Curt Schilling Officially Done for 2008

[Jayhawk Bill]

Ok' date=' well its clear the only opinion that matters is your own.[/quote']

 

I believe that TheKilo is posting facts, not opinions, and that he is expressing displeasure with opinions that differ with facts.

 

That is, however, an opinion based upon observation...:dunno:

 

A fact, though: TheKilo attacked the post, not you.

 

Money really doesnt matter to them, to say it does is ridiculous, remember....the Sox have the two highest paid world series winning teams to ever play the game.

 

Remember...the Yankees significantly outspent the Red Sox each World Series-winning year (as well as other years).

 

[table] Year | Red Sox | Yankees

2007 | $ 143,026,214 | $ 189,639,045

2004 | $ 127,298,500 | $ 184,193,950 [/table]

 

If money truly doesn't matter to John Henry et al, one is forced to wonder why they don't spend more of it, given that the Yankees are certainly spending more of it.

[TheKilo]

Ok, well its clear the only opinion that matters is your own.

 

Renteria and Clement stand up an say helloooo.

 

Money really doesnt matter to them, to say it does is ridiculous, remember....the Sox have the two highest paid world series winning teams to ever play the game.

 

The Sox throw plenty of money around and get the results that they may not have expected.

 

They tried to get something out of Clement and Renteria. In fact, they got Andy Marte out of Renteria, regarded by some as the best prospect in the game.

 

The point you seem to be missing is that it isn't that the Sox make financial mistakes. They do. It's that they still try to get something out of these players WHICH IS WHY THE SOX DIDN'T WANT SCHILLING TO HAVE SURGERY.

 

I think you were a little harsh in response to my points. I highlighted the fact it is a business. It was already stated that he would be lost for the year anyways, however with surgery, they said there was a chance he could return, as opposed to no chance by rehabbing.

 

You have it backwards. There was no chance he'd pitch this season if he had the surgery, and some chance if he rehabbed. The chances weren't great for either, but why not give rehab a shot?

 

You say Bull f***in s*** to the point I made about the different ways the two sides approached the situation, then basically said the same exact thing I did using different terms. They in fact DID tell him not to have the surgery, because he was their property and they felt that he may be able to rehab it.They couldnt void the contract, welll....bc MLB contracts are guarenteed. Schilling wanted the surgery, and they told him no, they may not have held a gun to his head as you say, but it was fairly obvious they were against it, and he had to follow suit as an employee of the Redsox.

 

Again, you miss the point SPECTACULARLY. Why are the Red Sox the bad guys here when Schilling could have just as easily given back the $8 million and had the surgery he so desperately wanted? Oh wait - could it be because he didn't want to give back the $8 million? And the FO is being selfish?

 

You oppose my post so aggressively, but in reality, we dont differ too much in our opinions, bottom line, its a business, Schill is an employee of the Redsox, and they were seeking the best way possible to get a return in their investment, and in the end it didnt work out.

 

So what's the issue? They ran their business the way ANYONE ELSE would, and they continue to get flack for it. It's ridiculous.

[schillingouttheks]

I find it difficult to refute anything TheKilo has said. If Curt is making a guaranteed $8M this season while doing absolutely nothing to earn it for AT LEAST half the season, the least he can do is take care of surgery later and rehab his shoulder so that the Sox could possibly get something out of their $8M investment. The fact that Curt wanted to have surgery after signing for $8M makes HIM selfish, not the Red Sox. I'm sure the Red Sox would have been more than happy to let Curt do whatever the hell he wanted if he gave back the money for which he signed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Listen. Curt had NO shot at playing again without the surgery. None. With the surgery there was a shot that he'd be ready by the end of the yr. Theo thought that the docs were wrong. That Curt had the ability to overcome another major injury through perseverance and grit to pitch the sox to another WS. Well, this is the first major arm injury in his career since he became Curt Schilling (he did have labrum surgery as a rook). There wasnt a precedent here. I said it at the beginning of the yr and I reiterate it now. Theo thought he knew more about the arm than the docs did. And in doing so, he removed Curt from the future of this team.

 

Without Curt, the sox still have a solid rotation, but having the possibility of Schilling would have helped.

 

Beckett has been dynamite

DiceK has actually been inconsistent but he's been lucky, prior to his last start.

Lester has been solid of late

Wake is wake

Masterson has been solid

Buchholz is ready for another shot

Bowden has been solid

Colon is out with back issues and may be nearing the end of his utility anyway.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Listen. Curt had NO shot at playing again without the surgery. None. With the surgery there was a shot that he'd be ready by the end of the yr. Theo thought that the docs were wrong. That Curt had the ability to overcome another major injury through perseverance and grit to pitch the sox to another WS. Well' date=' this is the first major arm injury in his career since he became Curt Schilling (he did have labrum surgery as a rook). There wasnt a precedent here. I said it at the beginning of the yr and I reiterate it now. Theo thought he knew more about the arm than the docs did. And in doing so, he removed Curt from the future of this team. [/quote']

 

This guy disagreed with your assessment:

 

David W. Altchek, MD

 

Dr. David Altchek is an Attending Orthopaedic Surgeon in the Sports Medicine and Shoulder Service at the Hospital for Special Surgery. He is the Medical Director for the New York Mets. He serves as the North American Medical Director for the Association of Tennis Professionals, which sponsors the men’s professional tennis tour. He is also the Team Physician for the U.S. Davis Cup tennis team. Dr. Altchek is an Associate Professor of Surgery (Orthopaedics) at the Weill Medical College of Cornell University and the author of over 100 articles and book chapters on problems of the shoulder, elbow and knee.

 

http://www.hss.edu/physicians_altchek-david.asp

 

From the New York Times:

 

After Schilling’s problem was diagnosed as a tendon injury, Dr. Thomas Gill, the team physician, recommended rehabilitation. Schilling received a second opinion from Morgan, who thought surgery was a better option. But Dr. David Altchek, the Mets’ team physician, offered a third opinion and agreed with Gill. Morgan said that Schilling’s shoulder had improved through rehab, but that Schilling still had pain in a shoulder tendon.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/sports/baseball/21schilling.html?em&ex=1214193600&en=8068ddd10476c793&ei=5087%0A

 

Schilling was pitching from a mound in early June. Even Frank Morgan acknowledged that his shoulder had improved with rehab--it's just that he didn't appear to be on track to be MLB-ready in time to contribute. As Will Carroll wrote:

 

After a setback in his rehab, Schilling has announced that he'll undergo the surgery that was discussed and decided against at the start of the season. This could well be the last we see of him since, much like John Smoltz, the extensive rehab necessary is going to make it tough for Schilling to return. And for what? Schilling has done everything he can, on and off the field, to build a great performance record and create a reputation that borders on legendary. The course taken with his rehab was appropriate, but I'm sure Dr. Craig Morgan will remind us all of his initial suggestion. I'll remind him that Schilling came around, and that it seemed possible for him to return; it was bad luck and a shoulder that simply couldn't hold together long enough to get him back to the big leagues this time around.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7692

[TheKilo]

ohmygod Jacko that's gotta hurt

[BudLight]

Dr Altcheck also had this to say:

 

 

http://www.hss.edu/newsroom_new-techniques-rotator-cuff-injuries.asp

 

Between three million and four million patients annually see a physician for problems with the rotator cuff, the complex network of muscles and tendons that hold the shoulder in place and enable the arm to rotate. Injuries can be caused by accidents, repetitive use, a bone spur that saws away at muscle, or the aging process.

While many pulls and strains can be managed with physical therapy, anti-inflammatory medications or steroid injections, a torn rotator cuff can't heal on its own without surgery. As a result, chances of a more serious tear increases, leaving surgery as the only option. By some estimates the number of tears requiring surgery could more than double over the next several years to 500,000, as active baby boomers push the limits of their aging bodies

[ORS]

That would be a very valid point if people were talking about his shoulder "healing" through the rehab process. I think they knew surgery would be required, ultimately. The idea was to see if it could be rehabbed enough to pitch some this season prior to going under the knife. The Braves just did the same thing with Smoltz.

 

I reiterate the point I made upthread. It took Clement 1 calendar year to have the surgery and then get to the point where he was throwing BP sessions. Schilling was diagnosed in Jan '08. The idea that the had a chance to pitch in games this year after surgery is fantasy. And given that this is the team that Clement was under contract with, it's no surprise that they wanted him to try an alternative route when he was on a 1-year deal that, according to Curt, was the last of his career.

[BudLight]

That would be a very valid point if people were talking about his shoulder "healing" through the rehab process. I think they knew surgery would be required, ultimately. The idea was to see if it could be rehabbed enough to pitch some this season prior to going under the knife. The Braves just did the same thing with Smoltz.

 

I reiterate the point I made upthread. It took Clement 1 calendar year to have the surgery and then get to the point where he was throwing BP sessions. Schilling was diagnosed in Jan '08. The idea that the had a chance to pitch in games this year after surgery is fantasy. And given that this is the team that Clement was under contract with, it's no surprise that they wanted him to try an alternative route when he was on a 1-year deal that, according to Curt, was the last of his career.

 

I consider it a valid point because this doctor is the one who sided with Gill in recommending rehabilitation, knowing it would not "fix" the problem, only delay the inevitable, surgery. I understand the Red Sox had made an $8M investment in Schilling and wanted to get something out of him this season, however, I have a problem with a front office not taking the overall health of a person into consideration when making those decisions. It's fairly clear that Schilling would have to have surgery in order to fix his shoulder, the rehab was only a short term solution to get him on the mound this season. If this was Lester, Masterson or one of their other young studs would they have handled the situation the same way?

[Jayhawk Bill]

Dr Altcheck also had this to say:

a torn rotator cuff can't heal on its own without surgery.

 

What does that have to do with Curt Schilling? :dunno:

 

Dr. Altchek had full access to all medical reports, x-rays, MRIs, and other tests in making his opinion regarding Schilling's case. Altchek did diagnose rotator cuff involvement:

 

A third doctor, New York Mets team physician Dr. David Altchek, said Schilling had a rotator cuff injury as well as the tendon problem and he felt surgery would sideline the pitcher for the season, according to Morgan.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3383181

 

But Altchek still recommended that Schilling go the rehab route, not the surgery route, demonstrating that he believed that there was no rotator cuff tear that would not respond to rehab. What Altchek DID believe is that Dr. Morgan's recommended surgery, coupled with the rotator cuff issue, would certainly leave Schilling unable to pitch in 2008. (Boston Herald, Feb 8, no longer available via link, original link http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1071967

).

 

But here's the key part, and it's exactly what TheKilo is posting:

 

Under terms of the collective bargaining agreement, the Red Sox have final say over whether the pitcher will or will not have surgery. Based on that, it seems highly unlikely that Schilling would have surgery without club authorization for fear of violating the terms of his contract.

 

Dr. Altchek saw ZERO chance of Schilling's recovering to pitch in 2008 if he had surgery. Schilling had the opportunity to have surgery, regardless, but it would have violated the terms of the contract he'd signed, and it would've probably cost him millions of dollars. Schilling chose rehab and a paycheck. It didn't work; now he's free to have surgery and to compete in the 2009 Free Agent market.

 

But the position that rehab was doomed to failure from the start is a case of 20-20 hindsight, not the opinion of all competent doctors last winter. Dr. Altchek is VERY highly regarded, and he recommended rehab; furthermore, Schilling was pitching from a mound in early June--rehab almost DID work.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I have a problem with a front office not taking the overall health of a person into consideration when making those decisions.

 

Dr. Altchek is not a member of the Red Sox Front Office. He was an independent party brought into the situation to provide an expert, neutral third opinion. His opinion was that rehab, not surgery, was called for.

 

Curt Schilling may, if he chooses, sue Dr. Altchek. I haven't heard that he's doing that. Barring such a suit against Dr. Altchek, I consider allegations against the Red Sox Front Office uncalled-for. They didn't force their ideas upon Schilling; they got an independent third expert opinion to resolve the difference between the team physician and the personal physician.

[Gom]

Listen. Curt had NO shot at playing again without the surgery. None. With the surgery there was a shot that he'd be ready by the end of the yr. Theo thought that the docs were wrong.

Exactly, and like I had said at the beginning of the season. No different than Papelbon and the idiocy here that had some believing that there was/is more strain on a reliever than there is for a starter.

 

I will forever hate you Curt Schilling. I will also always respect you as one of the best opponents the Yankees ever had, and one of the few, the very few, that came out on top against us, and not just once. Good luck to you.

[rician blast]

Dr. Altchek is not a member of the Red Sox Front Office. He was an independent party brought into the situation to provide an expert, neutral third opinion. His opinion was that rehab, not surgery, was called for.

 

Curt Schilling may, if he chooses, sue Dr. Altchek. I haven't heard that he's doing that. Barring such a suit against Dr. Altchek, I consider allegations against the Red Sox Front Office uncalled-for. They didn't force their ideas upon Schilling; they got an independent third expert opinion to resolve the difference between the team physician and the personal physician.

 

 

Good post.

 

Meanwhile, Curt continues to cash checks as he collects his $8m. IMO, the Sox did what an organization paying out $8m should do...try to get some return on their investment.

[BudLight]

Dr. Altchek is not a member of the Red Sox Front Office. He was an independent party brought into the situation to provide an expert, neutral third opinion. His opinion was that rehab, not surgery, was called for.

 

Curt Schilling may, if he chooses, sue Dr. Altchek. I haven't heard that he's doing that. Barring such a suit against Dr. Altchek, I consider allegations against the Red Sox Front Office uncalled-for. They didn't force their ideas upon Schilling; they got an independent third expert opinion to resolve the difference between the team physician and the personal physician.

 

I never stated Altchek was a member of the Red Sox front office. The Red Sox front office disagreed with surgery for Schilling based on Dr Gill's initial diagnosis, tendon issues. Dr Morgan, who had performed surgery on Schilling earlier in his career recommended surgery. Due to the disagreement a second opinion to Gill's recommendation was needed according to the CBA. Schilling was provided a list of doctor's, by the Sox FO, and picked Altchek. Altchek was the first doctor to state in addition to the tendon injury there was an injury to the rotator cuff. I refer back to Altchek's article relating to rotator cuff injuries and the need for surgery. To state that Altchek is an independent expert IMHO, is a stretch. Morgan would be more independent than Altchek, his name didn't appear on the list provided by the Sox to Schilling.

[rician blast]

With surgery Schilling likely doesn't pitch in 2008.

With rehab, he likely doesn't pitch in '08, but there was a glimmer of hope.

 

So what damage has been done, other than the Sox paying him $8.0m for nothing?

 

If Curt wants to continue his career, can't he have it done now, start rehabbing over the winter and maybe pitch for someone in 2009?

[BoSox21]

it has already come out that if Curt chooses to not retire, the earliest he will come back is after the 2009 All-Star Break. So that being said, if Curt had the surgery in ST, there was NO chance he was going to pitch this year

[rician blast]

So the "cost" to Curt was that, had he undergone surgery in the spring, he'd have been potentially able to pitch early 2009.

 

I suppose that might be enough of an issue to result in some resonating frustration for Schilling. On the other hand, as I've said before, he did get $8m for his trouble.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I never stated Altchek was a member of the Red Sox front office.

 

What you did say, and then conveniently left out of your response, was:

 

I have a problem with a front office not taking the overall health of a person into consideration when making those decisions.

 

The decision to forgo surgery was made by an independent third party expert in accordance with Article XIII and Attachment 35 of the Basic Agreement. The decision was made by Dr. Altchek. The FO agreed, prior to Dr. Altchek rendering an opinion, that they would agree with his decision. Dr. Altchek is as liable as any other doctor when rendering a professional opinion--he would not jeopardize his career to recommend rehab were it not a reasonable best course of action.

 

Your allegation that the FO didn't take Schilling's overall health into consideration is groundless. They deferred to Dr. Altman. Call Dr. Altman incompetent or corrupt, or give it up...but don't blame the FO.

 

Morgan would be more independent than Altchek, his name didn't appear on the list provided by the Sox to Schilling.

 

Dr. Morgan would in no way be "more independent" than Dr. Altman. Dr. Altman was mutually agreed to by both the Red Sox and Curt Schilling in complete accordance with CBA rules. Dr. Morgan was hired by Schilling without consultation with the Red Sox.

[BudLight]

What you did say, and then conveniently left out of your response, was:

 

 

Quote:

I have a problem with a front office not taking the overall health of a person into consideration when making those decisions.

 

 

No intentional ommision - what I'm saying is, Schilling missed 7 weeks in 2007 due to shoulder problems, although he passed his physical and MRI in November 2008 the club only offered him a base $8M salary with $5M in incentives, couple this with his age and the expectation that 2008 would have been his last year in active baseball as a pitcher, the club could have done more to ensure his long term health (surgery) as opposed to his short term health (rehab).

 

The decision to forgo surgery was made by an independent third party expert in accordance with Article XIII and Attachment 35 of the Basic Agreement. The decision was made by Dr. Altchek. The FO agreed, prior to Dr. Altchek rendering an opinion, that they would agree with his decision. Dr. Altchek is as liable as any other doctor when rendering a professional opinion--he would not jeopardize his career to recommend rehab were it not a reasonable best course of action.

 

Your allegation that the FO didn't take Schilling's overall health into consideration is groundless. They deferred to Dr. Altman. Call Dr. Altman incompetent or corrupt, or give it up...but don't blame the FO.

 

Not incompetent or corrupt just a bit inconsistent. Altchek was the first of the three doctors (Gill, Morgan, Altchek) to stated in addition to the tendon injury there was also a rotator cuff injury. The article I provided earlier regarding the need for surgery for rotator cuff injuries, according to Dr Altchek, is inconsistent with his recommendation for rehabilitation.

[CrespoBlows]

Exactly, and like I had said at the beginning of the season. No different than Papelbon and the idiocy here that had some believing that there was/is more strain on a reliever than there is for a starter.

 

 

You've been proven wrong on this.

[jacksonianmarch]

What you did say, and then conveniently left out of your response, was:

 

 

Quote:

I have a problem with a front office not taking the overall health of a person into consideration when making those decisions.

 

 

No intentional ommision - what I'm saying is, Schilling missed 7 weeks in 2007 due to shoulder problems, although he passed his physical and MRI in November 2008 the club only offered him a base $8M salary with $5M in incentives, couple this with his age and the expectation that 2008 would have been his last year in active baseball as a pitcher, the club could have done more to ensure his long term health (surgery) as opposed to his short term health (rehab).

 

The decision to forgo surgery was made by an independent third party expert in accordance with Article XIII and Attachment 35 of the Basic Agreement. The decision was made by Dr. Altchek. The FO agreed, prior to Dr. Altchek rendering an opinion, that they would agree with his decision. Dr. Altchek is as liable as any other doctor when rendering a professional opinion--he would not jeopardize his career to recommend rehab were it not a reasonable best course of action.

 

Your allegation that the FO didn't take Schilling's overall health into consideration is groundless. They deferred to Dr. Altman. Call Dr. Altman incompetent or corrupt, or give it up...but don't blame the FO.

 

Not incompetent or corrupt just a bit inconsistent. Altchek was the first of the three doctors (Gill, Morgan, Altchek) to stated in addition to the tendon injury there was also a rotator cuff injury. The article I provided earlier regarding the need for surgery for rotator cuff injuries, according to Dr Altchek, is inconsistent with his recommendation for rehabilitation.

 

You dont think there was any coercion involved here? Don't think that some docs are immune to it. Hey, here's a boatload of cash to evaluate this player. How bout you say X,Y,and Z and make is sound like he can come back. Deal? I work with orthopods on a daily basis and every now and then see a sports medicine doc. Every single one of them said that the injury described was impossible to rehab and get back to full strength. And for an athlete who is already in declining physical condition to suffer an injury that may leave their arm at 50% or less, the chance of him being anything more than a roadie was zero. When you have frayed your bicep tendon to the point of it being split into multiple strands at the insertion point, you take away a large amount of its strength as well as generate a lot of pain. You also potential small tears every time you use the muscle. So not only is he dealing with a painful, weaker tendon. It is getting more painful and more weak every time he threw. he had no shot.

[jacksonianmarch]

That would be a very valid point if people were talking about his shoulder "healing" through the rehab process. I think they knew surgery would be required, ultimately. The idea was to see if it could be rehabbed enough to pitch some this season prior to going under the knife. The Braves just did the same thing with Smoltz.

 

I reiterate the point I made upthread. It took Clement 1 calendar year to have the surgery and then get to the point where he was throwing BP sessions. Schilling was diagnosed in Jan '08. The idea that the had a chance to pitch in games this year after surgery is fantasy. And given that this is the team that Clement was under contract with, it's no surprise that they wanted him to try an alternative route when he was on a 1-year deal that, according to Curt, was the last of his career.

 

Clement had rotator cuff surgery if I am not mistaken. The bicep tendon is not part of the rotator cuff, although one of the heads does sit inside the shoulder capsule. I am unsure which bicep head he is having repaired. If it is the bicep head that sits in the bicipital groove on the humerus, they may not have had to enter the capsule. If it is the one that inserts on the head of the humerus, then it would be one hell of a procedure, and no, he likely wouldnt have been ready. Then again, I am not an orthopod, but the anatomy would make one more difficult than the other.

[jacksonianmarch]

he was able to get back on a mound. So thats the retort here to him almost making it. He was able to throw at half speed and that is nearly making it? Cmon now. Nearly making it is getting into a few rehab starts and shutting it down. He wasnt even close to making it back.

[rician blast]

Here is how I see it:

 

Sox invested $8m in him. Schill comes up lame. They want to get some production outta him and the only possible way is by having him rehab the shoulder and hopefully competing towards year end. If it doesn't happen, the team is no worse off than if he'd gotten surgery to begin with. Schilling is only impacted by the 6 months gone by since the time he could have had surger, it's not like his arm needs to be amputated now because he threw a bit.

 

What some of you folks seem to be saying is that the Sox had an obligation to forego any return on their investment by handing him his $8m and shutting him down so that he could get surgery immediately and potentially sign elsewhere in the future.

 

What about the FO obligation to the Sox ownership group, it's players and it's fans to put the best possible team on the field?

 

If the Sox front office was manipulating him, Schill could have said FU and gone the surgery route anyway, and gave his $8m back.

[BoSox21]

I agree that considering the investment the Sox made in Schilling, they deserved to see if the injury could have healed through rehab but I still don't see how Schilling passed a physical prior to signing the contract

[Jayhawk Bill]

The article I provided earlier regarding the need for surgery for rotator cuff injuries' date=' according to Dr Altchek, is inconsistent with his recommendation for rehabilitation.[/quote']

 

No, Dr. Altchek was referring to rotator cuff tears, not all rotator cuff injuries.

 

If were as simple as you suggest, Dr. Altman would already be facing suit for malpractice.

 

*****************************************************

 

he was able to get back on a mound. So thats the retort here to him almost making it. He was able to throw at half speed and that is nearly making it? Cmon now. Nearly making it is getting into a few rehab starts and shutting it down. He wasnt even close to making it back.

 

Hey, great, you know that he was only throwing half speed! Could you share the actual reference with those radar gun velocities?

 

See, from what I read, he was two outings away from pitching to batters

 

BOSTON -- Curt Schilling threw 40 pitches off the mound today, and while there didn't seem to be any physical problems, the veteran right-hander was not happy with his command, said manager Terry Francona.

 

"The good news is he's ramping it up," said Francona.

 

The plan for Schilling is to for him to throw again off the mound on Friday in Cincinnati, and the step after that, if all was progressing as the Sox hope, would be for him to face hitters.

 

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20080611_matsuzaka_and_schilling.1d32633b.html

 

when he ran into discomfort. It didn't seem that bad

 

Threw 40 pitches off the mound yesterday. Wasn’t a great day and didn’t feel all that well but I am writing that off as just an off day or bad day, which I guess is all part of the rehab thing. Plan is to throw again Friday and gear up to face hitters at some point late next week if everything stays on schedule.

 

http://38pitches.com/2008/06/11/38-studios-redesign/

 

and things still looked good

 

BOSTON -- The fact that Curt Schilling was so self-critical during a side session as he was on Tuesday could be the best indicator yet of how far he has progressed in his recovery from a right biceps injury.

 

A couple of weeks ago, the Boston right-hander wasn't even permitted to throw off of a mound. He did so for the third time on Tuesday, ramping up to 40 pitches in the process. Pitching coach John Farrell monitored the session.

 

"I think today was one of those days where, the closer he gets to pitching, he wants to be perfect," said Red Sox manager Terry Francona. "Today, he wasn't. Flat ground he was great, from what John says. From off the mound, it was one of those days he wanted to be better than he was. How many times have you heard us say that about Schill? The good news is, he's ramping it up. He just wants to be perfect, and that's probably not going to happen."

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080610&content_id=2882634&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

Even after that, there was reason to doubt that he absolutely needed surgery. From June 17:

 

Rehabs sound like slow progressions most of the time, as a player makes a slow and steady move from injured to healthy. However, it's seldom actually that simple. Instead, recovery comes in fits and starts, especially for pitchers that are struggling to build up their stamina and strength. Setbacks don't just happen, they're common, even expected. Certainly you'd rather they didn't happen, but they're part of the process and the timeline in most situations. Medical staffs work on minimizing them, making sure that the setback is just that rather than something more that needs to be corrected. So all of that said, the setback that has Schilling "on hold" according to Terry Francona is both a big deal and not a big deal. The setback itself isn't that big, but Schilling's response to it will be. Thinking of it as a plateau makes more sense than a real setback. Schilling will need to have a couple of more bullpen sessions, including some good ones, before he starts facing hitters. The All-Star break remains a possibility, but it's more at the front end of the expectation now than the target.

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7676

 

It is remarkable that Schilling went through all of this, with so much optimism until just a couple of days ago, and he was only throwing 46 mph, tops--but, hey, Jacko, you say he was throwing half speed.

 

I'm sure you have some reference you could cite where you read that...don't you?

[VA Sox Fan]

No major rotator cuff damage for Schill

 

Posted by Amalie Benjamin, Globe Staff June 23, 2008 04:39 PM

 

Just got off the phone with Dr. Craig Morgan, the doctor who performed Curt Schilling's surgery this afternoon. He got finished with the procedure about 45 minutes ago (just before 4 p.m.). He said the surgery, and what was found inside the shoulder, was about as good as they could have hoped.

 

Morgan was planning on performing biceps tenodesis surgery, in which the biceps is moved outside the the shoulder into a hole in the bone where the diseased tendon can repair itself. That surgery went as planned.

 

But the major questions were about the labrum and, especially, the rotator cuff. Morgan said the rotator cuff had an usual tear, but not a major one.

 

"The status of the rotator cuff was much better than was predicted," Morgan said. "He did have disease in the biceps tendon, that was his major problem. We transferred the biceps tendon.

 

"[He had an] unusual tear of the rotator cuff, small partial thickness, no separation from the bone. Small undersurface tear.

 

"What we didn't want to find is a big rotator cuff tear, because that's a long rehab."

 

That was fixed, with just a single stitch. The labrum tear was also repaired.

 

As for his prognosis, it could be as soon as four months, Morgan said. The rehab for the labrum tear is very similar to the one for the biceps issue, which means that his rehab won't be significantly altered, even though they had to repair an additional problem during today's surgery.

 

"About four months to a throwing program, if he decides he wants to pursue that," Morgan said. "The rehab after this will be very similar to the rehab that he went through in 1995 when he had the SLAP [surgery to repair a labral tear and to remove a bone spur]. But he was 28 then, he's 41 now. We don't have anything to fix that one."

[Jayhawk Bill]

Hmmmm...

 

...unusual tear of the rotator cuff, small partial thickness, no separation from the bone. Small undersurface tear.

 

Guess we'll have to see if Schilling sues Dr. Altchek.

[jacksonianmarch]

No, Dr. Altchek was referring to rotator cuff tears, not all rotator cuff injuries.

 

If were as simple as you suggest, Dr. Altman would already be facing suit for malpractice.

 

*****************************************************

 

 

 

Hey, great, you know that he was only throwing half speed! Could you share the actual reference with those radar gun velocities?

 

See, from what I read, he was two outings away from pitching to batters

 

 

 

http://www.projo.com/redsox/content/projo_20080611_matsuzaka_and_schilling.1d32633b.html

 

when he ran into discomfort. It didn't seem that bad

 

 

 

http://38pitches.com/2008/06/11/38-studios-redesign/

 

and things still looked good

 

 

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080610&content_id=2882634&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

 

Even after that, there was reason to doubt that he absolutely needed surgery. From June 17:

 

 

 

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=7676

 

It is remarkable that Schilling went through all of this, with so much optimism until just a couple of days ago, and he was only throwing 46 mph, tops--but, hey, Jacko, you say he was throwing half speed.

 

I'm sure you have some reference you could cite where you read that...don't you?

 

 

anybody with an ounce of intelligence knows that throwing at 50% doesnt mean they are throwing at 50% their velocity. It is 50% effort, ie, you arent going all out.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hmmmm...

 

 

Guess we'll have to see if Schilling sues Dr. Altchek.

 

Einstein, it wasnt the rotator cuff that was the issue. It was the bicep tendon that I was commenting on. A frayed biceps tendon that had to be repaired is not something you can pitch at full speed with. Schilling proved that.