Torre lied

[rician blast]

Yeah, VA, 2003. See...head still fkd up thanks to that fkn John Walton look-alike. If I ever see him I'm gonna tell him I did his daughter Mary-Ellen and that his son John-Boy was blowing Jim-Bob behind the wood shed.

 

Jacks, if post-season is all that matters in the Bronx, who is going to be left to play for the Yankees next year?

[chacha]

Yeah' date=' VA, 2003. See...head still fkd up thanks to that fkn John Walton look-alike. If I ever see him I'm gonna tell him I did his daughter Mary-Ellen and that his son John-Boy was blowing Jim-Bob behind the wood shed. [/quote']

 

 

OMG!

 

:lol:

[example1]

The endorsements always diminish after retirement. When is the last time you saw a Bo Jackson commercial.

Joe will fast become yesterdays news. He'll miss that $5 million and he'll regret having walked away from his dream job-- his identity. What a schmuck. He reacted emotionally, like a petulant child. Goodbye Joe.

 

What did you say about Johnny Damon leaving the Red Sox? I thought you said he was justified in doing it because they weren't offering him what he was worth and that this was a mistake by the Red Sox. That was you, right?

 

The situations are quite similar and while it might be disappointing that Joe-Damon didn't return to NY/BOS with a paycut, it is understandable.

 

I really don't think you need to worry about Joe Torre's career. I find it comical that you're so sure he'll be missing the money more than the game itself.

[example1]

you guys are missing the point.

 

He was ready to accept a 1 yr deal for 4.5mil in ST. He had an interesting regular season, but nothing in the postseason that changed anything and as we know, you are measured by postseason performance in NY. He was then offered a 5mil deal (note, raise of 500K) with incentives to make him double the initial deal offered in ST. And then he leaves saying he was insulted, when he was actually offered more than he would have accepted in ST after having a season that really wasnt one of his best.

 

At no point does he say that the money was the issue. In fact, he freely acknowledges that the pay was good.

 

You never seem to address this:

 

Said Torre: "It was dismissed real quickly. It was either the offer or nothing. I just felt the contract offer, the terms of the contract were probably the thing I had the toughest time with. The one year, for one thing. The incentives, for another thing. The fact I've been here 12 years and I didn't think motivation was needed."

 

Torre also felt a one-year contract would add pressure for the players, knowing their manager had his job on the line.

 

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-sptorre1020,0,446404.story

 

At least admit that this is something the Yankees WANTED to do. It's not like they made the offer in good faith and were completely shocked and taken off-guard by Torre's rejection.

 

Please explain why you keep talking about salary, when Torre complained that

1. There were incentives to do something he's done every year

2. The deal was for only 1 year

 

If the Yankees saw Torre as the best available manager they would have aggressively and relentlessly pursued him, throwing everything at him they can. Obviously they didn't do that, which tells me that they think there are better options out there. It told Torre the same thing and he said "screw it."

[jacksonianmarch]

example, he was willing to accept the 1 yr extension in March, what changes now?

[Mr Crunchy]

example' date=' he was willing to accept the 1 yr extension in March, what changes now?[/quote']

 

he saw the future of this franchise and debated on killing himself??

[ORS]

We get it, Jacko. You have a need to bury it in up to the hilt in his back as he's on the way out.

 

What changed? Well, it's been a year, and none of us are in the clubhouse nor do we get to sit in on the meetings or eavesdrop on the phone calls. All you need to know for change verification is that something happened to make his opinion vary. That is of course, if you are willing to accept the leaked "agreement" is legit. No chance that's a saving face move.

[jacksonianmarch]

he saw the future of this franchise and debated on killing himself??

 

the future of the franchise is very solid. It is the short term that is on rocky ground.

[VA Sox Fan]

the future of the franchise is very solid. It is the short term that is on rocky ground.

 

 

But Hank Steinbrenner may be a bigger tool than his father. Why wasn't he in the picture until The Felon's daughter got divorced?

[jacksonianmarch]

But Hank Steinbrenner may be a bigger tool than his father. Why wasn't he in the picture until The Felon's daughter got divorced?

 

That is total speculation. Yeah he might be. Or, he might let Cashman and Oppenheimer run the development and baseball decision while he steps into the background as the figurehead.

 

To answer your second question, he didnt want to be in the baseball business. He was set to run George's major business (i believe it is in shipyards). He's a businessman who may or may not have George's fervor for the big ticket item. That will help for now, but may be a problem later on.

[example1]

the future of the franchise is very solid. It is the short term that is on rocky ground.

 

What changed? Well, Torre was publicly called out in the midst of a great run with a disfunctional, non-pitching-laden team, by the team's owner, sparking the entire nation to discuss whether or not Torre should be canned/not-resigned based on winning a WS. In no way was he honored for his 4 championships and multiple AL Pennants. He got shafted multiple times in the last 365 days, and was raked over the coal by guys like you.

 

Given that, I'm sure Torre was anxious to gauge exactly what the response would be of the "new" ownership/decision making group. When they offered him only 1 year and refused to negotiate he knew that the ownership had started believing the anti-Torre core and that was that.

 

Yes, it is the short term that is on rocky ground and they would have asked Joe to

 

a) lead the team through success in the short term and..

 

do so while expecting to be canned if things don't go as the Yankees wish they would next season, just like he expected to be canned for not winning the World Series... you know, with the whole "Torre won't be back if he doesn't win" comment by the team's owner.

 

While the future of the franchise is very solid, I don't see it as being as good as the Red Sox future at this point, and that is who the Yankees will need to beat. I expect them to be aggressive and get good players, but the future--while looking good--doesn't not contain all the sick young talent the Red Sox have.

 

So a good looking future may STILL mean not winning World Series.

[jacksonianmarch]

the good young talent is squarely in our corner. Where we cannot match you at this point is the lights out ace that you guys now possess.

[a700hitter]

What did you say about Johnny Damon leaving the Red Sox? I thought you said he was justified in doing it because they weren't offering him what he was worth and that this was a mistake by the Red Sox. That was you, right?

 

The situations are quite similar and while it might be disappointing that Joe-Damon didn't return to NY/BOS with a paycut, it is understandable.

The fundamental difference between Damon and Torre is that there was a market for Damon. He had an offer from the Yankees. The Yankees were the market for Torre. There are no other $5 million offers on the table for him

 

I really don't think you need to worry about Joe Torre's career. I find it comical that you're so sure he'll be missing the money more than the game itself.

Worried? Why would I worry about him. I don't even know him. IMO he made a stupid business decision, and he was a punk about it on the way out.

[Mr Crunchy]

who was don gaston and what did his son do to the celts

[a700hitter]

the good young talent is squarely in our corner. Where we cannot match you at this point is the lights out ace that you guys now possess.

The lights out ace that we possess is only 27 and our other 15 game winning rookie is the same age, and next years starting CF is young too as is our ROY candidate at second base.

[rician blast]

the good young talent is squarely in our corner. Where we cannot match you at this point is the lights out ace that you guys now possess.

 

Please be more specific...exactly who is it that you are referring to?

[ORS]

The lights out ace that we possess is only 27 and our other 15 game winning rookie is the same age' date=' and next years starting CF is young too as is our ROY candidate at second base.[/quote']

And our closer, one of the best in baseball, is 26. Then there's the kid likely to start next season as the best pitching prospect in baseball who threw a no-no in his 2nd big league start.

[jacksonianmarch]

And our closer' date=' one of the best in baseball, is 26. Then there's the kid likely to start next season as the best pitching prospect in baseball who threw a no-no in his 2nd big league start.[/quote']

 

I didnt know you guys had Joba?

[jacksonianmarch]

I was mostly speaking of the rookies this season and the farm in general. But I see your point.

 

In terms of rotation, I dont think anyone can argue with the fact that we have the best farm system pitching prospects in the game. Hughes, Kennedy, Joba start off the list and it continues pretty darn far. But at the same time, none of them are Beckett right now and therein lies the trump card.

 

Also, Papelbon is a nice trump card to have too. He is a dirty closer and will be for quite some time.

[a700hitter]

I didnt know you guys had Joba?

Joba hasn't had a ML start, nevermind a no-hitter. Joba's the guy with the 4+ ERA in the post season who blew the crucial game of the ALDS.

[TheKilo]

the good young talent is squarely in our corner. Where we cannot match you at this point is the lights out ace that you guys now possess.

 

http://www.lolwut.com/layout/lolwut.jpg

[jacksonianmarch]

Lets be honest here. In terms of young players on each team that are not prospects...

 

Yankees: Cano, Melky, Wang

Red Sox: DiceK, Beckett, Pedroia, Papelbon

 

Take a look at that list. The biggest trump card in that list is Beckett. That is what we cannot match even with the veteran club. In terms of Papelbon, we can at least match him with a veteran for now. Beckett is your trump card. There isnt much comparison in the above crew. Cano is probably a better bet than Pedroia because of his power. Wang is not Beckett, but is probably a better bet than DiceK at this juncture. Melky will probably be a fine CFer on both ends. But what we cannot match is that lights out, shut down starter that has guaranteed you guys victory after victory in postseason play. We dont have that. We might develop it, but we currently dont have that.

 

But when I use the term prospects, I exclude the guys who have a bit of a track record. So. Lets play a match game with the top prospects in the system...

 

Yankees vs Sox

Joba>Buchholz. Lets not be naive here, Joba has once in a lifetime stuff and dominated all levels of the minors as a starter and then was absolutely untouchable in relief. Buchholz did the same thing by throwing a no-no. But, on stuff alone, this isnt even close.

 

Hughes>Lester. Another no brainer. Hughes K'd 8 per 9IP and walked around 3 per 9. His WHIP of 1.28 in an injury plagued season as a 20 yr old is also damn good. Lester, OTOH, had more walks, less K's, and more HRs allowed in fewer innings.

 

Kennedy>Masterson. Lets not pull any punches here. This isnt even close. Masterson projects as a reliever, while Kennedy looks about as solid a bet to be a mid rotation starter and has already had MLB success.

 

Ellsbury>Jackson. Ellsbury rocketed through the system and caught fire in the bigs. His projection is limited in terms of power, but he certainly looks like the real deal. For us, Austin Jackson went from being the young kid with a lot of unrealized potential, to the highest rocketing OF prospect in baseball. He is a true 5 tool talent who will likely be starring in AA to start and could be in the bigs in 08.

 

Horne>Bowden. Again, not very close. Horne was the EL pitcher of the yr and led in nearly all categories, while Bowden had a tough time adjusting to the league

 

In terms of Jed Lowrie, we dont have an upper level infielder with much pizzazz, so that one is a given. Might be different once we see this Angelini kid, but you sure have an advantage in M-IF prospects.

 

more to come

[ORS]

If fat Joba is demonstrably better than Buchholz, then why didn't he outperform him in the EL this year? Every scouting comp I've seen of the two is either in slight favor of Buchholz or calls it a push. Yet, we are supposed to believe they've got it all wrong because this one time at band camp Jacko played Div III college ball (supposedly) and he thinks it isn't close? Please. Buck can attack the zone with 3 or 4 pitches on any given night. Chubby bunny is a two trick pony at this point with little polish. If, big if, Chamberlain is able to master 4 pitches and bring them to the mound, then yes, he'll be better. His raw stuff is better than Buck's. So is Daniel Cabrera's. Doesn't make him a better pitcher, or prospect now.

[jacksonianmarch]

If fat Joba is demonstrably better than Buchholz' date=' then why didn't he outperform him in the EL this year? Every scouting comp I've seen of the two is either in slight favor of Buchholz or calls it a push. Yet, we are supposed to believe they've got it all wrong because this one time at band camp Jacko played Div III college ball (supposedly) and he thinks it isn't close? Please. Buck can attack the zone with 3 or 4 pitches on any given night. Chubby bunny is a two trick pony at this point with little polish. If, big if, Chamberlain is able to master 4 pitches and bring them to the mound, then yes, he'll be better. His raw stuff is better than Buck's. So is Daniel Cabrera's. Doesn't make him a better pitcher, or prospect now.[/quote']

 

Lets see. It was Joba's first professional season to Buch's second and Buch is a yr older. Also, most people with brains know that you gauge a pitching prospect by their stuff, and can you honestly sit there and say that Buchholz has better stuff. AND, Joba does have a 4 pitch arsenal with 3 pitches that are plus, just like Buchholz, except Joba throws it harder with just as much location. Fool yourself all you want, Joba is not a Daniel Cabrera. Far from it. Look at the numbers before you spout dumb stuff like that.

[ORS]

I never said he was, nitwit. Cabrera was brought up as the prime example of why it's not just about "stuff". Thus the crux of your argument fails miserably. Joba does one thing better than Buchholz, which is throw harder. That's it. The people who get paid to do this stuff rate them from equal to Buch slighly better. Those are the pros, what are your creds to get me to buy this ******** "stuff" argument?

[Gom]

No one really knows how Chamberlain, Buchholz, Hughes, Kennedy, Lester, et al. Will do. The only constant is Beckett and Papelbon and Cano. The rest is just hope. Good hope, yes. I wouldn't be surprised if Kennedy is the best of the bunch when all is said and done.

[jacksonianmarch]

There are two "experts" on record thinking that one of the yankees duo of Hughes and Chamberlain is better than Buchholz.

 

Keith Law thinks Joba is better than Buchholz

Jim Callis thinks Hughes is better than Buchholz

 

I am still doing a lit search, but I would assume that the new wave of predictions will be coming around this offseason. Gammons thinks Joba is head and shoulders better than any rookie in the game. He went as far as saying that Chamberlain has the best stuff in all of baseball, major or minor league.

[Gom]

Why don't we let them complete a full season before we put them in the Hall of Fame. None of these guys had the hype of King Felix, and with a few exceptions, he's been ordinary.

[ORS]

There are two "experts" on record thinking that one of the yankees duo of Hughes and Chamberlain is better than Buchholz.

 

Keith Law thinks Joba is better than Buchholz

Jim Callis thinks Hughes is better than Buchholz

 

I am still doing a lit search, but I would assume that the new wave of predictions will be coming around this offseason. Gammons thinks Joba is head and shoulders better than any rookie in the game. He went as far as saying that Chamberlain has the best stuff in all of baseball, major or minor league.

Oh, so Gammons doesn't have his head up his ass if he's being complimentary of Yankees? I get it.

 

Keith Law is not a scout. He's a reporter. Callis thought that at the beginning of the year. Like you said, we'll see where they rate by the scouting sites come the new year. I'm only interested in the this because I think you are wrong about calling this a clear cut case of who's better. I think they are very close to equal. Better raw stuff from Chamberlain. Buch's the better pitcher. That should still count for something. Kennedy will rate higher than Horne for a reason. It's isn't just about the radar gun.

[ORS]

Why don't we let them complete a full season before we put them in the Hall of Fame. None of these guys had the hype of King Felix' date=' and with a few exceptions, he's been ordinary.[/quote']

I was going to bring him up. His "stuff" is off the charts good. Video game movement on everything. Can't pitch though.