Clemens and Bonds

scaffolds · December 14, 2007

Let me start saying that I am not a bit surprised the way Clemens name has shown up in Mitchell's report, as a matter fact there has been some talk about this for years. I am not a Barry Bonds fan, as a matter fact far from it, but now that we have all this info isn't Clemens records as tainted as Bonds is? and their place on the history of the game?

example1 · December 14, 2007

All the records are tainted. Personally, I think the records thing is a side-bar discussion.

Bonds has been a douche. He has disrespected a lot of people, has lied openly and accused people of being *******s for even QUESTIONING his integrity. he slandered the guys who wrote the book and he has shown no remorse. Instead of just shutting up and going quietly he turned around and lashed out as if he had been attacked unnecessarily. The guy hit, what, 73 HRs or something in a season, unabashedly basking in the glow of his achievement, and then cried foul when people looked at this record--which many held dear--carefully to make sure it was official.

Clemens is a jerk too, but at least he just shuts up about it. Now is his chance to F-it all up.

BoSox34 · December 17, 2007

There is one difference between the legacies of Clemends and Bonds and that is the color of their skin.

I remember hearing a discussion on WEEI about whether the media and fan reaction would be different if it Favre or Manning had been caught in the dog fighting scandal. The topic went on to question the reception if it had been A-Rod that was wrapped up in a steroid scandal, instead of Bonds. First off, I think this is a kind of skewed scenario because A-Rod is generally disliked by many fans and he is Dominican American so he isn't exactly "White".

Last week, the perfect counterexample emerged involving Roger Clemens. In general, the reception from fans and the media has been a slap on the wrist.

Sure, it's far from proven that Clemens used steroids but when there was similar "he said she said" un-confirmed evidence against Bonds, the reaction was outrage and in some cases, hatred.

Some arguments I've heard...

1. Clemens would have been great without the steroids...he just used them to extend his career and make a living.

Well, besides the fact that after his first 10 years of pitching, he probably made more money than all talksox members combined...Bonds also would have been great without steroids and had plenty of pure talent.

2. It isn't proven that Clemens used steroids.

As I said before, when Bonds had similar types of allegations, baseball fans pretty much assumed that he had used steroids. Will it really surprise anyone when it comes out that Clemens used steroids? Just look at his career.

3. Bonds was a jerk anyway. I would have given him a break if he wasn't such an arrogant SOB.

...and Clemens isn't?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/leastliked/readers/010815.html

Clemens is listed as the least likable baseball player including a comment saying,

All this, not to mention that when I was 10 years old, the scumbag wanted $20 for an autograph. Given the choice between a Clemens autographed baseball, and a pair of Pump sneakers for my birthday, I wisely chose the Pumps.
Kevin M
Boston

This story is nothing new to me. One of my friends met Roger Clemens at a local restaraunt a few years back and he asked Clemens for his autograph. Roger refused and my friend also said he was rude.

Why are we not calling for Clemens milestones to have an asterik?

Why are we not questioning Clemens' HOF legitimacy?

Why is Clemens getting a free pass from the media and the overall MLB fan base, while Bonds went through years of hatred and ridicule?

The answer is as simple as color.

Jayhawk Bill · December 17, 2007

Why are we not calling for Clemens milestones to have an asterik?
Why are we not questioning Clemens' HOF legitimacy?
Why is Clemens getting a free pass from the media and the overall MLB fan base, while Bonds went through years of hatred and ridicule?

The answer is as simple as color.

Heritage may be a factor.

If I may add another, it's that Clemens didn't amass 512 wins or 5,715 strikeouts. Bonds broke the all-time home run record, and he's perceived to have cheated to do it. He broke the single-season home run record as well. Clemens has put together one of the ten-best pitching careers ever, IMO, but he didn't break a sacred record.

BoSox34 · December 17, 2007

Heritage may be a factor.

If I may add another, it's that Clemens didn't amass 512 wins or 5,715 strikeouts. Bonds broke the all-time home run record, and he's perceived to have cheated to do it. He broke the single-season home run record as well. Clemens has put together one of the ten-best pitching careers ever, IMO, but he didn't break a sacred record.

He didn't break a sacred record?

Clemens was the first...and second player to throw 20 strikeouts in a game, and that record still stands today.

He also has won the most Cy Young Awards ever with 7.

Sure, he didn't break arguably the two biggest records for pitchers but he was knocking on their doors and he still has achieved some pretty important records in his career.

Thumper · December 17, 2007

There is one difference between the legacies of Clemends and Bonds and that is the color of their skin.

I remember hearing a discussion on WEEI about whether the media and fan reaction would be different if it Favre or Manning had been caught in the dog fighting scandal. The topic went on to question the reception if it had been A-Rod that was wrapped up in a steroid scandal, instead of Bonds. First off, I think this is a kind of skewed scenario because A-Rod is generally disliked by many fans and he is Dominican American so he isn't exactly "White".

Last week, the perfect counterexample emerged involving Roger Clemens. In general, the reception from fans and the media has been a slap on the wrist.

Sure, it's far from proven that Clemens used steroids but when there was similar "he said she said" un-confirmed evidence against Bonds, the reaction was outrage and in some cases, hatred.

Some arguments I've heard...

1. Clemens would have been great without the steroids...he just used them to extend his career and make a living.

Well, besides the fact that after his first 10 years of pitching, he probably made more money than all talksox members combined...Bonds also would have been great without steroids and had plenty of pure talent.

2. It isn't proven that Clemens used steroids.

As I said before, when Bonds had similar types of allegations, baseball fans pretty much assumed that he had used steroids. Will it really surprise anyone when it comes out that Clemens used steroids? Just look at his career.

3. Bonds was a jerk anyway. I would have given him a break if he wasn't such an arrogant SOB.

...and Clemens isn't?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/leastliked/readers/010815.html

Clemens is listed as the least likable baseball player including a comment saying,

This story is nothing new to me. One of my friends met Roger Clemens at a local restaraunt a few years back and he asked Clemens for his autograph. Roger refused and my friend also said he was rude.

Why are we not calling for Clemens milestones to have an asterik?
Why are we not questioning Clemens' HOF legitimacy?
Why is Clemens getting a free pass from the media and the overall MLB fan base, while Bonds went through years of hatred and ridicule?

The answer is as simple as color.

Color my ass. I'm so sick of people pulling the race card for EVERYTHING these days.

The reason no one's jumping is because it's still new. SURE people had suspected Clemens jucing long before the Mitchell report, just like people long suspected Bonds of jucing before the BALCO scandal. I think should another investigation occur with the federal courts, then more people will start the crusade against Clemens like they did on Bonds. And I hope they do. But I wish for ONCE people would quit pulling out the race card.

BoSox34 · December 17, 2007

Color my ass. I'm so sick of people pulling the race card for EVERYTHING these days.

The reason no one's jumping is because it's still new. SURE people had suspected Clemens jucing long before the Mitchell report, just like people long suspected Bonds of jucing before the BALCO scandal. I think should another investigation occur with the federal courts, then more people will start the crusade against Clemens like they did on Bonds. And I hope they do. But I wish for ONCE people would quit pulling out the race card.

Jason Grimley had also named Clemens and Pettite when he was questioned about steroids in baseball.

Jayhawk Bill · December 18, 2007

He didn't break a sacred record?

Clemens was the first...and second player to throw 20 strikeouts in a game, and that record still stands today.

He also has won the most Cy Young Awards ever with 7.

Sure, he didn't break arguably the two biggest records for pitchers but he was knocking on their doors and he still has achieved some pretty important records in his career.

Mere records, not sacred records.

C'mon...

61*

714

Everybody knew those.

TheKilo · December 18, 2007

There is one difference between the legacies of Clemends and Bonds and that is the color of their skin.

I remember hearing a discussion on WEEI about whether the media and fan reaction would be different if it Favre or Manning had been caught in the dog fighting scandal. The topic went on to question the reception if it had been A-Rod that was wrapped up in a steroid scandal, instead of Bonds. First off, I think this is a kind of skewed scenario because A-Rod is generally disliked by many fans and he is Dominican American so he isn't exactly "White".

What would the reaction have been re: Favre and Manning? Please, enlighten me.

Last week, the perfect counterexample emerged involving Roger Clemens. In general, the reception from fans and the media has been a slap on the wrist.

Really? It seems to me he's been raked over the coals. Bonds has had a book writeen about his steroid use. Clemens has 10+ pages. And you feel the treatment of Bonds has been incorrect? Really?

Sure, it's far from proven that Clemens used steroids but when there was similar "he said she said" un-confirmed evidence against Bonds, the reaction was outrage and in some cases, hatred.

Some arguments I've heard...

1. Clemens would have been great without the steroids...he just used them to extend his career and make a living.

Well, besides the fact that after his first 10 years of pitching, he probably made more money than all talksox members combined...Bonds also would have been great without steroids and had plenty of pure talent.

What are you trying to prove here? Both players didn't have to use steroids, and did. Both were stupid for doing so. Both will be tried in the court of public opinion because of steroids. One won't be favored over another.

2. It isn't proven that Clemens used steroids.

As I said before, when Bonds had similar types of allegations, baseball fans pretty much assumed that he had used steroids. Will it really surprise anyone when it comes out that Clemens used steroids? Just look at his career.

What are you trying to prove here? There's much more evidence against Bonds. There's been rumblings of steroids against Clemens for a while now.

There's been evidence against Bonds for years. Clemens for a week.

3. Bonds was a jerk anyway. I would have given him a break if he wasn't such an arrogant SOB.

...and Clemens isn't?

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/leastliked/readers/010815.html

Clemens is listed as the least likable baseball player including a comment saying,

What is your point here?

Why are we not calling for Clemens milestones to have an asterik?
Why are we not questioning Clemens' HOF legitimacy?
Why is Clemens getting a free pass from the media and the overall MLB fan base, while Bonds went through years of hatred and ridicule?

The answer is as simple as color.

Show me where Clemens has gotten a free pass from the fanbase, especially when you link to a story saying he's the least liked baseball player in the league?

We should question the legitimacy of his records, but to say we have as much evidence against him as we do Bonds is irresponsible, almost as irresponsible as playing the race card.

BoSox34 · December 18, 2007

What would the reaction have been re: Favre and Manning? Please, enlighten me.

Really? It seems to me he's been raked over the coals. Bonds has had a book writeen about his steroid use. Clemens has 10+ pages. And you feel the treatment of Bonds has been incorrect? Really?

What are you trying to prove here? Both players didn't have to use steroids, and did. Both were stupid for doing so. Both will be tried in the court of public opinion because of steroids. One won't be favored over another.

What are you trying to prove here? There's much more evidence against Bonds. There's been rumblings of steroids against Clemens for a while now.

There's been evidence against Bonds for years. Clemens for a week.

What is your point here?

Show me where Clemens has gotten a free pass from the fanbase, especially when you link to a story saying he's the least liked baseball player in the league?

We should question the legitimacy of his records, but to say we have as much evidence against him as we do Bonds is irresponsible, almost as irresponsible as playing the race card.

All I'm saying is that to a good amount of baseball fans, Bonds comes off as the arrogant black jerk who cheated to break a record, while Clemens is (especially when he first came into the league) the fiery, agressive power pitcher from Texas...and now I'm hearing some make the argument that he was using the steroids so he could stay in the league at a Clemens level, when I NEVER hear that argument made for Bonds. There's no stats or evidence I can add here, it's just a mindset that I've noticed recently. Please do not try to tell me that when Bonds had this level of evidence against him (specific stories, multiple sources), he had it easier than Clemens.

Also, I'm not the one who came up with the argument about the dog scnadal if it had been Favre or Manning. I heard it on the radio and there were some interesting points brought up.

I just want to see Clemens and Bonds with the same reprocussions and the same treatment from public opinion and the media, otherwise it leaves room for assumptions and judgements.

Thumper · December 18, 2007

I just want to see Clemens and Bonds with the same reprocussions and the same treatment from public opinion and the media' date=' otherwise it leaves room for assumptions and judgements.[/quote']

The only reason Bonds is under more scruitny now is because he's facing perjury charges. Clemens was never under a federal grand jury case. Therefore, where Bonds may go to jail AND lose his baseball records... Unless a new scandal investigation goes on to and then Clemens repeats Bonds's steps, he's only risking baseball stats.

So technically they will both lose the same on a baseball level. Bonds just happened to have been caught at the wrong time. There's NOTHING more to that. No skin color, no nothing but the arrogance and stupidity of a cheater.

TheKilo · December 18, 2007

All I'm saying is that to a good amount of baseball fans' date=' Bonds comes off as the arrogant black jerk who cheated to break a record, while Clemens is (especially when he first came into the league) the fiery, agressive power pitcher from Texas...[/quote']

Excuse me? You just linked to a story saying how much of a jackass Clemens was to the readers of ESPN. The perceptions of Bonds is the same but then again, Bonds has no interest in changing it. Much of the public persona of Bonds is his own fault.

and now I'm hearing some make the argument that he was using the steroids so he could stay in the league at a Clemens level, when I NEVER hear that argument made for Bonds. There's no stats or evidence I can add here, it's just a mindset that I've noticed recently. Please do not try to tell me that when Bonds had this level of evidence against him (specific stories, multiple sources), he had it easier than Clemens.

You have no concrete evidence to add, and cite a "mindset." No one is saying Clemens is having it tougher than Bonds, but you make it seem like no one is criticizing Clemens, which is untrue. Also, we have had years of evidence built against Bonds and this is the first real concrete evidence against Clemens.

Using the race card is completely irresponsible especially considering the lack of evidence you bring to the table.

Also, I'm not the one who came up with the argument about the dog scnadal if it had been Favre or Manning. I heard it on the radio and there were some interesting points brought up.

What were the points brought up? Enlighten me. It seems like you'd agree with them if they are based off of color.

I just want to see Clemens and Bonds with the same reprocussions and the same treatment from public opinion and the media, otherwise it leaves room for assumptions and judgements.

Then I'd advise you wait more than a week to pull the race card. Again, completely irresponsible.

Jayhawk Bill · December 18, 2007

The only reason Bonds is under more scruitny now is because he's facing perjury charges. Clemens was never under a federal grand jury case. Therefore, where Bonds may go to jail AND lose his baseball records... Unless a new scandal investigation goes on to and then Clemens repeats Bonds's steps, he's only risking baseball stats.

So technically they will both lose the same on a baseball level. Bonds just happened to have been caught at the wrong time. There's NOTHING more to that. No skin color, no nothing but the arrogance and stupidity of a cheater.

Why wasn't Clemens ever asked to testify regarding steroid use? He appears to have information, just as Bonds and Sheffield and Giambi apparently did once upon a time. Why not get him to testify now regarding his suppliers, under oath--or to deny steroid use under oath?

While we're at it, why isn't Palmeiro being brought up on perjury charges for lying under oath to Congress? He's actually tested positive for steroids--all that exists for Bonds is allegations of use. Why did the inquiry into potential perjury stop with the decision that the drug test he failed didn't reflect blood levels prior to testimony, with no investigation of prior teammates and trainers?

"Let me start by telling you this," Palmeiro said in his opening statement, looking directly at Davis and pointing at the committee chairman with his index finger. "I have never used steroids, period."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43422-2005Mar17.html

I still see Bonds as a scapegoat. YMMV.

BoSox34 · December 18, 2007

Excuse me? You just linked to a story saying how much of a jackass Clemens was to the readers of ESPN. The perceptions of Bonds is the same but then again, Bonds has no interest in changing it. Much of the public persona of Bonds is his own fault.

You have no concrete evidence to add, and cite a "mindset." No one is saying Clemens is having it tougher than Bonds, but you make it seem like no one is criticizing Clemens, which is untrue. Also, we have had years of evidence built against Bonds and this is the first real concrete evidence against Clemens.

Using the race card is completely irresponsible especially considering the lack of evidence you bring to the table.

What were the points brought up? Enlighten me. It seems like you'd agree with them if they are based off of color.

Then I'd advise you wait more than a week to pull the race card. Again, completely irresponsible.

You are of firm belief that racism plays no factor in this situation so I am not going to bother arguing about it with you. I agree with JayHawkBill that Bonds is a scapegoat in the whole thing. There are many other players who were wrapped up in the Steroids era who also had great amounts of success, including Sosa, McGwire, and Clemens, however Bonds seems to get the most hatred. Some of which is because of his success, but there could be other reasons...

Also, that ESPN article includes many Red Sox fans who were mad at Clemens for leaving Boston, which is dumb. It's a business...I can understand that. I was referencing the part about how he refused to sign an autograph for free, which is similar to what happened to my friend. This reinforces the fact that he is just as big of a jerk as Bonds.

TheKilo · December 18, 2007

You are of firm belief that racism plays no factor in this situation so I am not going to bother arguing about it with you. I agree with JayHawkBill that Bonds is a scapegoat in the whole thing. There are many other players who were wrapped up in the Steroids era who also had great amounts of success' date=' including Sosa, McGwire, and Clemens, however Bonds seems to get the most hatred. Some of which is because of his success, but there could be other reasons...[/quote']

I never said that. I said at this point in the game, with the lack of time that has passed since Clemens has been named, it is completely unrealistic and irresponsible to expect the same rancor for Clemens that has been directed at Bonds.

Would you not agree that much of the hatred for Bonds is his own doing?

Also, that ESPN article includes many Red Sox fans who were mad at Clemens for leaving Boston, which is dumb. It's a business...I can understand that. I was referencing the part about how he refused to sign an autograph for free, which is similar to what happened to my friend. This reinforces the fact that he is just as big of a jerk as Bonds.

Wow, he refuses to sign an autograph? And that makes him a jerk?

How dare professional athletes live their own lives. They should cater to the fans at every whim.

If you referenced Clemens' outward arrogance, or the games he starts every season with new contracts, or his relations with the media, etc. It may hold more weight. But to reference one personal anecdote? About how he wouldn't sign an autograph for free? Not a very strong argument, but hey, that appears to be your MO.

BoSox34 · December 18, 2007

I never said that. I said at this point in the game, with the lack of time that has passed since Clemens has been named, it is completely unrealistic and irresponsible to expect the same rancor for Clemens that has been directed at Bonds.

Would you not agree that much of the hatred for Bonds is his own doing?

Wow, he refuses to sign an autograph? And that makes him a jerk?

How dare professional athletes live their own lives. They should cater to the fans at every whim.

If you referenced Clemens' outward arrogance, or the games he starts every season with new contracts, or his relations with the media, etc. It may hold more weight. But to reference one personal anecdote? About how he wouldn't sign an autograph for free? Not a very strong argument, but hey, that appears to be your MO.

Maybe it's just me, but I classify a professional athlete as a jerk if they not only can't take the 3 seconds it takes to sign their name on a piece of paper at a restaraunt for a middle school kid but also proceeds to be rude to them. Pretty low move, in my opinion.

The baseball related stuff such as starting seasons late is just business. Sleazy business? Yes. But enough to classify a person as a jerk? Not quite.

Jayhawk Bill · December 18, 2007

Would you not agree that much of the hatred for Bonds is his own doing?

No.

I would agree that SOME of the hatred for Bonds is his own doing. He was a prick way back in his NCAA days, and I expect that he's still got some of that going today.

But the media has been cruel to Barry Bonds, right from the start in his Pittsburgh days, and there's no reason that McGwire and Sosa should've been lionized while Bonds was viewed more cynically. Things only got worse--I've yet to see any major media outlet comment that Bonds's character was smeared by a highly illegal leak of grand jury testimony, and I've read lots of coverage highly critical of Bonds's own character. When there are two true sides to a story, and only one is reported, it's a sign of bias. Bonds is a victim of that bias--maybe not a sympathetic victim, but a victim. Much of the public's hatred of Bonds stems from that media coverage.

***

TheKilo, you're a student of the game. How would you expect the son of Bobby Bonds to grow up? Bobby Bonds was an unheralded superstar, shuttled by trade from pitcher's ballpark to pitcher's ballpark so fast that he never generated a fan base after leaving San Francisco, and because he played in low-scoring home fields just after the Second Deadball Era, it wasn't until some years after he retired that people realized that he had put together a career just shy of HOF consideration in only 14 years.

I personally believe that Barry Bonds was chasing the glory that he believed that his father should've earned, and I believe that he got fed up when Canseco and Clemens and Sosa and McGwire were hogging the spotlight. If so, that doesn't make steroid abuse right (and I certainly believe that Bonds abused steroids). It may, however, offer a better perspective than that of an arrogant rich man deciding that his tens of millions weren't enough and that he'd break the law to get more money, to get more fame, and to make other people look bad.

Either perspective may be true. I lean in the direction of forgiving those who used PEDs, given that MLB and the MLBPA had collaborated to implicitly condone their use, and that any given player couldn't easily fight both the owners and the union. I certainly understand others' harsher perspectives, too.

Mr Crunchy · December 18, 2007

bonds is the best ball player i have ever seen

bonds put more money in more undeserving peoples pockets than halliburton

consider

matt williams andy van slyke bobby bonilla jeff kent etc...

all these guys,possibly with the exception of williams made a killing hitting with this guy in the same lineup and then failed miserably when bb was gone.

he is an unapologetic *******

but

if they gave my mvp award to terry fukin pendleton as they did in 92? to bonds i wouldnt be kind to the people who f***ed me,nobody in their right mind would..

he is the best ball player i have ever seen

roger clemens,aka mrs david stewart,ws a great pitcher for a long time but was never THE MAN i would want out there if i needed 1 game to win it all..

even in 86 we had better options when the chips were down.....and that speaks volumes about his character or lack there of

26 to 6 · December 18, 2007

The answer is as simple as color.

Heritage may be a factor.

I'm going to have to echo Thumper's statements and say that the color of Barry Bonds' skin has NOTHING to do with it. The reason he gets the treatment he does is because he's arrogant, egotistical, rude, shits on the fans, shits on the media, etc. I dont care if you're black, white, green, yellow, or purple; that combination of personality traits is gonna have a heavy influence on a negative image. In this day in age race is hardly a pressing issue in America, and having to hear all the African-American activists cry race for everything makes me SICK. Don't get me wrong, there are stil racists in this country, and racism still exists, but to a far less degree. I mean, this isn't the 1950's, 1960's and on, it's 2005. In America we have the most diverse population in the world, and for the most part we are all tolerable of one another. Hearing the likes of Jesse Jackson, and in sports; Barry Bonds cry the race card everytime some sort of controversy occurs regarding a member of that race is I think shameful. Whites, Asians, Muslims, etc. get surrounded with controversy as well, they just don't cry about it. It's a matter of specific circumstances, not race. If you mug and rape somebody, no matter what color you are, there's going to be legal and public backlash. When a minority living in an urban setting does it, thr activists all cry that the black youth living in the ghettoes are being targeted. ********. And now, more than ever, Barry Bonds's statements regarding his treatment being accredited to his race is losing water, considering the likes of Clemens and Pettitte and the public backlash they're facing.

Basically, people need to grow up and find better excuses/explanations than the race card. I appologize if I offended anyone, as that was not my intention; but this issue infuriates me.

26 to 6 · December 18, 2007

But the media has been cruel to Barry Bonds, right from the start in his Pittsburgh days

Bonds wasn't exactly the nicest guy himself though.

Jayhawk Bill · December 19, 2007

I'm going to have to echo Thumper's statements and say that the color of Barry Bonds' skin has NOTHING to do with it. The reason he gets the treatment he does is because he's arrogant, egotistical, rude, shits on the fans, shits on the media, etc. I dont care if you're black, white, green, yellow, or purple; that combination of personality traits is gonna have a heavy influence on a negative image. In this day in age race is hardly a pressing issue in America, and having to hear all the African-American activists cry race for everything makes me SICK. Don't get me wrong, there are stil racists in this country, and racism still exists, but to a far less degree. I mean, this isn't the 1950's, 1960's and on, it's 2005. In America we have the most diverse population in the world, and for the most part we are all tolerable of one another. Hearing the likes of Jesse Jackson, and in sports; Barry Bonds cry the race card everytime some sort of controversy occurs regarding a member of that race is I think shameful. Whites, Asians, Muslims, etc. get surrounded with controversy as well, they just don't cry about it. It's a matter of specific circumstances, not race. If you mug and rape somebody, no matter what color you are, there's going to be legal and public backlash. When a minority living in an urban setting does it, thr activists all cry that the black youth living in the ghettoes are being targeted. ********. And now, more than ever, Barry Bonds's statements regarding his treatment being accredited to his race is losing water, considering the likes of Clemens and Pettitte and the public backlash they're facing.

Basically, people need to grow up and find better excuses/explanations than the race card. I appologize if I offended anyone, as that was not my intention; but this issue infuriates me.

Dunno...if you say, "Don't get me wrong, there are stil racists in this country, and racism still exists," then my quote out of context that you chose--"Heritage may be a factor"--doesn't sound too different than what you're admitting.

Bonds wasn't exactly the nicest guy himself though.

I don't dispute that. Hey, I posted, "He was a prick way back in his NCAA days, and I expect that he's still got some of that going today."

But why is Sheffield getting so much of an easier time? Gary Sheffield is a violent f***ing *******. Google and you get 17 hits. Google and you get 3,760 hits. It's not even close.

How about flaming ******* Roger Clemens? 204 hits. Well, I guess that Sheffield can't pull out the race card. :rolleyes: But it's still about 6% of the abuse that Bonds gets.

I think that it's the media, plus the record, plus MLB and the MLBPA making him a scapegoat. Race may possibly play a factor--it's tough to say, because there are so few comparables to Bonds.

But there are lots of jerks in the Mitchell Report. Bonds is taking a disproportionate share of the heat.

IMO. YMMV.

YAZMAN · December 19, 2007

How about flaming ******* Roger Clemens? 204 hits. Well' date=' I guess that Sheffield can't pull out the race card. But it's still about 6% of the abuse that Bonds gets.[/quote']

6%? How did you come up with that?

Is there a B-O-O or an R-A-G metric I don't know about?

Jayhawk Bill · December 19, 2007

6%? How did you come up with that?

Is there a B-O-O or an R-A-G metric I don't know about?

Check the hits I posted for Google searching a key phrase suggesting that somewhere in cyberspace somebody might've posted something suggesting that Clemens or Bonds got what they deserved with respect to steroids. 204/3760 = 5.4% I rounded up.

YAZMAN · December 19, 2007

Check the hits I posted for Google searching a key phrase suggesting that somewhere in cyberspace somebody might've posted something suggesting that Clemens or Bonds got what they deserved with respect to steroids. 204/3760 = 5.4% I rounded up.

I don't have enough time to finish reading some of your posts let alone check on your references.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that Bill James reads your posts.

ORS · December 19, 2007

Does the google hit count on Bonds limit the results to the first two weeks after the story broke? Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think 4 years vs. 2 weeks will lead to more hits.

Mr Crunchy · December 19, 2007

just call him an uppity nigger thumper

that would essentially end the discussion and put him in his place.

I AM KIDDING

but not really.

racism dead in america eh

where do you live?

i look at my morning papers police report out here in metro west

the entire police report is full of brazilian kids getting stopped for motor vehicle violations

the cops arent solving crime,theyre not busting dope dealers or solving b@e's

theyre profiling dark skinned latino kids who are drivng because theyre generally easy targets to pop...

it isnt good police work,its f***ing racism.

good job

you got that guy for not having an inspection sticker!

immigration issues are now trumping the black white issues at this time and if you read thru the political niceness it is saying GET THE CHICANOS OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

i get a kick out of the lady in front of me

mrs dmochosky who moved into my home town 20 years ago

""THESE GODDAM FOREIGNERS ARE RUINING THIS COUNTRY""

really bev?

are you a native algonquin indian or did you come over on the mayflower??

as far as im concerned youre the carpetbagging foreigner.

my town was all italian until you goddam foreigners moved in and now i cant find a decent piece of salami for 20 f***ing miles because of you latte sipping carpetbaggers.

MY PEOPLE CAME HERE LEGALLY!!

********

your people came in at the bottom of a f***ing boat as outcast slime and to think otherwise is rather naive not to mention wrong.

or what about the falcons owners last comments?

IF MIKE VICK DONT EAT TOO MUCH FRIED CHICKEN WE MAY CONSIDER BRINGING HIM BACK...hmmmmmn no water mellon??

we're not lynching anymore and thats a good thing

that said i work in a building of 2000 people

1 black lady works in the mailroom,1 spanish chick works in parts,1 chinese kid works the warehouse....we hired a black dude as a temp,guy did a great job was well liked and on time every day.....as soon as some incompetant white person applied for the full time gig he was tossed out on his ass.

check out the banking industry and how they profile neighborhoods for lending purposes

look at the police efforts in solving murder in dorchester compared to say milton or even quincy..2 different worlds we live in,1 for whites and 1 for minorities.

we've made great strides in these areas but we arent even close to being where we need to be.

das11209 · December 19, 2007

just call him an uppity nigger thumper
that would essentially end the discussion and put him in his place.
I AM KIDDING
but not really.

racism dead in america eh
where do you live?
i look at my morning papers police report out here in metro west
the entire police report is full of brazilian kids getting stopped for motor vehicle violations
the cops arent solving crime,theyre not busting dope dealers or solving b@e's
theyre profiling dark skinned latino kids who are drivng because theyre generally easy targets to pop...
it isnt good police work,its f***ing racism.
good job
you got that guy for not having an inspection sticker!

immigration issues are now trumping the black white issues at this time and if you read thru the political niceness it is saying GET THE CHICANOS OUT OF THE COUNTRY.

i get a kick out of the lady in front of me
mrs dmochosky who moved into my home town 20 years ago
""THESE GODDAM FOREIGNERS ARE RUINING THIS COUNTRY""
really bev?
are you a native algonquin indian or did you come over on the mayflower??
as far as im concerned youre the carpetbagging foreigner.
my town was all italian until you goddam foreigners moved in and now i cant find a decent piece of salami for 20 f***ing miles because of you latte sipping carpetbaggers.

MY PEOPLE CAME HERE LEGALLY!!
********
your people came in at the bottom of a f***ing boat as outcast slime and to think otherwise is rather naive not to mention wrong.

or what about the falcons owners last comments?
IF MIKE VICK DONT EAT TOO MUCH FRIED CHICKEN WE MAY CONSIDER BRINGING HIM BACK...hmmmmmn no water mellon??

we're not lynching anymore and thats a good thing
that said i work in a building of 2000 people
1 black lady works in the mailroom,1 spanish chick works in parts,1 chinese kid works the warehouse....we hired a black dude as a temp,guy did a great job was well liked and on time every day.....as soon as some incompetant white person applied for the full time gig he was tossed out on his ass.
check out the banking industry and how they profile neighborhoods for lending purposes
look at the police efforts in solving murder in dorchester compared to say milton or even quincy..2 different worlds we live in,1 for whites and 1 for minorities.
we've made great strides in these areas but we arent even close to being where we need to be.

One of Crunchies best post....As a minority(Indian) who has lived in this country for more than 10 years and have embraced the American culture and values and love this country to death - it is naive to think that racism is dead. Yeah - there may not be any segregation lawsany more - but it does exist in people's heart that no law can reach. Also- if you are not a minority ( white in this case or black if you are in Zimbabawe) - it is absolutely impossible for you to even understand the racism. You at work or your kids at school have never been adversely affected - how would you know - so just keep your racism opinion to yourself and don't air it out. Your promotion or your kids grades have never suffered just because who you are or where you come from. That said - I am all against bitching about racism. It exist and it will exist and the minority will just have to deal with it. They will have to work extra hard to overcome the hurdles put together and win over the majority people - not confront them. Sharpton and Jackson's of this country are not there to solve the minority problem - they are there for personal benifits.

Mr Crunchy · December 19, 2007

for the record

jesse jacksons and al sharpton dont have jobs

theyre leacherous thieving **********s who are no better than the stick up guys with guns

theyre extortionists blackmail masters and shakedown artists.

if I pulled some of the s*** they get away with i wouldve been jailed a long time ago

give me louis farrakhan any day of the week over those 2 scumbags

at least i know where i stand with calypso louie

hes the only black leader that i know of who tells his men to stop knocking up their little girls,get off the dope and stop putting your hand out to whitey for your living.

in other words

ACT LIKE A MAN

he tends to tell it like it is which i respect even if i dont agree with it.

he maybe a bigot and a hate monger but he calls spades spades and in this world of sissies and fairies and men with tender feelings i find this quite refreshing.

thank you for the kind words das

how many of those THANK YOU COME AGAIN remarks do you hear behind your back in a day?...theyre just words but words sting and over a course of time would drive you nuts...

if you think racism is dead you need to see fox tv and how they portray the irish and catholics in shows like the simpsons and family guy.....drunk,disheveled,wife beaters etc.....

prehistoric thinkers.....i take it in with a grain of salt

i forgive everyone but i forget nothing

TheKilo · December 19, 2007

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2007/12/19/is_he_just_in_a_state_of_denial/?page=full

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=3160231&sportCat=mlb

Thumper · December 19, 2007

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2007/12/19/is_he_just_in_a_state_of_denial/?page=full

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=3160231&sportCat=mlb

Did Pettitte make Clemens look bad?

I'd say Clemens made himself look bad all by himself just fine.

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