2008-09 Boston Bruins Thread

[BoSox21]

Care to explain?

 

Example: Ryan O'Byrne was a +2 in a game earlier this season. He spoke about it after saying twice the team scored within 3 seconds of him getting on the ice. He had nothing to do with either goal yet was a +2.

 

Alex Ovechkin scored 46 goals in 2006-2007 yet was a -19. He scored 65 last year and was a +28. He scored 19 more goals which is significant but not significant enough 47 point plus/minus difference. So what was the reason? The Capitals had significantly better defense and goaltending, two things Ovechkin has nothing to do with.

[TheKilo]

But if Wideman is part of the defense that allows fewer goals, isn't that a product of the job he's doing on the defensive end?

 

He's been their 2nd best defenseman this year, IMO, behind Chara.

[BoSox21]

But if Wideman is part of the defense that allows fewer goals, isn't that a product of the job he's doing on the defensive end?

 

He's been their 2nd best defenseman this year, IMO, behind Chara.

 

Considering the Bruins are actually allowing more shots per game this year than they did last year, I'd be more inclined to credit Thomas and Fernandez for the decrease the goals allowed rather than the defense

 

Also, the offense is scoring more than a 1/2 goal per game more than they did last year so the offense is helping out that plus/minus as well

 

He's the second-best defenceman on a below-average corps, I'll agree with you there

[TheKilo]

Someone's bitter their team blows.

 

Are you really claiming Wideman is having a worse year than Boyes?

[ARod2212]

Shots are a poor way of judging how well a defense is playing. Teams can take 40 shots a game, but if they're from the sideboards or from bad angles, they're no threat. The defense is doing its job of limiting scoring opportunities.

 

I'm not saying this is what's happening in Boston, I haven't watched them. But don't credit the goalies for making easy saves just because there are a lot of them.

[BoSox21]

Someone's bitter their team blows.

 

Are you really claiming Wideman is having a worse year than Boyes?

 

We're having a debate on the relevance of plus/minus and you come back at me with a stupid, moronic comment like "Someone's bitter their team blows"? Grow up dude, you're better than that

 

I'm claiming that St. Louis has gotten the better end of the deal to this point, it's stupid to compare the seasons the two are having after 15 games or so

[TheKilo]

So when I try to use +/- in favor of a defenseman, you come back saying it's irrelevant due to the fact that offensive superstars typically have a low +/- because it's more tied to defensemen.

 

I posit that Wideman's +/-, as a defenseman, is one of the main reasons he's having a more successful season than Boyes, and you come back with the argument that the only reason Wideman's +/- is any good is that the offense is improved.

 

I'm curious as to what statistic you believe is better suited in comparing the two defensemen, which is really what the whole argument is about. I also find the sample to be significant because the NHL season is now over 25% completed.

 

You then make the "stupid, moronic" comment that the Bruins defense is a below-average corps even though the way they have played through 21 games suggests nothing of the sort.

 

So I ask - why do you think Boyes is having a better season at this point than Wideman?

[redsoxrules]

Example: Ryan O'Byrne was a +2 in a game earlier this season. He spoke about it after saying twice the team scored within 3 seconds of him getting on the ice. He had nothing to do with either goal yet was a +2.

 

Alex Ovechkin scored 46 goals in 2006-2007 yet was a -19. He scored 65 last year and was a +28. He scored 19 more goals which is significant but not significant enough 47 point plus/minus difference. So what was the reason? The Capitals had significantly better defense and goaltending, two things Ovechkin has nothing to do with.

 

Ovechkin improved his defense ability wich is why is +/- was much better .

+/- in most cases is NOT overated .it tells alot about a player. for instance look at Pavel Datsyuk his +/- over the last 3 years has been really strong because of his ability to play defense , back checking ..and NO its not because Detroit is a great team , its because he's an excellent defender . he's a complete player . watch him play and you'll see what I mean

 

also that Ryan O'byrne example dosent happen often , it just so happen that when his team scored he stepped on the ice

[BoSox21]

So when I try to use +/- in favor of a defenseman, you come back saying it's irrelevant due to the fact that offensive superstars typically have a low +/- because it's more tied to defensemen.

 

I posit that Wideman's +/-, as a defenseman, is one of the main reasons he's having a more successful season than Boyes, and you come back with the argument that the only reason Wideman's +/- is any good is that the offense is improved.

 

Yea, I do think Wideman's +/- is as good as it is because of the offense and the goaltending. The fact that the defense is allowing more shots on net per game than last year suggests to me that saying his +/- is improved because the defense is better is just wrong

 

I'm curious as to what statistic you believe is better suited in comparing the two defensemen' date=' which is really what the whole argument is about.[/b']

 

Brad Boyes is a forward...

 

So I ask - why do you think Boyes is having a better season at this point than Wideman?

 

I never said that, stop putting words in my mouth. I said I think to this point, St. Louis has gotten the better end of the deal, in the season and a half since the deal was made. To this point of the season, 20 games in, Wideman has been better but Tim Thomas is making the entire defence look damn good

[BoSox21]

Ovechkin improved his defense ability wich is why is +/- was much better .

+/- in most cases is NOT overated .it tells alot about a player. for instance look at Pavel Datsyuk his +/- over the last 3 years has been really strong because of his ability to play defense , back checking ..and NO its not because Detroit is a great team , its because he's an excellent defender . he's a complete player . watch him play and you'll see what I mean

 

Jason Spezza doesn't know the meaning of the word defense and he is +87 for his career.

 

And Ovechkin hasn't done s*** to improve his backchecking, his team finally developed a defense

 

also that Ryan O'byrne example dosent happen often , it just so happen that when his team scored he stepped on the ice

 

I watch a lot of hockey and far more often than not, the five players on the ice don't all contribute to a goal and the five players don't all make a mistake to allow a goal

[ARod2212]

+/- is a flawed and essentially useless as a stat to judge a player. Good barometer for how good a team is, but it means next to nothing about a player.

 

Marek Malik had outstanding +/- numbers, and he's one of the worst defensemen I've ever seen. But he played on a unit of 5 with Jaromir Jagr, and his numbers were great.

[TheKilo]

Yea' date=' I do think Wideman's +/- is as good as it is because of the offense and the goaltending. The fact that the [b']defense is allowing more shots on net per game than last year[/b] suggests to me that saying his +/- is improved because the defense is better is just wrong

 

But like ARod said earlier, what are the quality of the shots that the opponents are getting are worse than in years' past?

 

How many more shots per game are they allowing?

 

 

 

Brad Boyes is a forward...

 

My bad

 

 

I never said that, stop putting words in my mouth. I said I think to this point, St. Louis has gotten the better end of the deal, in the season and a half since the deal was made. To this point of the season, 20 games in, Wideman has been better but Tim Thomas is making the entire defence look damn good

 

At what point does the deal favor Wideman, in your opinion?

[BoSox21]

But like ARod said earlier, what are the quality of the shots that the opponents are getting are worse than in years' past?

 

How many more shots per game are they allowing?

 

I have no way of knowing that. And they're allowing about a shot a game more, not significant but it is the most telling stat that the defense as a whole isn't improved.

 

At what point does the deal favor Wideman' date=' in your opinion?[/quote']

 

Both players are still relatively young so I'd like to see 5 years down the road. If Wideman develops a bit more ability defensively as opposed to being a one-dimensional, puck-moving defenseman best suited to quarterback a powerplay, then you're comparing a 40-goal scorer vs. a 25-minute a game shutdown defenseman and when it comes down to that, it all depends on team needs.

[TheKilo]

So saying Boyes is better than Wideman now, 1.5 years into your five year window, seems like a fruitless exercise no?

 

Wideman has been a great fit for this Bruins team. That we do know.

[BoSox21]

So saying Boyes is better than Wideman now, 1.5 years into your five year window, seems like a fruitless exercise no?

 

Wideman has been a great fit for this Bruins team. That we do know.

 

All I know for now is that I'm comparing a 40-goal scorer against a decent defenseman.

 

Wideman has been a great fit, no doubt about it and the Bruins are clicking on all cylinders.

[Dojji]

Boyes seems to be in no particular danger of scoring 40 this year.

[ARod2212]

I have no way of knowing that.

 

If you've watched the team the last two years, you would have a way of knowing. You'd be able to compare how difficult it is for the opposition to get scoring chances versus last season.

 

And they're allowing about a shot a game more, not significant but it is the most telling stat that the defense as a whole isn't improved.

You know what's a more telling stat? The defense allowing .4 fewer goals per game.

 

Minnesota has by far the best defense in hockey and rank right in the middle in shots allowed per game, 14th in the league. I'm not going to say their defense has regressed from last year.

 

Source for stats

http://hockeyrodent.com/RODENT.HTM17

[BoSox21]

Boyes seems to be in no particular danger of scoring 40 this year.

 

He's got 10 goals in 18 games which means he's on pace for 45 goals. Thanks for coming.

 

You know what's a more telling stat? The defense allowing .4 fewer goals per game.

 

I guess the vastly superior goaltending has nothing to do with that...

[TheKilo]

But what is the "vastly superior goaltending" the result of? If the defense is forcing opponents into weaker shots, and weaker scoring chances, then isn't it the defense that is responsible?

[BoSox21]

from the Bruins games ive seen, Tim Thomas has been playing out of his mind

[ARod2212]

I guess the vastly superior goaltending has nothing to do with that...

Yes, all of a sudden he's better than the '98-'99 Dominik Hasek who posted an NHL record .937 save percentage. A 34 year old journeyman goaltender is now having the most dominant season in history because he's so damn good with his mediocre defense.

 

Maybe his numbers are so good because the defense has made his life a little easier.

[BoSox21]

Yes, all of a sudden he's better than the '98-'99 Dominik Hasek who posted an NHL record .937 save percentage. A 34 year old journeyman goaltender is now having the most dominant season in history because he's so damn good with his mediocre defense.

 

Maybe his numbers are so good because the defense has made his life a little easier.

 

Jesus f***ing Christ, when did I say he's better than Dominik Hasek? All I did was point out that he has a ridiculous .944 save percentage through 14 games. Have I implied that I think it will last? NO. In fact several posts ago, I predicted he'll come down to earth.

 

I'll let you in on a little secret. Goaltenders tend to go on hot streaks from time to time. Brian Boucher and Patrick Lalime say hi.

 

Ty Conklin led the NHL in save percentage by the halfway point of last season. Is he among Brodeur, Luongo, Turco, Lunqvist or Kiprusoff? Hardly.

 

And don't use the "34-year old journeyman" thing cause for the past season and a half, Tim Thomas has been playing like anything but.

 

Strawman.

[TheKilo]

You said you think the Bruins are a 6-7-8 seed in the East...tell me who are the 5, 6, or 7 teams in this conference you think are better?

 

I think you can make the case for NYR, PIT, and WAS. That's about it at this point.

[BoSox21]

overall? I think Montreal, Pittsburgh, Washington, New York and Philadelphia are better. New Jersey, Carolina and Buffalo are on par

[rician blast]

Boyes -Wideman

 

I think it is very difficult to measure who got the better of the deal when the two players play different positions, in different systems, in different conferences.

 

Boyes in St. Louis does not = Boyes in Boston. Same goes for Wideman.

 

The Bruins needed a solid D-man, and they gave up a forward with potential and talent but one who was NOT, apparently, giving 100% all the time. He wasn't working in Boston. Good deal for both teams....and the B's have no reason to look back.

[Dojji]

I believe I just accomplished something very significant -- I got a group of Habs fans to actually think.

 

Over in HFBoards, I posited that Carbonneau gets some blame for O'Byrne's own goal because he pulled Price out of the net with the puck in the defensive zone, which creates the risk of an own goal. At first they laughed at me and still wanted to crucify O'Byrne but eventually a couple of them started talking like you know, it really is a risky play to pull the goaltender just because of a delayed penalty call when a bad bounce on a contested pass could allow a goal to score -- especially only up one goal.

 

Of course the conclusion of the majority of them is that if a forechecker forces an own goal on a delayed penalty the rules should be changed to disallow the goal (actually I'm torn on that one, they make a good case), but I actually got a few of them to admit that if Price stays in net O'Byrne's move is not only not a disaster for the Canadiens, it's pretty standard practice when a defenseman is smothered by a forecheck and that Carbonneau probably did leave him out to dry by pulling Price when he did.

[BoSox21]

O'Bryne didn't realize it was a delayed penalty which is the fault of the referee and his teammates for not yelling that out to him.

 

And Carbonneau didn't pull Price, Price is programmed to leave the net when a delayed penalty is called.

 

But the fault is still on O'Byrne for passing the puck with his head down.

[ARod2212]

Jesus f***ing Christ' date=' when did I say he's better than Dominik Hasek? All I did was point out that he has a ridiculous .944 save percentage through 14 games. Have I implied that I think it will last? [b']NO.[/b] In fact several posts ago, I predicted he'll come down to earth.

 

I'll let you in on a little secret. Goaltenders tend to go on hot streaks from time to time. Brian Boucher and Patrick Lalime say hi.

 

Ty Conklin led the NHL in save percentage by the halfway point of last season. Is he among Brodeur, Luongo, Turco, Lunqvist or Kiprusoff? Hardly.

 

And don't use the "34-year old journeyman" thing cause for the past season and a half, Tim Thomas has been playing like anything but.

 

Strawman.

So what is he? Is he Ty Conklin, Patrick Lalime, or is he "anything but a 34 year old journeyman"?

 

I don't watch the Bruins. My guess is that he is a mediocre goaltender who is playing well as a result of his defense.

[BoSox21]

He's a competent goaltender good enough to have a .910-.920 save percentage. He certainly isn't a .944 save percentage guy.

[TheKilo]

With Ward going down last night, I'm thinking it is a good thing the Bruins have Dennis Wideman on their team.