Manny Ramirez

[a700hitter]

how so? because he's a rookie who is going through a slump like a vast majority of rookies do? do you need to be reminded how abysmal Dustin Pedroia was before he became one of the best hitters in the AL?

 

he's still batting around .265 and remains one of, if not the most dangerous base-runner in baseball not to mention his above-average defensive ability

...and maybe the best fly catcher in the al.

[ORS]

Bowden isn't that high on a lot of GMs list either.

This will be a tough one to sell considering you scoff at those of us who follow the minor leagues. In short, I think this is a complete fabrication.

[example1]

This will be a tough one to sell considering you scoff at those of us who follow the minor leagues. In short' date=' I think this is a complete fabrication.[/quote']

 

You've got the Gom file as well.

 

A team would be stupid not to look at a guy like Bowden as a valuable trading piece. Nobody here is saying Bowden alone could land a guy like Holliday, but as part of a package he'd be a very, VERY nice pickup (for a player that nobody in Denver has ever heard of!).

[Gom]

Dude, you read the press clippings. He just doesn't have that dominating stuff GMs look for.

 

Don't fall into the Jacko pitfall of believing everything you read/hear about players in the minors. The reason why some prospects put up numbers in the minors that are staggering and then they suck up here is this:

 

Anyone who is any good is up here.

 

People are more apt to take a chance on pitchers than hitters, which is why they would take Buchholz over Ellsbury. Remember, it was in the spring that the majority of you believed the following:

 

Hughes and Kennedy were potential high end starters who were much more along in the process than the rest of their minor league counterparts.

Ellsbury was the Red Sox CF for the next ten years.

 

Last year at this time:

 

Joba Chamberlain was a work in progress and was most likely a reliever due to him being a two pitch pitcher.

 

Buchholz was the crown jewel of the Red Sox. He had a lot more value than Jon Lester.

 

If you agreed with more than half of this stuff, then maybe you should try WATCHING the players a bit more instead of reading about them.

[Mr Crunchy]

pat the bat?

i could hit 35hrs in philly,a 900 ops in philly,those are youkilis #s in boston

fenway isnt the hitters park it used to be since the 406 club was built.

manny is a guy who uses all fields so the wall hasnt helped him as much as it may seem.

adding another bat like jd drews to replace manny is a nice thought for next year

this year it'll get us 3rd place in the east...

we have too many ifs on the offense end this year

for years we could hide a tek or a lugo in our lineup...no more

our outfield hasnt done s*** in a month,ellsbury and crisp are hitting like kansas city faggots,veritek is ripping them up at .210 and the shortstop position has gone from the subliminal to the sublime.

youk and lowell are notorious for tailing off later in the year...

whats that leave us...

jd drew,manny and ortiz and pedroia.

...drew went into last night 4-34,manny went into last night thinking of throttling either youkilis,john henry or little theo epstein and ortiz is coming off injury...pedroia has been their mvp this year,will it continue this way??..

a lot of questions on the offense end

of course if lowell youk pedroia and drew perform as they can then we'll be fine because we do know manny and ortiz,the best 3/4 combo in 70 years,will be productive.

the spark is ellsbury and his decline has been subtle yet brutal just the same.

can he hit anymore??

is he hurt or have they found out how to get him out....

hes the spark and a huge reason why theyre hitting like old people f***

[ORS]

Ahh ,the tried and true, "Watch the games!", comment. This is from page 1 of the Idiot's Guide to Arguing About Performance Analysis When You are Too Stupid to Understand It book.

 

Ok, so let's clear up what you are saying. The problem is we didn't watch the games last year. It was obvious to anyone who did that Lester, while walking the ballpark, was head and shoulders better than Buchholz, who threw a no-no. It was obvious to anyone who watched, that Jacoby Ellsbury was a run-of-the-mill CF when nobody could get him out or keep him from swiping bags in September and October. I mean, you certainly thought Lester was better than Buchholz last year after watching the games, right?

 

And, here's the kicker. Bowden doesn't have the knockout stuff according to you? We know how much you love the minor leagues, Gom. Clearly, this appraisal was done when you went and WATCHED HIM PITCH, right? Didn't think so.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Ellsbury was the Red Sox CF for the next ten years.

Hyperbole, but I don't see why Ellsbury wouldn't be the Red Sox CF for the forseeable future. I'm not going to let a cold streak in a guys rookie season write him off.

 

Last year at this time:

 

Joba Chamberlain was a work in progress and was most likely a reliever due to him being a two pitch pitcher.

Again this isn't exactly true, he was very projectable as a dominant CL type but his other offspeed stuff was at least passable for him to be a SP.

 

Buchholz was the crown jewel of the Red Sox. He had a lot more value than Jon Lester.

Buchholz still is the crown jewel of the Red Sox. Again he is in his rookie season, has ace type stuff. There are very few AL SPs who are striking out a batter an inning.

 

And since you are saying to watch the film, at this time last year Jon Lester looked very mediocre and Buchholz was looking very good. Luckily we have both now .

[BoSox21]

Hughes and Kennedy were potential high end starters who were much more along in the process than the rest of their minor league counterparts.

 

Ellsbury was the Red Sox CF for the next ten years.

 

Last year at this time:

 

Joba Chamberlain was a work in progress and was most likely a reliever due to him being a two pitch pitcher.

 

Buchholz was the crown jewel of the Red Sox. He had a lot more value than Jon Lester.

 

Seriously, are you that new to baseball that you're completely clueless to the fact that not all rookies come into the majors and immediately realize their potential? I'm not ready to write off Hughes and Kennedy and I see absolutely no reason to write off Ellsbury and Buchholz

[example1]

Dude, you read the press clippings. He just doesn't have that dominating stuff GMs look for.

 

Don't fall into the Jacko pitfall of believing everything you read/hear about players in the minors. The reason why some prospects put up numbers in the minors that are staggering and then they suck up here is this:

 

Anyone who is any good is up here.

 

People are more apt to take a chance on pitchers than hitters, which is why they would take Buchholz over Ellsbury. Remember, it was in the spring that the majority of you believed the following:

 

Hughes and Kennedy were potential high end starters who were much more along in the process than the rest of their minor league counterparts.

Ellsbury was the Red Sox CF for the next ten years.

 

Last year at this time:

 

Joba Chamberlain was a work in progress and was most likely a reliever due to him being a two pitch pitcher.

 

Buchholz was the crown jewel of the Red Sox. He had a lot more value than Jon Lester.

 

If you agreed with more than half of this stuff, then maybe you should try WATCHING the players a bit more instead of reading about them.

 

Given that none of us have the time or bankroll to watch each and every pitch that Michael Bowden throws, I would say the best we can do is "read" his statistics and watch what we can watch. Buchholz is still a great prospect, probably one of the best pitching prospects in baseball. Buchholz is 23, Ellsbury 24, Bowden 21. They're all very young, and for their age they are all very well developed.

 

Yes, you're right, Hughes didn't produce this season like he could have. Does that mean that by the time he's 27 he won't be a top-notch pitcher? nope. It means that he didn't produce much this year before injury.

 

If only there were some way of seeing how people really thought of these pitchers at some point in the past... oh yeah, there is.

 

A thread created by (but not contributed to by) Gom, "Rank the pitchers"

http://www.talksox.com/forum/talk-sox-forum/10119-rank-pitchers.html

 

Here's how I ranked them (12/10/07):

 

Buchholz

Hughes

Lester

Chamberlain

Kennedy

Delcarmen

Hansen

 

I think that's still a pretty good ranking, except for Hughes. It's not possible to know Hughes' ceiling but he's dropped in my mind. Chamberlain will have a good career, and Lester has developed into the pitcher that the Sox FO knew they had for the past few years. Buchholz has the best stuff of the group with 3 plus-plus pitches, though all three at the top (Chamberlain, Buchholz and Lester) have really, really good stuff. I'm not ready to make any final declarations about any of the three.

 

I would likely have put Bowden between Chamberlain and Kennedy if you had offered his name at the time.

[zackredsox]

Rotoworld -

SI.com reports that the Dodgers and Red Sox are currently having discussions about Manny Ramirez.

 

The talks are said to be in the early stages, and there are said to be a number of obstacles that still need to be cleared. The Red Sox are probably looking for Matt Kemp or Andre Ethier, and the Dodgers would like to rid themselves of Andruw Jones' salary.

[Rdsxmbnt]

I'd love to add Kemp to this team.

a) ~20mil cheaper then Manny, under control of the team for the next 3 years

13 years younger than Manny

c) He has a 3.9 WARP(1) for this season compared to Manny's 4.5, so you don't lose that much and you get a guy who could fill the LF spot for a long time. Not to mention he's a pretty good base stealer also.

[BoSox21]

why the hell would we want Andruw Jones?

[TheKilo]

I don't think teams are as high on your prospects as you are. The same holds true for us' date=' but Ellsbury has taken a MAJOR hit this season. Bowden isn't that high on a lot of GMs list either. If you want Holliday, you'd have to talk Buchholz, Masterson, and/or Lowrie. Some sort of combo, anyways.[/quote']

 

I find the opposite to be true.

 

Bowden wanted Masterson AND Lowrie for Rauch but ultimately settled on Bonaficio - GMs seem to rate our prospects very highly and are looking to do everything they can do get their hands on them.

[TheKilo]

how so? because he's a rookie who is going through a slump like a vast majority of rookies do? do you need to be reminded how abysmal Dustin Pedroia was before he became one of the best hitters in the AL?

 

he's still batting around .265 and remains one of, if not the most dangerous base-runner in baseball not to mention his above-average defensive ability

 

This time last year Pedroia was hitting .315. Your comparison doesn't hold water.

[TheKilo]

Matt Kemp would be sick.

[example1]

This time last year Pedroia was hitting .315. Your comparison doesn't hold water.

 

Is your argument that one should get impatient and determine that Ellsbury won't make it in the big leagues? It seems he was merely pointing out that Pedroia took awhile to get going but once he did he was a shadow of his struggling former self.

 

YOu're right about the timeline though.

 

Kemp would be a fine pickup to partially replace Manny's production. He's probably the best the Sox could expect in return.

[Mr Crunchy]

hey gom

nice post...

prospects are just that,prospects and the sox have been incredibly fortunate over the last few years where in years past it was usually 1 disaster after another..we've done very well in our farm since the henry clan took the helm...know who else has done very well?

the yanks

theyve developed cano wang cabrerra and chamberlain,3 allstars for sureand these guys didnt play in the 04 series against us,theyre all bred thru the system and this isnt counting hughes or kennedy who may indeed produce or the bag of s*** pittsburghtook for the lefty set up guy and x

as good as the sox have been the yanks farm has really stepped up in their own right

where were we?

oh ya prospects

i wanted jason schmidt in 2005 for paplebon

see why i work in the credit and collections industry rather than in baseball

[TheKilo]

Is your argument that one should get impatient and determine that Ellsbury won't make it in the big leagues? It seems he was merely pointing out that Pedroia took awhile to get going but once he did he was a shadow of his struggling former self.

 

YOu're right about the timeline though.

 

Kemp would be a fine pickup to partially replace Manny's production. He's probably the best the Sox could expect in return.

 

No - but even the most staunch Ellsbury defender has to admit he's hurt the team more than anyone not named Varitek in the regular lineup over the last month and a half.

[BoSox21]

This time last year Pedroia was hitting .315. Your comparison doesn't hold water.

 

Last year, Pedroia had a major slump as a rookie. Hell, this year, he had a major slump. When I say Jacoby Ellsbury shouldn't be counted out because he's in a slump, the comparison holds water

 

Hell, Ellsbury has only dipped below .260 for 1 game this season, it's absolutely ludicrous to suggest his status and value as a long-term solution at centerfield should be doubted

[BoSox21]

No - but even the most staunch Ellsbury defender has to admit he's hurt the team more than anyone not named Varitek in the regular lineup over the last month and a half.

 

but that's only because Pedroia, Youkilis, Manny, Lowell, Drew, Youkilis have all had good to great seasons

[Jayhawk Bill]

I don't think teams are as high on your prospects as you are. The same holds true for us' date=' but Ellsbury has taken a MAJOR hit this season. [/quote']

 

Cheez, he was way higher than Tabata entering the season, and his MLB stats clobber Tabata's AA stats, and Ellsbury hasn't been suspended by his team twice for his behavior...

 

I see Ellsbury plus three non-prospects as being worth more than a .330-hitting corner outfielder and a very good LHP. Given that you've defended the logic of the Yankees-Pirates trade, you'll have a very tough time disputing my logic here without conceding that you're a liar.

[jacksonianmarch]

Tabata is 5 yrs younger

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Tabata is 5 yrs younger

 

You are saying Jose Tabata has more value than Jacoby Ellsbury?

[jacksonianmarch]

no, just pointing something out

[Jayhawk Bill]

Tabata is 5 yrs younger...just pointing something out

 

Yes, and, as I've recently pointed out, his peak value as a hitter--considering both his 2008 performance and his youthful age--was determined to be fifth-best among the position players on his AA team.

 

Ellsbury's value exceeds that of any position player on most AA teams, let alone the fifth-best player...the fifth-best player considering age and future peak value...were age not considered, of course, Tabata would have been released given his terrible stats, his expanding waistline, and his cocky attitude.

[TheKilo]

Last year, Pedroia had a major slump as a rookie. Hell, this year, he had a major slump. When I say Jacoby Ellsbury shouldn't be counted out because he's in a slump, the comparison holds water

 

Hell, Ellsbury has only dipped below .260 for 1 game this season, it's absolutely ludicrous to suggest his status and value as a long-term solution at centerfield should be doubted

 

That's fine.

 

He has still killed the team the last month and a half.

[example1]

You're right that his performance the past month and a half has been bad. Of course, to say that any one player is single-handedly "killing" the team, on a team with a 133,000,000 payroll (of which he accounts for well less than 1%), seems to be overstating it a bit. He's not making errors at an ungodly pace, he's simply underproducing in a manner that isn't helpful but which happens on teams all the time.

 

TheKilo, I hear and understand your frustration. The Sox are in a tough spot right now, as SS, C and CF (the three top defensive positions) are all producing virtually nothing offensively, and there are no prospects for any to be improved upon any time soon. I think by the end of the season Ellsbury will have come around--his chances seem much better than those of Lug-cora-ie or Varitek.

 

Veterans haven't been producing at a break-neck pace either. Youkilis has been good, but Lowell has a .654 OPS for the last month and Varitek is hitting at a .549 OPS pace during that period. Blame Ellsbury if you must, but he's not single handedly killing anything.

 

 

I was at the game tonight. Manny's hustle was pathetic. I'm a very 'lax' kind of guy. I don't chew players out around here for taking the game patiently, not always hustling, making tons of money, whatever. It's a long season and a routine groundball is a routine groundball. But when Lackey has a no-hitter going and the Sox have their rookie on the hill and Manny twice hits balls to the left side and doesn't hustle, once with the ball nearly being thrown away and the 1B needing to jump to get the ball and still getting him, I can't stand it anymore. Neither could Fenway. The boos were loud and clear.

 

The man makes nearly $40,000 per AB if he is tough enough to get 520 ABs a season. In a night he can earn half a house, or a very expensive college education. In two nights his check is roughly 300,000. The least he can do is run down the f***ing line.

[Paradisecity]

Ellsbury needs three weeks out of the lineup to work on mechanics to get back what he lost when he hurt his wrist playing defense.

 

Manny is only hurting himself by portraying himself this way. There was another potential (at the time) future hall of famer who played here and paved his own way out of town only a few years ago. The story didn't end so well for him, and the nostalgia faded very quickly.....

[rician blast]

Ellsbury needs three weeks out of the lineup to work on mechanics to get back what he lost when he hurt his wrist playing defense.

 

Manny is only hurting himself by portraying himself this way. There was another potential (at the time) future hall of famer who played here and paved his own way out of town only a few years ago. The story didn't end so well for him, and the nostalgia faded very quickly.....

 

Meanwhile, a guy like Dave Roberts, who was a class act all the way, was not only treated very well by the FO but is still revered by the fans....despite the fact that his body of work pails in comparison to the superstars you're referring to.

 

Could one surmise that the Sox FO and fan base both appreciate, and reward, teamwork, attitude, character, etc. in addition to performance?

[Paradisecity]

Pretty crazy thought, huh?