Kennedy and Hughes out....Cashman next.

[Gom]

Cashman pinned his hopes and his job on two young pitchers that nearly everyone here was ripping me for saying they should be traded [at least one of them] for Santana.

 

Now that the two pitchers are in the minors and won't be seen anytime soon, it's time to take to task the man who has killed the Yankees. Cashman. Cashman took over from Watson and rode the coat tails of a phenomenal team to "win" 3 World Series in which he had little to do with. Since 2000, he hasn't done anything of significance.

 

Even this off-season, Gene Michael, who is in my opinion the absolute best person in the Yankee front office that I've seen in my tenure as a Yankee fan, said you have to make the deal for Santana. No question about it.

 

Here's hoping the Steinbrenners realize that the best person they have in running the team [Gene Michael] is playing fiddle to an idiot who wouldn't understand a baseball if you shoved it up his ass [brian Cashman].

 

Memo to Jacko: The Yankees overhype their prospects. Consider it a lesson learned. Hope you practice medicine better than you evaluate pitchers. :thumbsup:

[yeszir]

Yankee fan fight! Yankee fan fight!

[26 Reasons to Hate Us]

Try to have some foresight Gom. It's one month into first season after the Santana no-trade. Of course it's going to look like trading for Santana was the best move as he continues to dominate and the rookies go through the growing pains. How is it going to look in the next 2-6 years when some or all of the rookies are hitting their stride, and the Mets are stuck paying Santana 20+M a year, praying his arm doesn't fall off?

[Jayhawk Bill]

Cashman pinned his hopes and his job on two young pitchers that nearly everyone here was ripping me for saying they should be traded [at least one of them] for Santana.

 

I was really eager for the Yankees to execute the Santana trade. I'm sorry that they didn't.

 

Of course, I want the Yankees to lose.

 

IIRC, the rumored demand from Minnesota was Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy. My recollection is that I maintained that Ian Kennedy sucked (career potential fourth starter at best), but that Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera were more valuable than Johan Santana.

 

Fast forward to May 5th.

 

Ian Kennedy sucks. Score one.

 

Phil Hughes was pitching with a cracked rib. The rumor I've heard is that he cracked the rib while he wasn't pitching. That actually makes sense, especially given that it's not a first rib. Hughes had a great first start, allowing two runs in six innings vs. Toronto for the win. After that he's had an absurdly bad 11.25 ERA, almost double what you'd expect from an average replacement-level pitcher. Hughes is better than replacement-level: we just don't know how much better yet. If he allowing an 11.25 ERA and a cracked rib shows up, though, one can believe that there's a correlation. No score yet on Hughes.

 

Melky Cabrera is leading the New York Yankees--the team of All Star sluggers--in home runs, and batting over .290, while playing a good defensive center field. It appears that he's found his power, as I'd suggested that he would. Score one more...that's two.

 

Johan Santana...well, he's 3-2 with a 2.91 ERA and an xFIP to match (3.07). He's the 13th-best pitcher in MLB by VORP this morning. That looks really good, but consider these factors:

 

1) Offense is down in 2008. That 2.91 ERA is an ERA+ of just 138, barely better than his 2006 ERA+ of 130 and much worse than his ERA+ from every year between 2002 and 2006.

 

2) That doesn't consider his AL-to-NL move. Given the league differences, an ERA+ of 138 in the NL might translate to something in the range of a 125 ERA+ in the AL. That's still very good for a starting pitcher, but it's less good than Santana ever was with the Twins.

 

3) Santana couldn't hit 92 mph his last time out (I checked Pitch f/x). Remember Buster Olney on ESPN Insider writing that Santana's velocity was off in his last seven starts of 2007? He hasn't regained his 94-96mph fastball. That suggests injury.

 

4) Santana is signed through the 2013 season at a total of $137.5 million, plus either a $5.5 million buyout or a $25 million contract year in 2014. That's A LOT of money, even for the Yankees.

 

We'll see...too early to score.

 

***

 

I claim a 2-0 score in my favor so far in assessing the potential trade. Even with Hughes on the DL and Kennedy in AAA, I'm sorry that the Yankees didn't make the deal. :dunno:

[26 to 6]

Come one Gom, Cash has made some real good deals throughout his tenure. Granted, he's also made some bad ones as well, but thats the way things go when you have practically no budget and can afford to play with the houses money. As for the Santana deal, I was against it all winter simply because I didnt want to lose Phil Hughes and Melky. I dont give a s*** about Kennedy, have never liked him, and predict he won't have the brightest of careers. When it came out later that Santana could have been had with Kennedy in the deal and not Hughes, I guess I would have thought it was a good deal, but was still indifferent because of Melky. Ultimately, when the deal was not made I wasn't complaining. The price, both financially and in what we would have had to trade was just too much. It's nice to second guess, but I think the Yankees did what they thought was best and I can't blame them for that. As for Phil Hughes, we've seen him and how dominant he can be throughout his entire pro career. In his Major League appearances last year he was spectacular, especially in Game 3. I was at hi first start this year where he was good, and of course have witnessed his colossal downfall since. You and I have talked about this many times before, and I dont see how you can be so down on Hughes after a bad month in which we find out he was pitching with eye problems and a cracked rib. Totally disregarding his past successes. A little rash, IMO. I have nothing to say in defense of Kennedy, so you can rip him all u want, especially after hearing what he had to say upon his demotion, but lets give Phil some time. Lets give him a chance to see how he's doing a month or so after he gets back.Let's be fair. Cano struggled initially when he came up in 2005, look what happened. Melky was about to be crucified after his mis-play in '05 and the error in his first game in '06, but look at him. These are young athletes. Demanding immediate perfection jut isn't practical. Patience my friend, patience.

 

As for Ca$h-money, he may very well be gone after this year. I don't say that I'm discontent with any of the work he's done, because for the bad decisions he's made, he has a bunch of good ones to balance that with. But I think this new regime is too much for him. The status quo has changed. The organizational structure is much different than it has been the past decade since he's been GM. On-field, in the owner's box, in the front office, down on the farm..everything is different. We have to see how all of that plays out with him this year. If he doesn't want to come back, I can definitely see him with say the Phillies for instance next year.

[Mr Crunchy]

i think the pressure on hughes and kennedy has been expanded due to the trade rumors with santana and the fact that the sox youngsters have stepped up while fredo steinbrenner does the lithium shuffle wondering why joba chamberlain cant bat cleanup while starting every other game.

the yanks have hit stride about the same time offensively as we have but over the long haul our staff is deeper and more consistant and should hold out.

hughes broke a rib but nobody knows how?

its murder to cough with a broken rib but to pitch it must be brutality.

maybe he needs geritol or perhaps some type of female osteo supplement for his brittleness,didnt he spend some time on the dl last year for a bone break of somekind in his leg??

anyway

as far as cant miss goes its just not in stone

the boy may have the most talent of any young arm in the game but the blossoming of young pitchers is a delicate road to travel and the bronx a hard place to find sympathy if the guy you were to be dealt for is pitching well in queens...

he may be in oakland in august if he doesnt perform

the idea of the ny media and the steinbrenners being patient with phil hughes is pure fantasy

the average ny baseball fan has the attention span of pocket lint and after 13 years of making the playoffs they may not be able to handle finishing out of the running as phil hughes learns the ropes while taking the lumps that go with it...

[Hammer]

yo crunchy,

what did we use to sing???

 

do dah

do dah

 

bwahahahahahaha!! omg what will hank do if the friggin d rays come in ahead of the spankme's??????

 

gak, urp,,,,,oy!

[Gom]

Cashman has no idea about pitching. Zero. Worse than zero.

 

Yankees had a chance at Beckett and Pedro. He took Pavano.

 

He could have had Lilly instead of Igawa. Lilly was dying to come to New York.

 

Could have had Dice-K instead of Igawa.

 

Signed Farnsworth.

 

Could have traded for Santana.

 

Signed Contreras.

 

Acquired Loiaza.

 

Exactly who has he picked up as a lefty in the pen in the last ten years?

 

Kevin Brown.

 

Jeff Weaver.

 

Randy Johnson.

 

Got Vazquez. Traded away Vazquez. Then he got better.

 

Picked Ohlendorf over Micah Owings. He had his PICK. f***ed that one up too.

 

You want to seriously know how I knew that the Santana deal would haunt the Yankees?

 

Because Cashman didn't get him. He can't figure it out. He doesn't have an eye for the game, because he didn't even play wiffleball growing up.

 

STOP READING PRESS CLIPPINGS. WATCH THE DAMN GAME.

 

I hope to death I'm wrong. I just don't see what to like. Hughes has a power pitcher's control..but not a power pitcher's arm. He has a slow, sweeping curve, but has difficulty locating it.

 

Kennedy throws an 88-89 MPH fastball. Control is not there. Doesn't have a strong secondary pitch. Don't see how this kid will succeed.

 

There is a saying from baseball scouts about Yankee prospects. The closer they get to the major league level, the less the Yankees like them. If you want the wool pulled over your eyes, your choice. Not me.

[Remember the Titans]

u kno theirs thiz rly good pitcher at the aaa level. hiz name is thumper. perhaps cash shud sign him?

[The Dustball]

Kennedy actually pitched really well tonight in his first start since being demoted 7IP 1 Hit and No runs. Maybe he just can't handle the pressure in NY

[26 to 6]

Cashman has no idea about pitching. Zero. Worse than zero.

 

Yankees had a chance at Beckett and Pedro. He took Pavano.

 

He could have had Lilly instead of Igawa. Lilly was dying to come to New York.

 

Could have had Dice-K instead of Igawa.

 

Signed Farnsworth.

 

Could have traded for Santana.

 

Signed Contreras.

 

Acquired Loiaza.

 

Exactly who has he picked up as a lefty in the pen in the last ten years?

 

Kevin Brown.

 

Jeff Weaver.

 

Randy Johnson.

 

Got Vazquez. Traded away Vazquez. Then he got better.

 

Picked Ohlendorf over Micah Owings. He had his PICK. f***ed that one up too.

 

You want to seriously know how I knew that the Santana deal would haunt the Yankees?

 

Because Cashman didn't get him. He can't figure it out. He doesn't have an eye for the game, because he didn't even play wiffleball growing up.

 

STOP READING PRESS CLIPPINGS. WATCH THE DAMN GAME.

 

I hope to death I'm wrong. I just don't see what to like. Hughes has a power pitcher's control..but not a power pitcher's arm. He has a slow, sweeping curve, but has difficulty locating it.

 

Kennedy throws an 88-89 MPH fastball. Control is not there. Doesn't have a strong secondary pitch. Don't see how this kid will succeed.

 

There is a saying from baseball scouts about Yankee prospects. The closer they get to the major league level, the less the Yankees like them. If you want the wool pulled over your eyes, your choice. Not me.

Kevin Brown for Jeff Weaver was a good trade. It worke out well the first year, but then it went downhill. But you can't blame him for making that trade, Weaver had to go.

 

You can't blame him for getting Weaver with what he was projected to be coming up with Detroit.

 

Randy Johnson was a George-inspired thing. They needed him at the deadline in 2004, couldnt get him, so they had no choice in the offseason what with al themedia hype and daily developments heading up to the deadline. It didnt work out well, which probably was proected by some, but if you have a hance to get Randy Johnson you do it. I do think it's unfortunate that they gave up on Vaz so quickly. He should have had more than 1 season in pinstripe. That was the cost though.

 

I agree with you on Contreras for Loaiza.

 

Signing Contreras wasn't a bad move, he just couldn't stomach it initially and they gave up on him. Even the Red Sox went hard after him.

 

Kyle Farnsworth was going into the season a great pickup, an upgrade over Tom Gordon who was great as the setup guy here. Unfortunately some guys can't adjust to New York well, it happens. But it wasn't a bad decision. And now he's even started to be pretty good.

 

Are you kidding me with Pedro? I wasn't opposed to the signing of him, and there was even that rumor at one point that he and the Yanks were close on a 4 year, $50 Mil deal. But financially it would have hurt, and look just how much time he's been out injured since being with the Mets. Can't blame him for not making that commitment.

 

As for Dice-K, the Yanks made an effort. Unfortunately is wasn't as high as the Mets and Sox, but still, their offer was higher than any previous bid ever made on the NPB posting market. Because of Dice-K the posting prices skyrocketed...for all of the non Free-Agent Japanese players since. He did those NPB owners a favor. But don't get down on the Yanks for that, their offer was competitive.

 

As for lefties....Jesse Orrosco? hahah

I do remember Cash pulling hard for Sauerbeck in 203, who AT THE TIME was a good pickup, but there's nothing he could have done about the Sox trading #1 prospect Freddy Sanchez for a middle-inning lefty.

 

 

I'm with you man and I understand your frustrations. Most of them we'rent bad decisions, granted some were, but most of them just didn't work out as expected. Whaddya gonna do? But hindsight is nice, right?

 

Hopefully Hughes can turn it around and be himself and we can move Kennedy in a good deal.

[ARod2212]

IT'S MAY f***ING 7TH.

[Remember the Titans]

IT'S MAY f***ING 7TH.

 

Kevin Brown for Jeff Weaver was a good trade. It worke out well the first year, but then it went downhill. But you can't blame him for making that trade, Weaver had to go.

 

You can't blame him for getting Weaver with what he was projected to be coming up with Detroit.

 

Randy Johnson was a George-inspired thing. They needed him at the deadline in 2004, couldnt get him, so they had no choice in the offseason what with al themedia hype and daily developments heading up to the deadline. It didnt work out well, which probably was proected by some, but if you have a hance to get Randy Johnson you do it. I do think it's unfortunate that they gave up on Vaz so quickly. He should have had more than 1 season in pinstripe. That was the cost though.

 

I agree with you on Contreras for Loaiza.

 

Signing Contreras wasn't a bad move, eh just couldn't stomach it initially and they gave up on him. Even the Red Sox went hard after him.

 

Kyle Farnsworth was going into the season a great pickup, an upgrade over Tom Gordon who was great as the setup guy here. Unfortunately some guys can't adjust to New York well, it happens. But it wasn't a bad decision. And now he's even started to be pretty good.

 

Are you kidding me with Pedro? I wasn't opposed to the signing of him, and there was even that rumor at one point that he and the Yanks were close on a 4 year, $50 Mil deal. But financially it would have hurt, and look just how much time he's been out injured since being with the Mets. Can't blame him for not making that commitment.

 

As for Dice-K, the Yanks made an effort. Unfortunately is wasn't as high as the Mets and Sox, but still, their offer was higher than any previous bid ever made on the NPB posting market. Because of Dice-K the posting prices skyrocketed...for all of the non Free-Agent Japanese players since. He did those NPB owners a favor. But get don on the Yanks for that, their offer was competitive.

 

As for lefties....Jesse Orrosco? hahah

 

 

I'm with you man and I understand your frustrations. Most of them we'rent bad decisions, granted some were, but most of them just didn't work out as expected. Whaddya gonna do? But hindsight is nice, right?

 

Hopefully Hughes can turn it around and be himself and we can move Kennedy in a good deal.

 

wut do u guis think bout the thump pitchin' 4 u all? he sayz he wood turn down a contract from the skanks but i dunno?

[ARod2212]

Hughes has been pitching with a cracked rib. How quickly can you forget how good he looked relieving Clemens in Game 3 last year? Hughes will be fine.

 

Kennedy just threw 7.1 shutout innings in AAA, allowing 1 hit and striking out 8 and walking nobody. Yeah, there's absolutely no way he can succeed at the big league level. Calm the f*** down. Hughes is 21 years old. Kennedy is 23. Give them a chance to pitch.

[Gom]

Oh my goodness.

 

You know why players can do well in AAA?

 

Because anyone who is any good is in the majors.

 

Look, I think Kennedy will have a Scott Kamenicki or Dave Lapoint kind of career. Serviceable. But we had a chance at the best pitcher in the game for this guy.

 

Now, as a GM, making a mil a year...you are supposed to be able to analyze pitching. This guy hasn't, because all he does is read scouting reports and punch in numbers. He doesn't have a feel for it. It's much easier to predict hitters than pitchers, but all it takes is number crunching. Finding pitching talent is another thing altogether.

 

Go check out my post about fixing up the Yankees I made last offseason. By no means am I an expert on pitching [my baseball stopped at high school], but I would have done a shitload better job than this moron.

 

Someone here who is a Hughes/Kennedy lover....please...enlighten me. Just what do you see about these guys you love?

Hughes is 21 years old. Kennedy is 23. Give them a chance to pitch.

Umm...isn't that what they did? I pray to God they get their chance. Next spring training. We would have been playing the Red Sox at home if we didn't blow at the beginning of the season last year. Enough with the youthful circle jerk.

[ARod2212]

Cashman has no idea about pitching. Zero. Worse than zero.

 

Yankees had a chance at Beckett and Pedro. He took Pavano.

 

He could have had Lilly instead of Igawa. Lilly was dying to come to New York.

 

Could have had Dice-K instead of Igawa.

 

Signed Farnsworth.

 

Could have traded for Santana.

 

Signed Contreras.

 

Acquired Loiaza.

 

Exactly who has he picked up as a lefty in the pen in the last ten years?

 

Kevin Brown.

 

Jeff Weaver.

 

Randy Johnson.

 

Got Vazquez. Traded away Vazquez. Then he got better.

 

Picked Ohlendorf over Micah Owings. He had his PICK. f***ed that one up too.

 

You want to seriously know how I knew that the Santana deal would haunt the Yankees?

 

Because Cashman didn't get him. He can't figure it out. He doesn't have an eye for the game, because he didn't even play wiffleball growing up.

 

STOP READING PRESS CLIPPINGS. WATCH THE DAMN GAME.

 

I hope to death I'm wrong. I just don't see what to like. Hughes has a power pitcher's control..but not a power pitcher's arm. He has a slow, sweeping curve, but has difficulty locating it.

 

Kennedy throws an 88-89 MPH fastball. Control is not there. Doesn't have a strong secondary pitch. Don't see how this kid will succeed.

 

There is a saying from baseball scouts about Yankee prospects. The closer they get to the major league level, the less the Yankees like them. If you want the wool pulled over your eyes, your choice. Not me.

 

Beckett would come in a trade. Pedro was finished in the American league, and has been continually hurt. Pavano was a free agent. You're comparing apples and light bulbs.

 

Lilly sucks. Igawa sucks. I don't see the difference.

 

He couldn't have had Matsuzaka. The Red Sox ridiculously overbid for his services. It wasn't a matter of Cashman being "afraid to pull the trigger." Shut up.

 

Signed Farnsworth. Listen, I'm the first guy to get on Farnsworth's case, but who else was he supposed to sign? They needed an arm for the bullpen. It's not like he passed up on Joe Nathan to sign Farnsworth. He got one of the best guys available in a weak market. If you haven't noticed, he's tried to stockpile arms to turn into relievers from within the last few years. But no, he has no eye for pitching.

 

Could have given up the farm and millions of dollars for Santana. I'm not faulting him for that.

 

What lefty has anyone picked up over the last 10 years? Seriously, how is he supposed to get these people? Is he supposed to wave a magic wand and force Mike Gonzalez into the Yankee bullpen? If teams aren't offering these players, they're not going to get them. If nobody is a good free agent lefty, what is Cashman supposed to do?

 

Brown was an upgrade over Weaver, who could not handle New York. Brown was decent, got old and that was it. Jeff Weaver would have been terrible with this team, so I don't see how you can fault him for being dealt.

 

Cashman acquired Weaver in 2002. Weaver's line with Detroit at the time of the trade- 121 innings, 112 hits, 4 HRs, 3.18 ERA, 33 BB, 75 Ks. Yeah, why would you make a move for a guy like that. No eye for talent, I'm telling you. Weaver's problem is that he's a headcase, something that doesn't come out when you're pitching on a terrible Tigers team, but gets magnified in New York. Shame on Cashman for not being able to see that.

 

Randy Johnson was a Steinbrenner move, and everyone knows that. Even if it wasn't his numbers the year before we acquired him are ridiculous. 245 innings, 290 Ks, 177 hits, 2.60 ERA, 0.90 WHIP. Oh yeah, and he was Randy f***ing Johnson. Hindsight sure is good, isn't it? (Also, good to forget that Johnson went 17-8 in 2005 with a 3.79 ERA and 211 Ks in 225 innings. He was just God awful.)

 

This is getting repetitive, but I want to make this painfully obvious. Javier Vazquez in 2003, before the Yankees acquired him: 230 innings, 198 hits, 241 Ks, 57 BBs, 3.24 ERA, and a 1.10 WHIP. He was also an All Star in 2004 because he pitched so well for us in the first half of the season. He then had injury problems the rest of the way, and was moved for the aforementioned Randy Johnson.

 

Ohlendorf has pitched a total of 27.1 major league innings. And Owings has been decidedly average in the National League, with a 4.33 ERA. Cashman didn't pass on Lincecum, he passed on Owings. The only reason anybody knows his name is because he's a good hitter.

[jacksonianmarch]

exactly. Unfortunately Gom doesnt know much about baseball. He doesnt see that the league has changed. You no longer can just throw money at a problem. Teams are hanging onto pitching, the free agent market has been s*** and teams are now building through the draft and international markets. I am not one to say that Cash hasnt made mistakes, he has made some doozies, but the biggest indicator of his success will be the farm system. And the fact that we started the yr with 2 very young home grown pitchers in our rotation and one very young, home grown reliable setup man shows what he is capable of. Unfortunately, not all of them work out. And to write off guys like Hughes and Kennedy at this point is just plain assinine. He can think what he wants, but this organization is far and away better than it was in 2005, when Cash wrested control away from Big Stein. And it will only get better. Every now and then, you need to take a step back to take a step forward, and I am okay with that. But I have a feeling that by the end of the season, we'll still be in the playoffs and will still have a shot at the title.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Yankees annual AL Team ERA rank under Brian Cashman:

 

[table] Year | Rank

1998 | 1

1999 | 2

2000 | 6

2001 | 3

2002 | 4

2003 | 3

2004 | 6

2005 | 9

2006 | 6

2007 | 8 [/table]

 

I researched this initially to defend Cashman, but looking at the numbers it appears that he's struggled after losing his initial talent base of pitchers, especially considering the Yankees' league-leading payrolls.

[TheKilo]

exactly. Unfortunately Gom doesnt know much about baseball. He doesnt see that the league has changed. You no longer can just throw money at a problem. Teams are hanging onto pitching' date=' the free agent market has been s*** and teams are now building through the draft and international markets. I am not one to say that Cash hasnt made mistakes, he has made some doozies, but the biggest indicator of his success will be the farm system. And the fact that we started the yr with 2 very young home grown pitchers in our rotation and one very young, home grown reliable setup man shows what he is capable of. Unfortunately, not all of them work out. And to write off guys like Hughes and Kennedy at this point is just plain assinine. He can think what he wants, but this organization is far and away better than it was in 2005, when Cash wrested control away from Big Stein. And it will only get better. Every now and then, you need to take a step back to take a step forward, and I am okay with that. But I have a feeling that by the end of the season, we'll still be in the playoffs and will still have a shot at the title.[/quote']

 

Even with two months of Rasner and Igawa?

 

Good luck...

[ARod2212]

Yankees annual AL Team ERA rank under Brian Cashman:

 

[table] Year | Rank

1998 | 1

1999 | 2

2000 | 6

2001 | 3

2002 | 4

2003 | 3

2004 | 6

2005 | 9

2006 | 6

2007 | 8 [/table]

I researched this initially to defend Cashman, but looking at the numbers it appears that he's struggled after losing his initial talent base of pitchers, especially considering the Yankees' league-leading payrolls.

 

It's really not as easy to get pitchers as it used to be. Revenue sharing has allowed small market teams to lock up most of their starters, or ask a king's ransom for them. To get Josh Beckett the Sox had to give up Hanley Ramirez, who could be the best player in baseball. The game is different now, you have to develop your own pitching to have a chance to win, and that's what they've realized and started to do.

[Mr Crunchy]

hey

he got brian stanton for chrissakes

he brought along aaron small and shawn boogaloo chacon.

he went out and got a 20 game 18 game and 15 game winner in the fall of 04 after the worst collapse since the roman empire went balls up against the vandals back in the late 5th century.

i admire brian cashman's courage to face down fredo steinbrenner and the ny media.

[Cocos Disciples]

My sarcasm radar is down and undergoing maintenance, and I'm bored, so I'm taking this post as if it were serious. Because it might be...

 

hey

he got brian stanton for chrissakes

 

Okay...who the f*** is Brian Stanton? You mean Mike Stanton?

 

he brought along aaron small and shawn boogaloo chacon.

 

Can you really credit this to Cashman? This is pure luck in my book. Not taking anything away from the two pitchers, although they have sucked their entire careers except 2005, but this isn't Cashman.

 

he went out and got a 20 game 18 game and 15 game winner in the fall of 04 after the worst collapse since the roman empire went balls up against the vandals back in the late 5th century.

 

Wait. Slow down. Backtrack. Rewind. I assume you're talking about Randy Johnson, Carl Pavano and Jaret Wright. Here. Are you actually f***ing praising Cashman for getting these guys? Johnson was the only guy who had any type of success, and in his first year he saw his ERA drop 1.19 points and his WHIP drop 0.22 points. That was his only good year in NY. I don't think I need to elaborate on Pavano and Wright.

[26 to 6]

IT'S MAY f***ING 7TH.

Basically. Every year as of late when the Yankees struggle in April ignorant f***ing people come to me say how much the Yankee suck, or how this isn't their year, or whatever the case may be. My response to them is always an irritated "It's April (In this case May 7th)! Lot of baseball left to be played." It's ridiculous. Come August as we're headed down the stretch-run mot people don't even remember what played out the first Month and a half of the season. Just relax everyone...the season is young.

[26 to 6]

Can you really credit this to Cashman? This is pure luck in my book. Not taking anything away from the two pitchers, although they have sucked their entire careers except 2005, but this isn't Cashman.

Come one man, give him his fair due. Aaron Small was brought into camp as a non-roster invite, got off to a rough start in the minors, strongly considered retirement, turned it around with Columbus, cam up and was spectacular. It's not fair to say Ca$h hadnothing to do with that, he's the one who brought him into camp, monitored his progress in AAA, and made the decision to bring him up. How about some credit for a good move. Same with Chacon, there was a lot of speculation as to how he would pitch, and he came over from Colorado and pitched damn-well. That was a good move Cashman made. If he's gonna get ripped for bringing in Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson, and Jeff Weaver, give him some props for these low-cost successes he's pulled off.

[YAZMAN]

Maybe this deserves its' own thread, and maybe there's some information I don't have, but are there new/modified "Joba Rules" in effect this year? Is he working with The Steamer, or being instructed to emulate him? Was he told to stick around with the rookie pitchers, and took it totally out of context?

[jacksonianmarch]

You wanna see why our team's pitching has been in the shitter?

Take a look at the drafts and signings

1985- Williams

1989- Posada

1990- Pettitte, Rivera

1991- Mendoza

1992- Jeter

 

Just take a look at that level of scouting. All of them hit their stride around the same time and in that class 2 sure fire HOFers and 2 ?HOFers were drafted/signed

 

Take a look at the drafts from the subsequent yrs

1993- best player was Chad Moeller who ended up back here

1994- Brain Buchanon was the best player and he was a AAAA guy

1995- Mike Lowell was the best player and he was dealt for Ed Yarnall

1996- Not a bad draft, but we traded it all away. Nick Johnson was dealt for Vazquez who was dealt for Johnson who was dealt for Ohlendorf, Vizcaino, and Gonzalez, Viz left and now we are just left with Ohlie, Gonzalez and a supplemental 1st rounder. Eric Milton who we dealt for Knoblauch and was a good trade at the time. And Marcus Thames who is still playing.

1997- Aaron Heilman was the best pick here and we didnt sign him

1998- Mark Prior in the first, but he didnt sign. Drew Henson and Randy Keisler were duds

1999- Andy Phillips was the best player drafted

2000-Wang in INTL signing. The draft was awful

2001- Cano, Cabrera, Duncan from both the INTL and draft. Chase Wright as well. Ford-Griffin and Sardinha were massive busts

2002- Halsey was the best player from this draft

2003- Clippard and Karstens have made the majors, and Clippard netted Alabaladejo who shows promise as a middle man. Eric Duncan, the 1st round pick, is finally hitting in his 3rd attempt at AAA but looks more like a role player

 

For a solid 11 yrs, we have had drafts that have either sucked or the good players we drafted were sold or given up on too early. THAT is why the pitching has gone to s***. In the meantime, we have seen teams like Boston develop a dependable closer and 2/5 of their rotation from within as well as their 2b, 1b, C, CF. Add in the Japanese moves and they made a killing off of players that they didnt have to deal away talent for. Look at a team like Oakland who put together a big 3 from within (Mulder, Hudson, Zito), blew it up then put together an even better tandem in Harden, Haren, Blanton before blowing that up too. Why were they able to build 6 all star caliber pitchers from within when we couldnt draft or sign or trade for one? The only SP all star we have had in awhile was Javy Vazquez and we all know how that yr turned out.

 

The days of doing things the old yankee way are out.

We got Wells as a FA reclamation project in 97.

Cone was had from the Jays to the Yankees in 95 for 3 subpar prospects to get out from under his contract even though he was still in his prime at 32.

El Duque was signed mostly because the yankees were the best known team in Cuba and not many teams thought his success in cuba would translate

Clemens was had for Wells and 2 other players past their prime or busts.

Pettitte was the only home grown talent.

 

You just cannot make those deals anymore. Back in the day, you could get an ace for s*** so long as you paid money for it. Teams dont do that nowadays and the only way to build a team is from within and then adding a few key pieces from outside. Cashman wont be judged by how the yankees do in 2008. Even if he is fired, he'll be judged by how the 04-now drafts and INTL signings work out. We have now restocked the farm and it will eventually work. If it takes a bit then so be it.