Yankee offense: worst start in 10 yrs

[TheKilo]

David Ortiz included?

 

A-Rod has always done it, and is continuing to do it. Ortiz was hitting bitch-balls in Minnesota, when he did hit, before going to Boston and hitting bombs.

 

What the f*** does this mean?

 

What if ARod was on the juice from the get-go?

[TheKilo]

David Ortiz included?

 

A-Rod has always done it, and is continuing to do it. Ortiz was hitting bitch-balls in Minnesota, when he did hit, before going to Boston and hitting bombs.

 

What the f*** does this mean? What if ARod was juicing from the get-go?

[BudLight]

Thanks' date=' Paul. Now show me that part where Canseco says Clemens [i']didn't[/i] use PED's. He didn't see it, and Clemens didn't tell him, but that does not say Clemens "didn't" do it.

 

 

It's in the same place as the part where Canseco undeniably states that A-Rod uses steroids. The argument here was that there was the belief that if Canseco states it in one of his "books", it must be true. You're original quote of the statement regarding Clemens from Juiced was missing some important information. You are correct he never said Clemens did not use PED's, but after Clemens' testimony on Capitol Hill, it appears that Canseco's implied belief that Clemens didn't use PED's is completely off base. I am only saying his accusations regarding A-Rod could also be completely off base. By the way, has Canseco found any funding sources for his movie (read Ordonez)

[ORS]

I read it differently. I read implied belief that Clemens used, I mean it's right there with B12 mockingly in quotes, but it is restrained by what he actually "knew". To me, the evolution of the Clemens saga only reinforces Canseco's credibility.

 

I've read there is a similar lack of hard evidence regarding ARod, so with his new book we won't know the truth. But, again, I'm not interested in pointing fingers. I just think it's unfair to classify anyone as stupid for thinking it when Jose is batting 1.000 on the subject.

[BudLight]

I read it differently. I read implied belief that Clemens used, I mean it's right there with B12 mockingly in quotes, but it is restrained by what he actually "knew". To me, the evolution of the Clemens saga only reinforces Canseco's credibility.

 

I've read there is a similar lack of hard evidence regarding ARod, so with his new book we won't know the truth. But, again, I'm not interested in pointing fingers. I just think it's unfair to classify anyone as stupid for thinking it when Jose is batting 1.000 on the subject.

 

I imply a different meaning, by Canseco stating ...."I’ve heard him use the phrase “B12 shot” with respect to others." In other words, Roger wasn't talking about his own use of "B12", but the use of others. I believe Clemens used PED's but I believe Canseco believed he did not. I'd say Canseco is batting .750, but I also don't put much credence behind a guy who was a pro athlete who now couldn't even get a job as a towel boy in an MLB locker room and is relegated to playing slow pitch softball a few times a week in order to keep his ego satisfied.

[rician blast]

Does anyone really think we even need Canseco's book before we can identify suspected PED use? Doesn't anyone see how these guys physiques change over short periods of time, how some go from 15-20 HRs up to 30-40HRs in the blionk of an eye, then fall apart physically?

 

I've said this many times before...in the early 80's I worked in a gym. 'Roids were rampant and college and HS athletes were using all sorts of s*** and it was easy to detect just by looking at them.

 

I recall a HS quarterback who bought $900 of juice one day, went from about 170 lbs to 200 ripped in 6 months, won all-league honors...also punched his girl in the face, got arrested several times but was somehow the toast of the town. Everyone in the gym knew he was using, by watching him change. This was a HS kid, with limited $$$ and not nearly as much to gain as a pro athlete.

 

Don't underestimate the power of a fan's own eyes, their common sense and their ability to read ballooning stat lines. Combine what you see with the knowledge of how much is at stake for these guys in terms of money and ego and it makes it hard NOT to suspect someone.

[BudLight]

Using some of the mentality that has been displayed in this discussion we should also acknowledge that Mike Wallace of 60 minutes has juiced. It must be true because he had an hour long, off-camera discussion with Canseco after their 60 minutes interview just before Juiced was released. Wallace's apparent interest and intrigue with steroids makes him guilty. Case closed!!

 

I never read and will never read Juiced. I will not put the money in Canseco's pocket. For someone who has read the book though, tell me, were any of the following named in Juice:

 

Jason Grimsley

David Justice

Chuck Knoblauch

Jim Parque

Benito Santiago

Mike Stanton

[26 to 6]

Using some of the mentality that has been displayed in this discussion we should also acknowledge that Mike Wallace of 60 minutes has juiced. It must be true because he had an hour long, off-camera discussion with Canseco after their 60 minutes interview just before Juiced was released. Wallace's apparent interest and intrigue with steroids makes him guilty. Case closed!!

 

I never read and will never read Juiced. I will not put the money in Canseco's pocket. For someone who has read the book though, tell me, were any of the following named in Juice:

 

Jason Grimsley

David Justice

Chuck Knoblauch

Jim Parque

Benito Santiago

Mike Stanton

I dont recall any of those names being mentioned. I'll go grab my copy and scan the index (if there is one) and let u know though..

[26 to 6]

Does anyone really think we even need Canseco's book before we can identify suspected PED use? Doesn't anyone see how these guys physiques change over short periods of time, how some go from 15-20 HRs up to 30-40HRs in the blionk of an eye, then fall apart physically?

Does Ortiz fit that description? I think he does...

 

I recall a HS quarterback who bought $900 of juice one day, went from about 170 lbs to 200 ripped in 6 months, won all-league honors...also punched his girl in the face, got arrested several times but was somehow the toast of the town. Everyone in the gym knew he was using, by watching him change. This was a HS kid, with limited $$$ and not nearly as much to gain as a pro athlete.

I'm not trying to debate anything said in your post, which I thought was very enlightening, but how can you say a High School kid has less to gain than a pro athlete. I would think it the other way around. The pro's already have a contract and are making money on a big stage. The HS kid is trying to get noticed by scouts and make a future for himself. I think that he would have more to gain, if not just as much.

[26 to 6]

What the f*** does this mean?

 

What if ARod was on the juice from the get-go?

Perhaps. But from the get go? Drafted right out of High School? He wasn't too big in his early years. Very fit, but not huge. He must have been on some good, unnoticeable s***. Throughout the years and as his size has progressed, it looks more like a natural growth to me than a chemically enhanced growth. His physical conditioning looks to be almost second to none. You can sort of tell when looking at PED user's physiques.

[26 to 6]

While I suppose I could just refer you to past posts where I've listed suspected users, I'll play along...I'm going to mix it up a bit, hitting different eras and levels of talent:

 

Kapler, Youk, Ortiz, Troy O'Leary, Tek, Foulke, John Valentin, Nixon, ARod, Giambi, Posada, Pettitte (but only twice..I mean 4 times...I mean...well you get the picture), Clemens, Sheffield, Ruben Sierra, Rivera, Karim Garcia (right, who?), Knoblauch, Ricky Henderson, Miguel Tejada, Jim Thome, Luis Gonzalez, Juan Gonzalez, Morgan Ensberg, Jeff Bagwell, Kevin Brown, Damon, Dante Bichette, Biggio,Palmeiro, Jeter, Burnitz, Garciaparra, Jim Edmunds, Scott Rolen, Mike Lansing, Albert Belle, Greg Vaughn, Moises, Vinny Castilla, Jay Buhner, Gary Gaeitti, Ron Gant, Pedro, I'm tired and I think I'll stop now.

Fair enough..

 

wait.....Jeter!? Are you drunk? You have to be kidding me.

 

Not only was it deserved, but it was correct. If you weren't such a defensive little bitch when it came to everything Yankee, we wouldn't be where we are now in this discussion.

I wouldn't need to get so defensive if you were a little fair and objective from time to time when it comes to the Yankees. You're terribly biased against them, and it shines through in every post you make about them.

[TheKilo]

Perhaps. But from the get go? Drafted right out of High School? He wasn't too big in his early years. Very fit' date=' but not huge. He must have been on some good, unnoticeable s***. Throughout the years and as his size has progressed, it looks more like a natural growth to me than a chemically enhanced growth. His physical conditioning looks to be almost second to none. You can sort of tell when looking at PED user's physiques.[/quote']

 

You can tell if someone uses HGH? They get massive...like Chuck Knoblauch or Brian Roberts?

[jacksonianmarch]

Hey, the bats are alive with the warm weather.

[26 to 6]

No, they don't get massive, but their body looks bulky and unproportioned. At the time you don't realize, but looking back after hearing of somebody's use, you can sort of see it. And I know whats coming from you next, but I think it definitely goes beyond ones own mind telling them that. I'm not gonna waste my time doing it, but go andlook at pictures of some of the players who have been named throughout different times in their career.

[TheKilo]

Brian Roberts is bulky and disproportioned?

[26 to 6]

You're such a argumentative, ball-busting prick, man. lol How do the people in your life deal with you?

 

Besides, Roberts said he only used once back in 2003. Not saying that that is completely true, but throwing it out there.

[ORS]

Wah, why do you insist on my posts making sense? Wah, why won't you just let me spew forth with whatever tripe I want to and not have to suffer the injustice of critical analysis?

 

Get the sand out of your vagina and accept the fact that message boards are primarily a place of debate. The points you make are rife with holes, banal cliches, and flat out poor logic. Up your game, you whiner.

[26 to 6]

Go f*** yourself. You're a misreble old man who has nothing better to do than try to impress people you don't even know to bloat your ego even more so than it already is. All of that "my dick is bigger than your dick" s*** might have been fine and dandy with your marine buddies, but you're just as full of s*** as me or anyone else. Get over yourself Mr. holier than thou.

 

What holes were in my post, all I said is that looking back, after learning of a players steroid use, you can sort of see it in their physique. Some more than others. The fact that most of you guys; especially you, kilo, 700, etc. don't like me very much caused that kilo of cocaine sniffing prick to become argumentative. I could say the grass is green and you guys would try to dispute it. Go jerk off to some World Series highlights or something.

[TheKilo]

Cocaine is a hell of a drug, but you can't defend your posts without getting riled up and start dishing out "insults".

 

If you say something like David Ortiz used steroids, back it up with more than "he started hitting bombs in Boston." This completely disregards thinks like organizational approaches to hitting, consistent playing time, new coaches and hitting backdrops, etc.

 

Can you explain to me why ARod should be immune from the steroid discussion if Ortiz is a part of it?

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm of the belief that nobody is totally clean, so therefore, I dont care.

[CrespoBlows]

Go f*** yourself. You're a misreble old man who has nothing better to do than try to impress people you don't even know to bloat your ego even more so than it already is. All of that "my dick is bigger than your dick" s*** might have been fine and dandy with your marine buddies' date=' but you're just as full of s*** as me or anyone else. Get over yourself Mr. holier than thou. [/quote']

 

This isn't about "my dick is bigger than your dick," this is about your ability to form a coherent point. Your points are swiftly crushed, because they're weak and full of fallacies.

 

What holes were in my post,

 

No, they don't get massive, but their body looks bulky and unproportioned.

 

This is a hasty generalization.

 

 

all I said is that looking back, after learning of a players steroid use, you can sort of see it in their physique. Some more than others.

 

http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/images/2005/06/05/b8UU9aTQ.jpg

 

Like him?

 

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2005/08/02/2005-08-02-franklin.jpg

 

....or like him?

 

The fact that most of you guys; especially you, kilo, 700, etc. don't like me very much caused that kilo of cocaine sniffing prick to become argumentative.

 

No, it was because what you said was biased, and stupid.

 

 

I could say the grass is green and you guys would try to dispute it.

 

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1078/1393644011_736d93a043.jpg

 

This grass is brown. I guess your wrong, again.

 

Go jerk off to some World Series highlights or something.

 

LOL!

[a700hitter]

What holes were in my post' date=' all I said is that looking back, after learning of a players steroid use, you can sort of see it in their physique. Some more than others. The fact that most of you guys; especially you, kilo, 700, etc. don't like me very much caused that kilo of cocaine sniffing prick to become argumentative. I could say the grass is green and you guys would try to dispute it. Go jerk off to some World Series highlights or something.[/quote']What makes you think that I hate you? Don't be so sensitive.

[26 to 6]

Cocaine is a hell of a drug, but you can't defend your posts without getting riled up and start dishing out "insults".

 

If you say something like David Ortiz used steroids, back it up with more than "he started hitting bombs in Boston." This completely disregards thinks like organizational approaches to hitting, consistent playing time, new coaches and hitting backdrops, etc.

 

Can you explain to me why ARod should be immune from the steroid discussion if Ortiz is a part of it?

I made Ortiz a part of it because A-Rod was thrown into it. I make a point to never throw anyone into steroid discussions because we simply don't know. It was so wide-spread that it's not fair to speculate on just a few players. But when you guys are gonna throw A-Rod, probably one of the two or three most gifted players of all time, under the steroid bus I'm gonna have to do the same. Why take exception to me throwing Ortiz out there if you guys are gonna claim A-Rod used. And forgive me for not being crystal clear and explaining all points of suspicion regarding Ortiz, I didn't feel it was necessary as it has all been said many times before. Change in size, change in production, blah, blah, etc. Must I go on?

 

This is a hasty generalization.

Well forgive me. I'm not at work or in class when I post here so my need to be precise and unambiguous and thoroughly explain my thought process dwindles in my eyes. I do enough of that on a daily basis that sometimes when I'm home I like to relax, allow my mind to drift, and just ******** a little online. I didn't realize the standards of postong on talksox.com were so high, I feel like it's a f***ing job.

 

No, it was because what you said was biased, and stupid.

biased towards what? what bias could I possibly have in making the point that some players you can clearly tell took steroids?

 

http://www.survivinggrady.com/uploaded_images/gagne-727840.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/05/09/sports/09steroids.1.600.jpg

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0619/pg2_a_dykstra_195.jpg

http://www.blackstate.com/images/BarryBonds.jpg

http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/08/10/amd_lup_mcgwire.jpg

http://www.johnrocker.net/images/john_nypd.jpg

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2005/writers/jeffri_chadiha/03/15/chadiha.giambis/p1_giambis.jpg

 

All I did was say that you can look back at some revealed PED users and see it in their physique. Not all, but some. Those who used enough of it for long enough you can tell. Why not take issue with rican blast for saying he saw people on it all the time when he worked in a gym? I doubt he actually saw them inject themselves, but he could tell by looking at their physique. I don't have the energy or the picture resources to find a bunch of very revealing photos of players with bulging veins that make it obvious, but I tried to give you an idea of what I was saying. Had I not limited my pictures to baseball players I could have made my point even more so with some football players. Point is though, that I don't see why you guys take such exception to me pointing out that some players were obvious offenders, and you can tell this by looking at some of their bodies. Maybe because I didn't specify that I was only referring to some players and not every single steroid injecting motherf***ing one of them. But I think it has more to do with the fact that I'm a diehard Yankee fan who wears his fanhood on his sleeve and most of you guys don't like that. The fact that I love baseball and my favorite team as I did when I was a child, and I let it shine through and allow myself to become enamored by it all seems to offend some people. My love of baseball is all I have left of my childhood, so if my displayed approach and insight into the game offends or bothers some of you, then sorry, but go whistle. I'm not an idiot, I'm not delusional, I know how things work , I know how to be objective and think things through, but that doesn't mean I have to lay all of that out here. This is supposed to be a place to just come and lay your cards down, shoot the s***, and enjoy the company of other baseball fans, all be it mainly Red Sox fans . But some of you gusy take this s*** way too f***ing seriously. Maybe you're like this to me and some of my fellow Yankee fans because of all the pent up rage and frustration from all the years you've had to endure taking s*** from Yankee fans like myself, and you feel the need to return the favors while your team is on top (not for long) and you have the opportunity. So by all means, let it out. It won't last long.

[26 to 6]

Now back to the topic at hand, the Yankee offense. Looks like the controlled climate inside the Trop is helping to heat up our offense. We have to hope that it carries over into the Boston series.

 

I want to apologize to a few of you for allowing this thread to get soooooo far off track. But the idiocy of some Red Sox fans who feel the need to throw steroids into the mix when discussing a slumping Yankee team infuriates me. Lets move on....

[CrespoBlows]

Well forgive me. I'm not at work or in class when I post here so my need to be precise and unambiguous and thoroughly explain my thought process dwindles in my eyes. I do enough of that on a daily basis that sometimes when I'm home I like to relax' date=' allow my mind to drift, and just ******** a little online. I didn't realize the standards of postong on talksox.com were so high, I feel like it's a f***ing job. [/quote']

 

When your having a debate, and you post something that doesn't make sense, it's going to be challenged. I don't see why this is so hard to get?

 

 

 

biased towards what? what bias could I possibly have in making the point that some players you can clearly tell took steroids?

 

I was refering to you defining what steriod users look like, to fit the definition of a certain Red Sox slugger, but the main problem I have with your post was:

 

No, they don't get massive, but their body looks bulky and unproportioned.

 

Then you proceeded to post pictures of people who fit that definition. Another example of generalization.

 

The point I'm trying to get across is, don't generalize an entire group of people, when they are clearly examples refuting it.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Go jerk off to some World Series highlights or something.

Pardon my late response, but the irony of a Yankee Fan posting under the handle "26 to 6" writing these words is significant.

 

***

 

I'm of the belief that nobody is totally clean, so therefore, I dont care.

 

FWIW, Boston had fewer people tested positive in its system over the duration of the current program (1) than any other MLB team, IIRC. I'd agree to the point that PED use was and is more prevalent than we can yet document, but I'm not sure that I'd call everybody guilty.

 

***

 

For my fellow Red Sox fans, a caution: The Yankees are one of the two best teams in MLB. Let's acknowledge their slow start and let's point to obvious flaws, but let's not escalate to the point of hubris, lest our 86-year Greek tragedy resume.

 

Today, advantage Boston. Let's see what tonight brings...I'm sure that the grounds crew are soaking the infield grass at Yankee Stadium as I type this post.

[CrespoBlows]

FWIW, Boston had fewer people tested positive in its system over the duration of the current program (1) than any other MLB team, IIRC. I'd agree to the point that PED use was and is more prevalent than we can yet document, but I'm not sure that I'd call everybody guilty.

 

 

ya itz becuz bud seeleg wuz in charge n hes rly a red sux fan fuk u bill ur never played the game u dnt kno bout grinding n being tuff n clutch n lookin at dusty baker n seeein dat look n hiz eye dat says, "FUK OBP WAT IS DAT OUTSTANING BULL PLOP LOL DUSTY RULZ

[rician blast]

I'm not trying to debate anything said in your post, which I thought was very enlightening, but how can you say a High School kid has less to gain than a pro athlete. I would think it the other way around. The pro's already have a contract and are making money on a big stage. The HS kid is trying to get noticed by scouts and make a future for himself. I think that he would have more to gain, if not just as much.

 

IMO, most HS kids have no delusions of ever making the pro's, and most know they won't even play college ball. They do it for the here and now, the HS glory, and perhaps to look good at the beach during the summer! The pro's know that the difference between 15 and 30 hrs, or hitting .275 vs. .295, or 65 RBIs vs. 90 RBIs mean $$$$ and fame...that's where I'm coming from...the payoff for the pro's is much more immediate. From my experience most of the HS kids are thinking of just being better now, not making the pro's.

[rician blast]

All I did was say that you can look back at some revealed PED users and see it in their physique. Not all, but some. Those who used enough of it for long enough you can tell. Why not take issue with rican blast for saying he saw people on it all the time when he worked in a gym? I doubt he actually saw them inject themselves, but he could tell by looking at their physique. I don't have the energy or the picture resources to find a bunch of very revealing photos of players with bulging veins that make it obvious, but I tried to give you an idea of what I was saying. .

 

You know, I've wondered if any one would say how do I KNOW these HS kids took the s***. I did see college kids inject and let's just say I know what drugs were bought, how much they bought, what it cost, etc. After a while I could also tell who was doing it, for the most part, of the guys that I didn't have "inside information" on. And the physique changes, as 26 points out, were there. So were the attitude changes.

 

Zits the size of guinea pigs on their backs and shoulders. Bloatedness or ridiculous cuts, depending on what they were doing. Weight gain, strength gain, etc. It was all there and often undeniable.

 

Look at guys like Bagwell, or Bonds, or Dykstra who over a few years got huge. I seriously doubt it was a result of their nutrition and off-season training schedule alone. I can't find any fault in 26 or anyone else for pointing to a picture of a player and noticing a massive change and assuming the player used PEDs, as I truly believe Canseco and MLB/Mitchell Report have only scratched the surface of the prevalance.

 

Ya know, all of this talk started when I JOKINGLY said ARod musta gone off the juice. It was a joke, that's all. Had I seen this coming I'd have refrained...maybe. Anyway, sorry.

[26 to 6]

IMO' date=' most HS kids have no delusions of ever making the pro's, and most know they won't even play college ball. They do it for the here and now, the HS glory, and perhaps to look good at the beach during the summer! The pro's know that the difference between 15 and 30 hrs, or hitting .275 vs. .295, or 65 RBIs vs. 90 RBIs mean $$$$ and fame...that's where I'm coming from...the payoff for the pro's is much more immediate. From my experience most of the HS kids are thinking of just being better now, not making the pro's.[/quote']

Fair enough.

 

I was refering to you defining what steriod users look like, to fit the definition of a certain Red Sox slugger, but the main problem I have with your post was:

 

Then you proceeded to post pictures of people who fit that definition. Another example of generalization.

 

The point I'm trying to get across is, don't generalize an entire group of people, when they are clearly examples refuting it.

Nothing I said was meant to be taken as definitive. The reason all of that seems pretty general is because that's how I meant it.There are over 100 players who have been found to have used some sort of performance enhancing substance. They can't all fit the ame mold. Somebody had said that they get massive, which I was trying to say isn't always the case, some just get bulky and disproportioned. I guess I wasn't clear enough, but geeze I had to take an awful lot of flack for it. Saying that they get bulky and disproportioned is acknowledging a change in physique, albeit vague.That's better than responding to the massive thing with "Well you can barely notice the size change in the likes of Alex Sanchez, Brian Roberts, Wall Joyner, etc." I had not the time, effort, or desire to liste people name by name so I very generally just said that players can get bulky and disproportioned. I don't see why on earth people take such exception to that and feel the need to attack something as small and petty as that. The basis of my rants were not David Ortiz, as I said I only threw him in there because A-Rod's name was being dragged around. You guys are a tough crowd...