Youkilis - Where does he rank?

[Jayhawk Bill]

Wow...I am definitely right...

 

You very often are--I respect your views regarding our team.

 

By the way, where would YOU rank Youkilis?

[TheKilo]

 

Ill say it again, dont understand why here....people rescind to name calling rather than just having a discussion about a team which the board is named after. just about everyone here is a RedSox fan in one fashion or another (besides the NYY fans). Instead of insulting someone who roots for the same team you do, why not just counter the argument without the immature, pathetic insults?....maybe its just the young age of the board. I guess keyboard trash talking is the new thing of the younger generation.

 

It's called you getting wrecked in an argument and then playing the victim card when someone calls you out for writing something idiotic.

[SCM33]

Wow. Do you have to resort to spitting out overused, cliche "jokes?"

 

Here's a fact that I am definitely right about. You are not funny.

 

 

 

Dude, what you wrote was the most unintentional arrogant thing I've ever read. "I back it up with what I see, because I don't need numbers, and we're pretty close!!!!" :thumbsup: I'm so f***ing sick of people who think they are above concrete evidence. Bill Plaschke thinks his eyes are superior to what actually is happening. You don't want to be Bill Plaschke, do you?

 

I felt compelled to call you out, because you are guilty of incorrectly claiming things, that could be avoided had you spent one minute looking it up.

 

I apologize for the personal attack bro, it just pissed me off, because I was not trying to sound arrogant and if it came off that way, then it came out wrong. I think you took my statement wrong, I was not trying to prove anything, it was more or less a joke. In fact, I do look at numbers and evaluate that way as well, I was just trying to say that they arent the bottom line in every situation, thats all. I dont think there is such thing as a better fan than another, and anything someone can teach me about the game is more than welcomed. If you dont like something I say, I would appreciate it a lot more if you showed me what you were trying to say and prove rather than just insulting it, know what I mean? If you know more about something than I do, show me.......I'm not stubborn enough to ignore what you say man, I never said I was above that.

 

 

Hey Kilo, thanks....didnt hear you on the 15 other threads. Dont understand the need to comment on it, I was wrong.....how bout that man....will that make you happy to the point where you dont have an urge to comment on EVERYTHING I say? If what I say bothers you so much man, then block me....or just ignore it. Its obvious you have some problem with me as a user here, so just ignore it. Again, I never had a problem with you before, and dont know what lead to this, I really wish you'd just squash it man. If you have something to reply to man, PM me so we dont kill the thread.

[SCM33]

Bumping the last relative post so this does not end up in fights and crap:

Youk has worked very hard to make himself into an accomplished Major Leaguer. He is talented at 3B and 1B which adds to his value. Although he does not have great speed on the bases nor the typical power of most corner infielders' date=' Youk does a great job. The best test of his value would be established by taking a survey among his teammates who I bet, without exception, are very comfortable and reliant on Youk.[/quote']

[BoSox21]

In my mind, the think preventing Youk from being a top guy in all of baseball is that he'd never be the guy a pitcher really worries about when he looks over the batting order he's facing that night.

 

He's the kind of guy who will always be a tough out and will be a key part of a potent offense because of his ability to draw high-pitch at-bats, to get on base and hit for average with decent power but to me, that'll just always be what he's gonna be, a complimentary part.

[SCM33]

In my mind, the think preventing Youk from being a top guy in all of baseball is that he'd never be the guy a pitcher really worries about when he looks over the batting order he's facing that night.

 

He's the kind of guy who will always be a tough out and will be a key part of a potent offense because of his ability to draw high-pitch at-bats, to get on base and hit for average with decent power but to me, that'll just always be what he's gonna be, a complimentary part.

 

In a lineup that features Manny and Ortiz, you are dead on. On another team though, I think hes good enough where a manager would game plan him. He is a complimentary part to our lineup, he could be a main cog in another.

[ORS]

Derrek Lee

 

Nope.

 

Three things:

 

1) Derrek Lee's 2006 sucked due to injury. Avoiding injury is a skill--Youkilis appears to be better than Lee at that skill.

 

2) Derrek Lee hit .265/.352/.397 away from Wrigley Field in his comeback from that miserable 2006 last year. Were it not for his opportunity to play in one of the greatest hitter's parks in baseball history, he'd've been a mediocrity.

 

3) The NL is less competitive than the AL.

I don't think this case against Lee is a particularly strong one. Lee's career splits are as follows.

 

[table]Place|BA|OBP|SLG

Home|.288|.381|.502

Road|.278|.357|.508[/table]

 

Let's not forget more than half of his career home PAs came in Florida. Does the park factor impact his game? Sure, his Dolphin Stadium numbers result in a .787 OPS compared to his 1.001 at Wrigley, as one would expect.

 

However, his Florida numbers encapsulate his performance prior to his breakout. His OPS is over 1.000 on the road in '05, and it's over on the road this year.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest '07 was either an anomaly or his injury from '06 had a lingering effect, as is common with wrist injuries.

 

Speaking of which, I wouldn't classify Lee as one who lacked the skill to stay healthy. He hasn't missed time from the type of injuries one would consider typical of the injury prone player. No significant DL time for pulls, sprains, strains, etc. His wrist was broken in a collision. From 2000-2005, he played in 158, 158, 162, 155, 161, and 158 games. The year after his injury, he played in 150.

 

Lee gets added to the list, IMO.

[Mr Crunchy]

what seperates youk from being great is his lack of power

thats it in a nutshell

his glove is setting records,his obp is solid,he works the count and drives in his share of runs.

it isnt easy getting gravy rbi's hitting behind manny papi and even lowell,who had 120 rbi last summer

youk i feel is either an ideal 2 hitter if he had more speed or an ideal 5 hitter if he had more power....

wherever he hits he is a gigantic pain in the ass to the opponents early in the season but seems to fade later in the year...hopefully he can maintain thruout

[Jayhawk Bill]

what seperates youk from being great is his lack of power

thats it in a nutshell

 

Set aside fielding.

 

Who was the better hitter, Wade Boggs or Jim Rice? Consider peak, career, and 162-game average stats. Who prevails?

 

Answer the question and I'll happily bring this tangent back to topic.

[Mr Crunchy]

wade boggs is possibly the best hitter i have ever seen.

jim rice was certainly more feared and for 10 years the most dangerous hitter in the game

but boggs was flat out a better hitter

[Mr Crunchy]

i am going to get booted so i'll have to get back to ya on this partner

[Jayhawk Bill]

I don't think this case against Lee is a particularly strong one. Lee's career splits are as follows.

 

[table]Place|BA|OBP|SLG

Home|.288|.381|.502

Road|.278|.357|.508[/table]

 

Let's not forget more than half of his career home PAs came in Florida. Does the park factor impact his game? Sure, his Dolphin Stadium numbers result in a .787 OPS compared to his 1.001 at Wrigley, as one would expect.

 

However, his Florida numbers encapsulate his performance prior to his breakout. His OPS is over 1.000 on the road in '05, and it's over on the road this year.

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest '07 was either an anomaly or his injury from '06 had a lingering effect, as is common with wrist injuries.

 

Speaking of which, I wouldn't classify Lee as one who lacked the skill to stay healthy. He hasn't missed time from the type of injuries one would consider typical of the injury prone player. No significant DL time for pulls, sprains, strains, etc. His wrist was broken in a collision. From 2000-2005, he played in 158, 158, 162, 155, 161, and 158 games. The year after his injury, he played in 150.

 

Lee gets added to the list, IMO.

 

ORS, if we're faulting cases, let's look at yours:

 

1) How relevant are any of Lee's stats over three years past in evaluating his current value?

 

2) How relevant are home-road splits including those years from the distant past, especially when they're years in a very different ballpark?

 

3) But, since you bring up career trends, is 2005 really a representative year in Lee's career? BR credits Lee with 6.3 batting wins in 2005. His second-best year is 2007, the year you discount as an anomaly, where he had 2.7 batting wins. OK, his 2002 tied his 2007, and his 2003 was 2.6 batting wins, but in 1,413 games--nine 157-game seasons--he's accumulated only 18.3 batting wins. That's 2.0 batting wins per full season--and that's even lower than Lee's 2007, despite completely forgiving time lost due to injury and bench time as a young player. It looks to me as if 2007 is slightly generous, not misrepresentative in any other way.

 

4) And, before you look up Youk's batting wins, they're lower but they're not normed interleague...Youk's EqA normed for all time was .297 in 2007, while Lee's was .305, and that doesn't consider Youk's defense nor Lee's unusual home-road split (it does adjust for normal park factors, but Lee draws a higher-than-normal advantage from Wrigley Field). In 2006 Youk was better than Lee. In 2007 it was very close.

 

In 2008, the topic of discussion, I still would want Youk over Lee. BP calls it close, but they favor you, ORS, as does every other poster.

 

I'll wait for October to tally stats. I'm backing Kevin Youkilis, even if I stand alone.

[Jayhawk Bill]

wade boggs is possibly the best hitter i have ever seen.

jim rice was certainly more feared and for 10 years the most dangerous hitter in the game

but boggs was flat out a better hitter

 

I'll happily concur.

 

You can't fault Youkilis for lacking power--there's more to hitting than power. Jim Rice was arguably the best power hitter of his generation in the AL (Mike Schmidt was better in the NL), and Rice was, for a time before he retired, the AL leader in career home runs. His teammate Boggs was still a better hitter.

 

Likewise, Youkilis shouldn't be discounted at first base for a lack of power hitting.

[SCM33]

Likewise' date=' Youkilis shouldn't be discounted at first base for a lack of power hitting.[/quote']

 

I agree, other teams would love to have Youk in their lineup as a 1B. He gets the job done, it may not always be flashy.....but hes proven to be a more than serviceable 1B'man.

[BoSox21]

Likewise, Youkilis shouldn't be discounted at first base for a lack of power hitting.

 

But he is, because first base is a power position. That said, it's irrelevant on our team because we have enough power as is.

[Ray10]

I think Youkilis is still a good solid first basemen. But I dunno if he's top 20 right now. I'd put him more in the top 50 in all of baseball. He's still a huge asset on the Sox roster though that's for sure.

[Jayhawk Bill]

But he is' date=' because first base is a power position.[/quote']

 

First base is a position where teams have traditionally parked their best hitters who cannot field other positions effectively. Usually those hitters have been power hitters, but there have been exceptions: Rod Carew immediately comes to mind.

 

The truism of defense not mattering at first base is now coming into question, though. About 200 balls come through the first baseman's zone over the course of a season. The best first basemen (Pujols, Youkilis) field about 84% of those balls, while the worst field around 64% (Dmitri Young). That's a difference of 40 plays per year, a difference of around 30 runs per year. Certainly that difference is less than the difference between best and worst fielders at, say, shortstop, but it's still a big difference.

 

While Kevin Youkilis isn't the traditional power-hitting sessile fielder (or is that Cecil Fielder?) one would find at first base, the value of his OBP, his defense, and his medium power combine to make him one of the top ten first basemen in MLB. Power is valuable at any position; it's essential at none.

 

That said, it's irrelevant on our team because we have enough power as is.

 

Nah. I'd like more power. I'd like more walks, too. Until we're winning 100+ games a season, we need to get better.

 

One way to get better would be to increase the average value of the other 24 players on the 25-man roster to the value of Kevin Youkilis.

[Cocos Disciples]

lolwut.

 

Oh wait. Good call.

[Dojji]

I think Youkilis is still a good solid first basemen. But I dunno if he's top 20 right now. I'd put him more in the top 50 in all of baseball. He's still a huge asset on the Sox roster though that's for sure.

 

Considering that there are 30 everyday first basemen, you were basically saying he sucks. About that...

 

Seriously -- Youk is a huge asset to this team. A skilled 3B and a GG 1B with solid offense.

 

Not sure I trust this breakout year as an indicator of future performance, but for a guy who can do what Youk does with the glove both at first and third I'll take a ~.800-.850 OPS.

[TheKilo]

Blind squirrel, acorn, etc.