Red Sox sign Francona to Extension

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

 

I can't help but continue to have mixed feeling on Francona. I'll never doubt him as a person and how he handles himself but only in the way he manages a game.

 

I have to admit his approach in the 07 postseason was a much different Francona than I'm used to. A quick hook on the pitchers and had the guts to change out Crisp in favor of Ellsbury. He resisted the urge to pitch Beckett on short rest and had the confidence to set-up a tremendous story for Jon Lester in game 4.

 

All in all....can't argue 2 World Series championships in 4 years. I like the guys attitude and he always says the right thing. Nice to have you around Tito, you earned it.

[Jayhawk Bill]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

 

I can't help but continue to have mixed feeling on Francona. I'll never doubt him as a person and how he handles himself but only in the way he manages a game.

 

I have to admit his approach in the 07 postseason was a much different Francona than I'm used to. A quick hook on the pitchers and had the guts to change out Crisp in favor of Ellsbury. He resisted the urge to pitch Beckett on short rest and had the confidence to set-up a tremendous story for Jon Lester in game 4.

 

All in all....can't argue 2 World Series championships in 4 years. I like the guys attitude and he always says the right thing. Nice to have you around Tito, you earned it.

 

Great post.

 

Chris Jaffe considered Terry Francona one of the five worst managers of the 2000s and one of the 20 worst of the 20th Century in some analysis he did at BBTF a couple of years back. Much of the reason for that was his terrible 2000 season with the Phillies, but part of it was his lackluster 2004 (the Red Sox struggled far more than they should have given their talent), his knack for destroying pitchers, especially closers, and the tendency of players to do worse when getting Francona as a manager and to do better when leaving Francona. I'd add in his habit of using young players poorly--he almost ruined Pedroia in 2006, and he may have ruined Shoppach, Hansen and Meredith for the Red Sox. I personally blame Tito for mishandling Roberto Petagine and Wily Mo Pena, too.

 

Still, he won...we had heart failure in the ALCS both years, but he won.

 

Francona's finest moment, though, at least for me, was when Pedro Martinez left the ballpark before the game ended at the beginning of the 2004 season. When the media asked about it, Terry Francona said, more or less, "Sheesh...you know, I wasn't clear about that team rule. I'll talk to Pedro and I know that he won't do it again." The incident was quelled AND the standard was reinforced--that was a good moment.

 

Terry Francona is much better with John Farrell as his pitching coach. Let's see how they do as a team in 2008.

[TheKilo]

I find it incredible people question the way Tito does things.

 

When will he get the benefit of the doubt with his skeptics? If we win the WS again this season?

[BSN07]

Plan and simple, he gets it done. Even if we don't always agree with the way he geys there.

[Jayhawk Bill]

I find it incredible people question the way Tito does things.

 

When will he get the benefit of the doubt with his skeptics? If we win the WS again this season?

 

Let's look at the new Red Sox last year, and see who did better than expected after thriving under Terry Francona's leadership:

 

Dustin Pedroia: Roughly met his PECOTA--a PECOTA significantly lowered because of his 2006 cup of coffee under Terry Francona

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka: Disappointed

 

Julio Lugo: Sucked

 

JD Drew: Sucked

 

Of four new starters, one met expectations, one disappointed, and two sucked. When you have three guys whose salaries and acquisition costs are over $30 million per year as the three bad ones, that doesn't speak well of management.

 

Wanna include new bench players and relief pitchers?

 

Hideki Okajima: Excelled

 

Jacoby Ellsbury: Excelled

 

Clay Buchholz: Excelled

 

Bobby Kielty: Disappointed (60 OPS+)

 

Joel Pineiro: Sucked

 

JC Romero: Sucked

 

Brendan Donnelly: Sucked (pitched to injury; missed most of season)

 

Eric Gagne: Ummmmm...Sucked

 

Even counting Okajima and the two kids whose MLB cups of coffee were 100%-Kona-good, and stopping before getting to Kevin Cash's .111 batting average, Tito still didn't meet expectations managing his new bench players.

 

***

 

Pragmatically, the FO needs to reward a World Series victory, and I expect that Tito will continue to improve as a manager over the next three years--he's not yet an old manager. But you asked what would cause me to offer Tito the benefit of the doubt, and I respond that I'd like to see a year where his new players significantly exceed expectations as a group.

[example1]

Let's look at the new Red Sox last year, and see who did better than expected after thriving under Terry Francona's leadership:

 

Dustin Pedroia: Roughly met his PECOTA--a PECOTA significantly lowered because of his 2006 cup of coffee under Terry Francona

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka: Disappointed

 

Julio Lugo: Sucked

 

JD Drew: Sucked

 

Of four new starters, one met expectations, one disappointed, and two sucked. When you have three guys whose salaries and acquisition costs are over $30 million per year as the three bad ones, that doesn't speak well of management.

 

Wanna include new bench players and relief pitchers?

 

Hideki Okajima: Excelled

 

Jacoby Ellsbury: Excelled

 

Clay Buchholz: Excelled

 

Bobby Kielty: Disappointed (60 OPS+)

 

Joel Pineiro: Sucked

 

JC Romero: Sucked

 

Brendan Donnelly: Sucked (pitched to injury; missed most of season)

 

Eric Gagne: Ummmmm...Sucked

 

Even counting Okajima and the two kids whose MLB cups of coffee were 100%-Kona-good, and stopping before getting to Kevin Cash's .111 batting average, Tito still didn't meet expectations managing his new bench players.

 

***

 

The premise of your argument is that the manager has some impact on a player's performance--hence he deserves blame if particular players don't do well. Granted.

 

That same premise, it seems, absolutely must extend into the postseason. If we would blame Terry Francona for losses in the playoffs then we should also praise him for the absence of losses.

 

In the playoffs, against the best teams in baseball, the Red Sox have been 22-9 with 2 World Series victories under Francona. That .710 WP is the highest of any manager in history with 20 or more decisions. He has two world series sweeps, parts of 7 and 8-game winning streaks. Seven postseason series, four sweeps. Of course Francona doesn't get all of the credit for these wins, but he would certainly get some blame if they had been 0 for 3 with 12 losses.

 

 

 

Pragmatically, the FO needs to reward a World Series victory, and I expect that Tito will continue to improve as a manager over the next three years--he's not yet an old manager. But you asked what would cause me to offer Tito the benefit of the doubt, and I respond that I'd like to see a year where his new players significantly exceed expectations as a group.

 

We could look at how the most important new guys performed in 2004 and reach a different conclusion, right? His new players didn't excell in the playoffs this year, but they played better than they had throughout much of the season--Drew and Lugo did at least, and Matsuzaka really hung in there in some big games. The whole point was to win, and they did. Decisively in 2004 and 2008.

[TheKilo]

Let's look at the new Red Sox last year, and see who did better than expected after thriving under Terry Francona's leadership:

 

Dustin Pedroia: Roughly met his PECOTA--a PECOTA significantly lowered because of his 2006 cup of coffee under Terry Francona

 

Daisuke Matsuzaka: Disappointed

 

Julio Lugo: Sucked

 

JD Drew: Sucked

 

Of four new starters, one met expectations, one disappointed, and two sucked. When you have three guys whose salaries and acquisition costs are over $30 million per year as the three bad ones, that doesn't speak well of management.

 

Wanna include new bench players and relief pitchers?

 

Hideki Okajima: Excelled

 

Jacoby Ellsbury: Excelled

 

Clay Buchholz: Excelled

 

Bobby Kielty: Disappointed (60 OPS+)

 

Joel Pineiro: Sucked

 

JC Romero: Sucked

 

Brendan Donnelly: Sucked (pitched to injury; missed most of season)

 

Eric Gagne: Ummmmm...Sucked

 

Even counting Okajima and the two kids whose MLB cups of coffee were 100%-Kona-good, and stopping before getting to Kevin Cash's .111 batting average, Tito still didn't meet expectations managing his new bench players.

 

***

 

Pragmatically, the FO needs to reward a World Series victory, and I expect that Tito will continue to improve as a manager over the next three years--he's not yet an old manager. But you asked what would cause me to offer Tito the benefit of the doubt, and I respond that I'd like to see a year where his new players significantly exceed expectations as a group.

 

Are we really punishing Francona for certain players not living up to expectations? Does Francona get credit for the emergence and success of the rest of the players? Of course not - so why should he get the blame when others underperform?

 

I would really like to know what Francona should have done differently.

[Soxfan1]

I would love to see how Francona would do managing a bad/semi-good team. It's going to be interesting to see how Torre does this year in that position.

[Cocos Disciples]

He managed 4 straight sub .500 Phillies teams from 1997-2000.

[schillingouttheks]

He managed 4 straight sub .500 Phillies teams from 1997-2000.

 

In his defense, those teams were BAD. Like, incredibly bad.

[Jayhawk Bill]

Are we really punishing Francona for certain players not living up to expectations? Does Francona get credit for the emergence and success of the rest of the players? Of course not - so why should he get the blame when others underperform?

 

I would really like to know what Francona should have done differently.

 

What Boston players have overperformed under Terry Francona?

 

1) Jonathan Papelbon. Yeah.

 

2) Mark Bellhorn. He had one of his only two good years under Tito, even though he reverted to form in 2005.

 

3) David Ortiz. Actually, he established his ability under Grady Little--his last five months of 2003 were exactly what we've come to expect. He didn't, however, decline under Tito.

 

Ummmmmm...I think that's it. :dunno: One might mention Lowell and Beckett, but their COMBINED two years with Boston fit well into their careers in either case, with 2007 being better than 2006. Remember how much Beckett struggled in 2006.

 

OK, credit to Terry Francona for those success stories.

 

***

 

What players have seriously disappointed working under Terry Francona in Boston? A partial list:

 

1) Nomar Garciaparra

 

2) Pedro Martinez

 

3) Derek Lowe

 

4) BH Kim

 

5) Edgar Renteria

 

6) Matt Clement

 

7) Keith Foulke (after just one good season)

 

8) Craig Hansen

 

9) Cla Meredith

 

10) Coco Crisp

 

11) Wily Mo Pena

 

12) Javy Lopez

 

13) Willie Harris

 

14) JT Snow

 

15) Carlos Pena

 

16) Jason Johnson

 

17) Lenny DiNardo

 

18) Julio Lugo

 

19) JD Drew

 

20) Daisuke Matsuzaka

 

21) Eric Gagne

 

Try to excuse these, and you might get a few that seem reasonable, but it's a 21-3 count...and I haven't counted every failure (Mike Remlinger says "Hi.")

 

***

 

What could Tito have done better?

 

1) Pull his starting pitchers before they lose their games--that's why he was so terrible with Pedro, but also why lesser starters have struggled with Tito (Jason Johnson, DiNardo, Clement and Matsuzaka all fall into this category).

 

2) Use his relief pitchers with more care to prevent destroying their arms (Foulke) or their confidence (Gagne, Meredith).

 

3) Allow his less-experienced players a chance to grow with regular playing time. (Wily Mo Pena, Carlos Pena; also Pedroia's 2006, Kelly Shoppach, and Roberto Petagine).

 

4) Rest his veterans when they were hurt (Renteria, JD Drew; frankly, he's played Manny hurt far too much).

 

5) Pay less attention to career pitcher vs. batter records in drawing up lineup cards and more attention to current slumps and to overall career trends.

 

I applaud Terry Francona for his clubhouse and media relations, excepting his allowing the Jay Payton and, frankly, Manny Ramirez issues to get out of hand. I believe that his on-the-field work has been terrible, excepting perhaps the playoffs.

 

In the playoffs, against the best teams in baseball, the Red Sox have been 22-9 with 2 World Series victories under Francona. That .710 WP is the highest of any manager in history with 20 or more decisions. He has two world series sweeps, parts of 7 and 8-game winning streaks. Seven postseason series, four sweeps. Of course Francona doesn't get all of the credit for these wins, but he would certainly get some blame if they had been 0 for 3 with 12 losses.

 

1) Small sample size;

 

2) Gotta remember that he's only faced one team with a payroll higher than Boston's in seven postseason series.

 

He managed 4 straight sub .500 Phillies teams from 1997-2000.

 

In his defense, those teams were BAD. Like, incredibly bad.

 

The Phillies improved by 21 games the season after they fired Terry Francona.

[Ray10]

He deserves this contract that's for sure. 2 World Series Championships in the last 4 years.

[MANNYHOF24]

Yawn, managers have mostly nothing to do with how a player performs. As far as having players play injured, I am sure that is up to the FO and player as much as its up to Francona. Seriously how can we complain? We have two frigging rings in 4 years! Just freaking enjoy the success.

[jacksonianmarch]

Francona should build a statue to Theo and the ownership for getting on board with development and acquiring him some top notch talent. Tito is not a great manager in terms of game success. He just keeps the big ego players from killing themselves, akin to what Torre did. And sometimes that is all you need when you have leaders like Ortiz and Varitek in that lockerroom. I think the true test of Tito will be when Tek rides off into the sunset. Who will be the captain of the ship then?

 

This is where Torre started to show his weaknesses. A team full of high priced talent, no group of intrinsic leaders (even though Jeter is the captain) like he had in the late 90s (Brosius, Martinez, O'Neill, Cone, Girardi, Bernie and many others were all character guys). When the team lacks leadership and your manager isnt a leader in and of himself, then you run into trouble. We'll see what Tito does in that case. Regardless, he outcoached Torre in 04 (who couldnt) and then outmuscled everyone else.

[Cocos Disciples]

In his defense' date=' those teams were BAD. Like, incredibly bad.[/quote']

 

I know, I was responding to SoxFan#1's post.

[riverside sluggers]

Sorry Jayhawk... I just dont agree with the notion that the manager holds total responsibility for how all his players perform

 

BH Kim? Jeez then all of his managers arent doing their jobs huh?

 

I hardly find fault with Tito not giving "enough" playing time to then call up Dustin Pedroia. Its funny how its lost that he stuck with Pedroia through the trying month of April until Dusty took off... and became the ROY and a solid force in the playoffs

 

Remember the 2nd game of the 06 season? In a 1 run game Tito called on for Papelbon, not Foulke, to get the save.