The Joe Girardi Thread

[yankees228]

I figured I would make a thread separate from the gamethread where we can discuss/question in game moves made by Girardi. I know I'll get a lot of heat from the Yankee fans on this site because you guys all seem to dislike Torre, but Girardi is no better.

 

He has really made some stupid moves over the past couple of weeks...

 

-Letting Edwar Ramirez face Teixiera last Sunday with the bases loaded (with Marte ready in the bullpen). Turn Teixiera around and make him hit to the bigger part of the ballpark. Letting him hit lefty in that spot, with Edwar struggling against the previous three batters is the wrong move. And please, lets not make the argument that Teixeira was 5-6 career against Marte.

 

-Letting Marte face Marlon Byrd on Monday. Marte had walked three guys in the inning. In my opinion, there were only two possible results. Either Marte was going to continue to be wild and walk in the winning run, or he was going to groove one to Byrd (which he did). You had Robertson ready in the bullpen and that would have given you a righty righty matchup, but most importantly it would have gotten Marte out of the game.

 

-Bunting with Jeter today with first and second and nobody out in the seventh inning with the Yankees up 3-1. I already talked about this in the GT, but I figured I would mention it here too. You have the pitcher on the ropes, he gave up two home runs last inning, and three singles to open up the current inning (even Melky got a hit off him!!!). With the state of the Yankees bullpen, the explosiveness of the Angels offense, and the heart of the Yankees lineup coming up you play for the big inning. They had a great opportunity, and it usually ends poorly when you give away outs to really good pitchers. If the Yankees have a big inning, there's a good chance the Angels don't rally like they did in my opinion.

 

-The first move should have cost them the game if the Angels defense didn't s*** the bed in the next inning and the other two moves did cost them the games.

[ORS]

I disagree about having Jeter bunt. I think that was the right move. Jeter has hit into 18 DPs on the season, and Lackey is a pitcher who generates a fair amount of GBs. The expected runs change from 1.49 to 1.39, so you lose a little probability for the big inning, but when you are up 3-1 and you can make it so that a single scores 2 in the 7th, with your 3 and 4 coming up, I think you do it. I didn't see that as a mistake at the time.

[yankees228]

I disagree about having Jeter bunt. I think that was the right move. Jeter has hit into 18 DPs on the season' date=' and Lackey is a pitcher who generates a fair amount of GBs. The expected runs change from 1.49 to 1.39, so you lose a little probability for the big inning, but when you are up 3-1 and you can make it so that a single scores 2 in the 7th, with your 3 and 4 coming up, I think you do it. I didn't see that as a mistake at the time.[/quote']

 

The fact that your 3 and 4 hitters coming up are, in my opinion, the prime reason why you shouldn't bunt. Honestly, with the way the Yankees' relief pitchers have been pitching and the way the Angels have been hitting, I'm not playing for the score to be 5-1. I think the proper thing to do is to try to blow the game open in that situation. Lackey was really struggling, and the Yanks had their big hitters coming up.

 

I look at that situation as an opportunity to blow the game open.

[ORS]

I'd agree if it were earlier in the game. But those marginal runs are big late in the game. If Jeter DPs, the win expectancy drops from 86.1% to 80.6%. If Abreu singles them both home, it goes up to 95.1%. When I've got a guy at the plate proned to the GB and DP this year, I move them over and put my hotter hitter up. Abreu's hitting .361 in the second half.

 

Given the circumstances, I go for that easier to get 10% jump in win probability.

[jacksonianmarch]

Here is how I view Girardi.

 

Girardi is still feeling his way through this team. There is a ton of turnover as well as a TON of injuries. Not many teams can handle losing their ace and then the guy who steps in as their ace. Essentially your top 2 starters. Then to have your #4 and #5 starters go down with injury and ineffectiveness. I said at the start of the yr that the yankees starters went 6 deep including Chamberlain. Well, 4 have missed significant time.

 

Not to mention the turnover in the lineup. Jorge Posada was considered to be one of the most irreplaceable yankees since he broke into the bigs around 1998. He wasnt himself from day 1 and is now out for the yr. It is tough losing a player who hit .338 with 20HR and a .900+OPS and turning that into a guy who can barely OPS .600. While defense is certainly a factor, Posada's loss on the offensive side of the ball is unquestioned.

 

Then you lose 3 weeks of ARod and Damon. Hideki Matsui, who was hitting .320 and last yr had a .800+OPS and 100+RBI season has missed 50 games and counting. Then factor in Cano and Melky going into the tank for the full yr for the most part and all things considered, Girardi has faced more adversity than can be imagined.

 

In terms of what he has done, you really need to take a look at the culture that was left behind. Joe Torre was a guy who came into Yankee lore in the mid 90s as a National League manager in the AL. He bunted, hit and ran, bunted for hits, etc. That stopped being employed by him for some reason and we have seen too many ploddingly slow players bounce into DPs because of it. That being said, Girardi is an NL style manager and he was an NL style player. Bunting and hit and run are part of his game. Getting back to today's game, I agree wholeheartedly with bunting Jeter in that spot. He hits into DPs all day long, Lackey gets GIDPs like it is his job and Abreu is a dynamite hitter with RISP. It was the right call.

 

In terms of his bullpen management, Girardi and Torre are on absolute opposite ends of the spectrum. Torre was a guy who pulled pitchers at 100 pitches or any time there was a hint of trouble from innings 6 on. Girardi is the kid of guy who lets pitchers get out of their own jams, even if they are obviously done. Torre wouldnt use the kids to save his life, using only 2 or 3 middle relievers ad nauseum and letting the other guys rot. Essentially making those 2 or 3 burn out by mid yr and the other guys rusty come time for them to be called upon. Girardi is not like that. He seems to use guys who are a bit green in key spots to get them battle tested. I am unsure if this is a way for him to toughen the kids up or a way for him to learn what these kids have. I would hope that he slots these guys into formed roles come next yr. Today was bad. Geise was dominating. Veras comes in and gets hit hard, but it wasnt all that obvious that he would do so. Edwar, OTOH, is a guy who is absolutely reliant on an off speed pitch and not necessarily best equipped for a must win game.

 

Regardless, come next yr, I think Girardi will have made more progress than regress. I still think Veras is a closer in the making and we have turned Edwar from a waste heap guy to a middle reliever capable of eating innings. He also threw Robertson into the fire and it is obvious that he has the goods to get the job done. Throw in Melancon coming down the pipe and Marte now in the fold and our pen will have experience and solid power to start the yr.

 

In terms of how Girardi is doing in terms of today, he gets a C from me, mostly for his choice of Edwar in a tied game against HR hitters. But I agreed with the bunt and am glad he let Geise get through 6.

 

Regardless, it might be time for Joe to think about next yr and getting the kids into the games as much as possible. This team has taken on way too much water. If you want to point at something that our playoff teams with late season surges had in common was health. By the end of the yr, most of our guys came back. Hence, we made a hell of a run when guys came back fresh. This yr has been backwards. We started the yr healthy and are seeing guys drop off like flies as the season comes to a close.

[yankees228]

I'd agree if it were earlier in the game. But those marginal runs are big late in the game. If Jeter DPs, the win expectancy drops from 86.1% to 80.6%. If Abreu singles them both home, it goes up to 95.1%. When I've got a guy at the plate proned to the GB and DP this year, I move them over and put my hotter hitter up. Abreu's hitting .361 in the second half.

 

Given the circumstances, I go for that easier to get 10% jump in win probability.

 

Definitely a good point.

 

It's just that the way I looked at it at the time was that in order to win this game (because of factors I've already mentioned) they were probably going to need a big inning at some point. Bunting with Jeter definitely decreased the odds of having that big inning.

[yankees228]

As for the bullpen, yes, Torre had a history of blowing out some arm...

 

But I think the problem with judging managers on their bullpen use is that when the bullpen is pitching really well everyone says that the manager is doing a great job handling his pitchers, but when some of the guys come back down to earth he looks like an idiot.

 

EDIT: And by the way Jacko, when it comes to Torre you really seem to have short term memory. Look, which pitchers did Torre not use on a consistent basis that cost them so many games. You always say that he never went to the kids in the bullpen, and I agree he favors the veterans, but lets see some names...

 

I guess you've forgotten how much he trusted Mariano Rivera in his first full season, or how often he went to Ramiro Mendoza in crucial situations...

[jacksonianmarch]

Like I said before, Joe was a totally different manager towards the end of his tenure. But his MO was to ride the hot hand, and if a kid came in and dominated, he'd use them until they broke. If a kid came in and struggled initially, he'd avoid the kid like the plague. Mo and Mendoza succeeded from the beginning so he got in his good graces.

[Gom]

I hate everything Yankees now. f*** all of them.

[dreilly]

I hate everything Yankees now. f*** all of them.

 

I'd be happy to oblige you with some Red Sox gear.

 

I'm sorry you are pissy right now, Gom.

[Gom]

Bite me.

[dreilly]

Bite me.

 

As if I didn't see that one coming.

[yankees228]

If you're going to pitch Rivera in the ninth inning, on the road, in a tie game, don't wait for someone else to put runners on base. That was ridiculous. Make the change before trouble starts instead of after it starts.

[Gom]

I disagree. He made the right call. The players have to execute. He was hoping to get lucky and get another inning out of Marte.

[a700hitter]

I disagree. He made the right call. The players have to execute. He was hoping to get lucky and get another inning out of Marte.

It was a panic move.

[das11209]

Let us see. So he leaves Marte and he gives up a grand slam and its Joe's fault. So he takes Marte out and brings in arguably the best closer in the game. He gives up a hit in 1st pitch - the lazy 2nd baseman did not want to move his butt and whose fault is it? Joe's of course.

 

A manager is as good as his player's are.

[jacksonianmarch]

The pen is starting to get tired unfortunately. Hell, marte seems to be in every game as it is. As with any good pen, you can only push them so far.

[Gom]

Fire Cashman and promote Gene Michael.

[yankees228]

It was a panic move.

 

Exactly. If he's committed to using Rivera in the ninth then go to him to start the inning. And Gom, hoping to get lucky is not a good strategy for a MLB manager.

[yankees228]

Let us see. So he leaves Marte and he gives up a grand slam and its Joe's fault. So he takes Marte out and brings in arguably the best closer in the game. He gives up a hit in 1st pitch - the lazy 2nd baseman did not want to move his butt and whose fault is it? Joe's of course.

 

A manager is as good as his player's are.

 

No. It's Joe's fault that he waited to go to Rivera. If he was OK with going to him for two outs than why not just go to him for all three. Instead you let Marte pitch you into a jam, and then have to go to Rivera to get out of it. Just go to him to start the inning if you're going to go to him.

 

As for the grand slam, again, Girardi didn't make him give it up, but he should not have faced Byrd. It was a bad spot for him, and they had people in the bullpen better prepared to handle it in my opinion.

 

However, I agree with you last statement, in general.

 

EDIT: But managers have the job to put their players in spots where they are more likely to succeed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Fire Cashman and promote Gene Michael.

 

this shows how out of touch with reality you are. Cashman and Michael are working along the same exact lines. Build the farm, built for a decade long run rather than the short term. Do you even know what you want anymore?

[jacksonianmarch]

so we just got swept. And you know how to fix that? By sitting our leading hitter and one of our leading HR hitters for 2 AAAA guys. AWESOME!!

[jacksonianmarch]

Justin Christian and Melky Cabrera = teh suck

[yankees228]

so we just got swept. And you know how to fix that? By sitting our leading hitter and one of our leading HR hitters for 2 AAAA guys. AWESOME!!

 

You know, that's a good point. But here's the thing. I bet if Joe Torre was still managing he would play Pudge, Jose Molina, and Sidney Ponson in the outfield!

 

Oh my god. Imagine how slow that outfield would be?!?! Thankfully Torre is not managing. Phew. What a f***ing idiot that ******* was.

 

So be thankful we have Girardi, otherwise you would have two catchers and a fat starting pitcher in the outfield everyday. And even for a catcher Molina moves pretty slow. That would probably not work too well, know what I mean?

[Gom]

You can't pin this one on Joe. They got four hits, 1st and 3rd no one out, and no score. At some point, you have to blame the GM for this assembly of s***.

[a700hitter]

He should have had Damon in the lineup. He's the catalyst. After dropping 3 in a row to the Angels, they needed to turn the tide.

[Mr Crunchy]

girardi had 1 season in miami where he went .500 and the entire tri state area genuflected when he got the job...the vets hate him,the kids dont play for him,in fact cano and cabrerra are manny lite without the #s...damon sat last nite while leading the a.l in hitting,good to see richie sexon get a shot when it matters...the entire daily news forum are walking to the veranzano bridge to do themselves in and we here in boston just sit back and pray that brian cashman gets a 5 year extension.

[a700hitter]

From the beginning of the season, I told you that Girardi was a boob and that it was only a matter of time before he gets run out of town. Yankee fans have been so confused by the fact that their prize rookies Hughes and Kennedy produced zero wins and Joba got injured that they really weren't watching the horrible job being done by Girardi. The NY Press has thought him to be a clown for some time now, and they are finally printing it.

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/09/27/2008-09-27_joe_girardi_makes_trouble_for_himself_wi.html?page=0

[Gom]

The media isn't happy with him since he isn't too forthright with injuries like Torre was.

 

Torre was a player's manager, and Girardi is a better strategist in my mind. Let's not forget that Torre didn't do anything to spur this team since 2000. I'm a Girardi fan, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if he was replaced.

[a700hitter]

The media isn't happy with him since he isn't too forthright with injuries like Torre was.

 

Torre was a player's manager, and Girardi is a better strategist in my mind. Let's not forget that Torre didn't do anything to spur this team since 2000. I'm a Girardi fan, but I wouldn't be heartbroken if he was replaced.

No one in the NY media referred to Torre as a "clown".