past 3 years:

 

VORP, AVG over past 3 seasons (06, 07, 08)

 

Santana:

2008: 73.6

2007: 57.7

2006: 79.6

 

(AVG: 70.3)

 

Sabathia:

2008: 77.4

2007: 65.2

2006: 46.5

 

(AVG: 63.03)

 

Webb

2008: 51.0

2007: 66.1

2006: 68.9

 

(AVG: 62)

 

Peavy:

2008: 50.6

2007: 77.0

2006: 39.2

 

(AVG: 55.73)

 

Otherwise, you're right. The list is pretty short.

[BSN07]

Halladay I think has to be considered as well.

[ORS]

No - who do you rate higher?

 

And what's with the smugness?

I'm not being smug. To me, your question asked if Beckett was an "ace", not his standing relative to Sabathia. I rate Sabathia ahead of Beckett, mainly based on his consitency. Beckett does have the ability to surpass him if he can find some consistency, but until he does, he's a notch below Sabathia in my estimation.

[BSN07]

I'm not being smug. To me' date=' your question asked if Beckett was an "ace", not his standing relative to Sabathia. I rate Sabathia ahead of Beckett, mainly based on his consitency. Beckett does have the ability to surpass him if he can find some consistency, but until he does, he's a notch below Sabathia in my estimation.[/quote']

 

That's a fair argument ORS. I tend to agree with what your saying.

 

 

But if you give me a choice of one for one game, I'll take Beckett 10/10.

[BoSox21]

If there were to be a one game playoff for the AL wild card, I'd think most people would pick Beckett over Sabathia to be their starter

[Redsox20042007Celtics2008]

If there were to be a one game playoff for the AL wild card' date=' I'd think most people would pick Beckett over Sabathia to be their starter[/quote']

 

Easy call. Sabathia is a choker. 4 playoff games. 1-3. Look at this fat f***............

 

Game 1 ALDS W, 5.40 ERA

Game 1 ALCS L , 16.62 ERA

Game 5 ALCS L, 10.45 ERA

Game 1 NLDS L , 12.27 ERA

[jacksonianmarch]

how about now with Teixeira?

[example1]

Aren't there enough places where this is being discussed? Your smug picture of Teixeira in that dorky NY hat makes me think you're rehashing this just to stroke your own johnson.

[BoSox21]

how about now with Teixeira?

 

enough with the Gom-ish comments, there are enough places where most people are conceding the Yankees to be the division favorites

[diony]

Like the 109 pages thread named "Teixeira".

[TheKilo]

Yeah that's a major league troll post

[Dipre]

Yeah that's a major league troll post

 

http://inox.org/demot/TROLLING.jpg