Tavarez - time to go to the pen

[TheKilo]

I think Julian has done an excellent job this year. I just think that it's time for him to go to the pen not because of his recent ineffectiveness, but because of the amount of innings he has pitched. He's closing in on 100 I think and that is a lot for a guy who's been in the bullpen for the last 5 or 6 years.

 

Bring Lester up.

[Cityofchampions33]

I think Julian has done an excellent job this year. I just think that it's time for him to go to the pen not because of his recent ineffectiveness, but because of the amount of innings he has pitched. He's closing in on 100 I think and that is a lot for a guy who's been in the bullpen for the last 5 or 6 years.

 

Bring Lester up.

 

Agreed, he has fallen back down to earth, and can still be efeective in the pen. I ahven't bene keeping tabs on lester, but I assume he's not getting shelled.

[schillingouttheks]

The JT Experiment has been great and I applaud him for everything he's done this year.

 

That said, he's gotta go back to the pen. Maybe he has even showcased himself well enough to be traded for something in return. But he does not have a spot in this rotation anymore. Bring up Lester who could give us exactly what Tavarez has been giving us and hope for the best. Lester hasn't been doing as well as we'd like in AAA, but he'll do for now.

[redsoxrules]

lester would give us the same as tavarez does....5 innings, we need something else

[jacksonianmarch]

he wont be traded for anything valuable. As Kilo correctly noted, JT hasnt been a full season starter for a long time and the 100 innings threshold may be too difficult to cross at this juncture.

 

That being said, Lester hasnt lit up AAA like many think he has. His ERA is 3.90 which is okay, but his 1.36WHIP and his recent ineptitude should keep him in AAA for a while longer.

 

Over his last 7 starts, here are his #s

 

2-4 6.00ERA 36IP 42H 24ER 28K 20BB for a WHIP of 1.72.

 

He is fatiguing as expected and is pitching like s***. Bringing up Lester would be an awful idea.

[schillingouttheks]

lester would give us the same as tavarez does....5 innings' date=' we need something else[/quote']

 

Exactly. So why not bring him up? Lester has more upside and has already pitched in the majors. He hasn't looked great in AAA but isn't it worth taking a shot at catching lightning in a bottle and seeing if Lester can correct himself? And potentially become a better contributer than Tavarez?

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly. So why not bring him up? Lester has more upside and has already pitched in the majors. He hasn't looked great in AAA but isn't it worth taking a shot at catching lightning in a bottle and seeing if Lester can correct himself? And potentially become a better contributer than Tavarez?

 

he is tiring, look at the numbers I posted. Lester might need to have the reigns pulled back and prolong his ETA until 2008. He isnt ready, and likely wont be ready this season. Bringing him up right now could ruin him as a prospect.

[Rdsxmbnt]

Lester is definetly not ready. He's been striking out guys lately and making some progress but he's still walking too many guys, I dont think he's mentally ready to be called up either.

[Cityofchampions33]

Looking at Lester's AAA stats, he is actually by no means dominating. He does still need to work, as he has stretches of 2 good starts then gets rocked or is average at the most. I'd like to see his ERAs with runners and in scoring position go down, as well, and keep the BBs down.

[schillingouttheks]

he is tiring' date=' look at the numbers I posted. Lester might need to have the reigns pulled back and prolong his ETA until 2008. He isnt ready, and likely wont be ready this season. Bringing him up right now could ruin him as a prospect.[/quote']

 

I think we pushed submit at the same time so I didn't see what you said about the fatigue. I know he hasn't been doing well, but I didn't get the sense that he was fatigued. Anyway, I think the Sox need to find someone else to deal for. I still strongly believe that Buerhle can be had, and now that the White Sox extended him they can get a lot more for him than they would have gotten if he was a 2-month rental. There's a condition of the extension that states that if he's traded he gets a boost in his salary and an extra year added to the extension, so he has some protection. I would trade Bowden + Lester + Moss/Murphy for Buehrle while Lester still appears to be a promising prospect. I don't think his recent struggles have necessarily hurt his value considering he was doing pretty well earlier while recovering from cancer (and still is).

[jacksonianmarch]

I think we pushed submit at the same time so I didn't see what you said about the fatigue. I know he hasn't been doing well' date=' but I didn't get the sense that he was fatigued. Anyway, I think the Sox need to find someone else to deal for. I still strongly believe that Buerhle can be had, and now that the White Sox extended him they can get a lot more for him than they would have gotten if he was a 2-month rental. There's a condition of the extension that states that if he's traded he gets a boost in his salary and an extra year added to the extension, so he has some protection. I would trade Bowden + Lester + Moss/Murphy for Buehrle while Lester still appears to be a promising prospect. I don't think his recent struggles have necessarily hurt his value considering he was doing pretty well earlier while recovering from cancer (and still is).[/quote']

 

his value is most certainly hurt by his struggles, but it is more hurt by the fact that the guy had frickin cancer. As much as we like to bag on player who are always injured, this guy had a life threatening, publicly tabooed disease that can come back. His value wont be much unless he is absolutely dominating. It is sad to say that, but it is true.

 

Hence why I am pulling for him to be a good pitcher in Boston. Because I dont think the sox will get as much as they think he is worth as a player and at the same time, likely wont be given much of a shot unless he is totally right since not many players have had successful recoveries (career wise) from a systemic cancer. He is in a catch 22, and I hope for his sake that he isnt pushed and gets to recover over the off season. Caner treatment is not trivial like many believe. And for a top athlete, an small reduction in strength can be the difference between making it big or being washed up. Hence why I was hoping he was kept out for the year. So he can gather his strength, have a full, healthy offseason and come back solid next yr.

[schillingouttheks]

his value is most certainly hurt by his struggles' date=' but it is more hurt by the fact that the guy had frickin cancer. As much as we like to bag on player who are always injured, this guy had a life threatening, publicly tabooed disease that can come back. His value wont be much unless he is absolutely dominating. It is sad to say that, but it is true.[/quote']

 

I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, I still think some will value him as a good prospect. The fact that he's come back pitching right after he had the cancer is what's truly amazing. He was doing pretty damn well for a stretch if I remember correctly. His value is still there, but I guess I agree in that his value has been hurt because of the cancer.

[Teddyballgame10]

Lester is not the answer right now. I dont want to f*** up his confidence when he could be a stud. Give him time he its worth it in the long term. Take it easy, we are 10 games up.

[BoSox21]

Gabbard or Buchholz just might be the best in-house options we have as the permanent #5 starter right now. Tavarez can go to the pen but they'd have to find a way to get rid of Pineiro

[schillingouttheks]

I'm pretty sick of the "take it easy, we're 10 games up" motto. I don't give a s*** if we're 2, 10, or 25 games up. When the Yankees are behind you, you bury them. Even if you're the best team in baseball, you have to find a way to better your team. I'm not taking it easy until we're 11 up with 10 to go. Tavarez as a starter has to come to an end. Like ORS said, I'm concerned that management is going to let this experiment go through one-too-many bumps before they pull the plug on it because of its success early on.

[jacksonianmarch]

Buchholz should not be the answer either. Having him end last yr in long season A and end up this season in the majors is WAY too big of a jump. He needs to build that arm strength, and being incorporated into a MLB rotation for the last 3 months is not a way to build anything except an injury history. Ask Mark Prior.

 

I think the sox are monitoring the trade wires well. I wouldnt be surprised if they took a run at Contreras since he will be easier to get.

[ORS]

Buchholz should not be the answer either. Having him end last yr in long season A and end up this season in the majors is WAY too big of a jump. He needs to build that arm strength' date=' and being incorporated into a MLB rotation for the last 3 months is not a way to build anything except an injury history. Ask Mark Prior.[/quote']

Once you get an idea in your head, you can't shake it despite mountains of evidence to counter it, can you?

 

Buchholz has an oragnizational goal of about 165 IP this year. He's at 86 2/3 right now on July 15. He can easily make 4 or 5 starts in AAA and be at be at no more than 115 IP. That leaves 50 IP if he shows he's worthy (and is needed) of a shot to help the big club for the last month and a half.

 

And the comparison to Prior is a haymaker. Prior threw 166 IP as 21 y/o in his first full professional season. The next year, '03, as a 22 y/o he threw 211. That is an assload of innings right in the middle of the injury nexus for young pitchers. Buchholz threw 119 as a 22 y/o. Also, scouting is that he was stronger at the end of the year last year and that he's a pitcher who gets stronger in his outings. Given the way they've handled him and his history, I don't think fatigue is a concern.

 

Bottom line, if he's showing the ability to handle AAA right out of the gate, he should come help the big club if he's needed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Once you get an idea in your head, you can't shake it despite mountains of evidence to counter it, can you?

 

Buchholz has an oragnizational goal of about 165 IP this year. He's at 86 2/3 right now on July 15. He can easily make 4 or 5 starts in AAA and be at be at no more than 115 IP. That leaves 50 IP if he shows he's worthy (and is needed) of a shot to help the big club for the last month and a half.

 

And the comparison to Prior is a haymaker. Prior threw 166 IP as 21 y/o in his first full professional season. The next year, '03, as a 22 y/o he threw 211. That is an assload of innings right in the middle of the injury nexus for young pitchers. Buchholz threw 119 as a 22 y/o. Also, scouting is that he was stronger at the end of the year last year and that he's a pitcher who gets stronger in his outings. Given the way they've handled him and his history, I don't think fatigue is a concern.

 

Bottom line, if he's showing the ability to handle AAA right out of the gate, he should come help the big club if he's needed.

 

fair enough.

 

I really dont see a reason why he wont dominate AAA.

[Teddyballgame10]

I'm pretty sick of the "take it easy' date=' we're 10 games up" motto. I don't give a s*** if we're 2, 10, or 25 games up. When the Yankees are behind you, you bury them. Even if you're the best team in baseball, you have to find a way to better your team. I'm not taking it easy until we're 11 up with 10 to go. Tavarez as a starter has to come to an end. Like ORS said, I'm concerned that management is going to let this experiment go through one-too-many bumps before they pull the plug on it because of its success early on.[/quote']

 

 

All right fine good point, but Lester is still not the answer.

[BoSox21]

once every other contender starts taking serious steps to position themselves for a run at the Series, I expect the Sox to do the same and ill be disappointed if they don't. they can get outside help that will produce without having to give up Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester or Bowden

[Soxfan1]

I think dealing for a pitcher would be the best thing right now. If we could aquire a good starter without dealing Buch or Ellsbury. Looking at who we could rent until the end of the year, the only names that we could get from teams out of it at this point are Garcia and Lieber, who are both about to undergo season ending surgery.

 

How about the rest of the White Sox pitchers? Contreras, Garland?

I'd love to get Tom G from Pitt.

And a little tidbit I saw

Fun idea for an August trade: the Padres bring Matt Clement back. His salary would easily get through waivers. Clement is currently at about 70% effort right now, so he's a long shot to help. But it would be kind of cool.

[schillingouttheks]

All right fine good point' date=' but Lester is still not the answer.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think dealing for a pitcher would be the best thing right now. If we could aquire a good starter without dealing Buch or Ellsbury. Looking at who we could rent until the end of the year, the only names that we could get from teams out of it at this point are Garcia and Lieber, who are both about to undergo season ending surgery.

 

How about the rest of the White Sox pitchers? Contreras, Garland?

I'd love to get Tom G from Pitt.

And a little tidbit I saw

 

you wont get Gorzellany, he's in his second yr of service, he is cheap and good. He is untouchable.