Papelbon is the closer according ESPN

[TheKilo]

One Red Seat:

 

Suffice to say you are completely wrong about Papelbon....I think its obvious that you really don't know as much about baseball as you say you do. I am aware that I had a momentary lapse on Johan Santanna's first name, credit it to lack of sleep and old age. But I don't think that detracts from my original argument.

 

I personally believe that the chances that Jonathan Papelbon would ever become an elite starter are slim. I didn't make up the idea that Papelbon doesn't maintain his velocity. I received the info from a pretty reliable source. Again, my source for this information was a Peter Gammons radio interview on Mike and Mike in the morning, the day after it was announced that Papelbon would return to the pen. According to Gammons, "several scouts tell me that around the 4th inning his velocity would go from 94 to about 88." I don't think I was dreaming either because Scaffolds mentioned the very same thing on another board. I'm not a scout and I wasn't charting his velocity nor do I have a log of his velocity, but I'd say that if Gammons says that several scouts told him something, its as good as actual fact. Even if you think "I don't know baseball" and "I don't have a clue". I think its pretty obvious that Peter Gammons HAS a clue, and either he or the people he is interviewing, DO know baseball.

 

Your argument is that there is a significant chance that with time Papelbon would build up his endurance. I think the chances of this happening are quite slim. He was starter for two years and he was still not maintaining his velocity. If two years aren't enough for him to build this endurance how is three going to help? Compounding this, is that he's coming off a shoulder injury, AND would have to increase his innnings pitched by a large amount. If anything his enducrance would probably get WORSE as time went on. Sure stranger things have happened, but I think the odds of him becoming an elite starter are quite long. He sure as heck would have trouble getting guys out throwing 88.

 

As far as your insults of me...and denying that they are insults...I think that stating that "I don't have a clue"...and that "I don't know baseball", is childish. Again just my opinion. There are certain posters on message boards that like to question the accumen or knowledge of the person they are debating with when they are losing an argument. Its pretty clear to me that when you state things like this, its because you are losing the argument. You didn't attack my ideas, you attacked me personally, and to me that's extremely unclassy and childish.

 

No I am not in favor of throwing away 2007 because of the small chance that Papelbon might become one of the best pitchers in the league. I'll take the 80+% chance that he's one of the best closers in the league.

 

I look forward to your response....which I am sure will basically deny that the Gammons interview ever occured, and that I don't know baseball because I had a temporary brain cramp on the first name of the best pitcher in baseball.

 

1. Learn how to use the quote button.

 

2. All ORS has simply said is that the Red Sox are not even considering that Papelbon can transition into an elite starter. By moving him to the bullpen NOW, the Red Sox limit their potential options. Hell, Piniero has thrown 8 straight scoreless innings. I'm not saying he'll be a lockdown closer, but I definitely think he can do a serviceable job. If the arms Theo acquired in the offseason couldn't do the job, then the FO could move Paps back into the pen. It's not a two way street.

 

3. I am not a fan of Paps putting his shoulder under so much strain. He got injured closing last year. It's a distinct possibility he can get hurt again this year, especially if Tito's usage of him remains constant (which I think it will).

 

In closing, ORS is not saying he will become an elite starter, but merely he could given the chance. The Red Sox are not giving him that chance.

[ORS]

One Red Seat:

 

Suffice to say you are completely wrong about Papelbon....I think its obvious that you really don't know as much about baseball as you say you do. I am aware that I had a momentary lapse on Johan Santanna's first name, credit it to lack of sleep and old age. But I don't think that detracts from my original argument.

 

I personally believe that the chances that Jonathan Papelbon would ever become an elite starter are slim. I didn't make up the idea that Papelbon doesn't maintain his velocity. I received the info from a pretty reliable source. Again, my source for this information was a Peter Gammons radio interview on Mike and Mike in the morning, the day after it was announced that Papelbon would return to the pen. According to Gammons, "several scouts tell me that around the 4th inning his velocity would go from 94 to about 88." I don't think I was dreaming either because Scaffolds mentioned the very same thing on another board. I'm not a scout and I wasn't charting his velocity nor do I have a log of his velocity, but I'd say that if Gammons says that several scouts told him something, its as good as actual fact. Even if you think "I don't know baseball" and "I don't have a clue". I think its pretty obvious that Peter Gammons HAS a clue, and either he or the people he is interviewing, DO know baseball.

 

Your argument is that there is a significant chance that with time Papelbon would build up his endurance. I think the chances of this happening are quite slim. He was starter for two years and he was still not maintaining his velocity. If two years aren't enough for him to build this endurance how is three going to help? Compounding this, is that he's coming off a shoulder injury, AND would have to increase his innnings pitched by a large amount. If anything his enducrance would probably get WORSE as time went on. Sure stranger things have happened, but I think the odds of him becoming an elite starter are quite long. He sure as heck would have trouble getting guys out throwing 88.

 

As far as your insults of me...and denying that they are insults...I think that stating that "I don't have a clue"...and that "I don't know baseball", is childish. Again just my opinion. There are certain posters on message boards that like to question the accumen or knowledge of the person they are debating with when they are losing an argument. Its pretty clear to me that when you state things like this, its because you are losing the argument. You didn't attack my ideas, you attacked me personally, and to me that's extremely unclassy and childish.

 

No I am not in favor of throwing away 2007 because of the small chance that Papelbon might become one of the best pitchers in the league. I'll take the 80+% chance that he's one of the best closers in the league.

 

I look forward to your response....which I am sure will basically deny that the Gammons interview ever occured, and that I don't know baseball because I had a temporary brain cramp on the first name of the best pitcher in baseball.

 

No, I won't deny Gammon's interview, I'll just ask you to do something relatively simple, well, at least for most people, and that is to apply an appropriate timeline to the situation.

 

I stated Papelbon maintained his velocity in his '05 starts. You said he didn't, and glory be, you have a source. I, however, don't need a source, because I watched those starts. Since you do need a source, logic follows that you didn't watch them, so you were making the part about him losing velocity up. You just introduced a fatal flaw to any argument, fabricated information. Point me.

 

What Gammons wrote is about this spring training. Repeat that. THIS spring training. Of course Papelbon didn't have stamina, he was closing last year. So, when you say you don't think he'd ever be able to build it, you ignore an entire year where he lost time to build it. This just goes to show that you either aren't that aware of what is going on, or that you can't put two and two together.

 

Deny Gammons article? Why, it's much easier rip apart the rabble you post.

[RobZombie]

paps is still young

who knows how he would develop as a starter.

we never stretched him out enuff to determine this and when he did get the ball as a rookie he fared ok

it isnt in cement that he dont have the endurance to become a 7ip guy

 

First off Papelbon isn't all that young. He's already 26. We aren't talking about some 19 year old kid whom we hope will be able to gain endurace as he grows.

 

Secondly as a starter in 05 he really didn't pitch all that well. He had an average game score in the low 50s. That's pretty mediocre.

 

No nothing is for certain, but after two years as a starter, Papelbon according to several scouts, was throwing in the high 80s after a few innings. How in the world is time going to change this? He's going to have to triple his innings as a starter. If anything, the problem would exacerbate as the season wore on.

 

In my opinion, Papelbon, if he started would most likely be an average guy with an ERA in the mid to high 4's. That's not something that I'm willing to give up an elite closer for.

 

I'm sorry if this upsets most Red Sox fans, but it seems to me that Papelbon's chances of becoming one of the best starting pitchers in baseball are quite slim.

[Mr Crunchy]

99.9% of the prospects can throw

most never learn to pitch

paps dominate last year as a closer he was great in 05 as a set up guy and in spot starts

26 is 26

14 years ago schill was 26

 

at best any future predictions are guess work

[RobZombie]

No, I won't deny Gammon's interview, I'll just ask you to do something relatively simple, well, at least for most people, and that is to apply an appropriate timeline to the situation.

 

I stated Papelbon maintained his velocity in his '05 starts. You said he didn't, and glory be, you have a source. I, however, don't need a source, because I watched those starts. Since you do need a source, logic follows that you didn't watch them, so you were making the part about him losing velocity up. You just introduced a fatal flaw to any argument, fabricated information. Point me.

 

What Gammons wrote is about this spring training. Repeat that. THIS spring training. Of course Papelbon didn't have stamina, he was closing last year. So, when you say you don't think he'd ever be able to build it, you ignore an entire year where he lost time to build it. This just goes to show that you either aren't that aware of what is going on, or that you can't put two and two together.

 

Deny Gammons article? Why, it's much easier rip apart the rabble you post.

 

First off I DID watch Papelbon's starts that year. I did not attend the games in person with a radar gun pointed charting every pitch. Did you? If not it is you that posting fabricated information. That as I have heard is the fatal flaw to any argument.

 

Gammons information IS NOT based souly on his performance this spring. Scaffolds reported similar information on this site earlier this year before spring training ever got under way. In fact as you may remember he got into a fight with Kushi and swore at him. That leads me to believe that Gammons was reporting on Papelbon not just from spring training but from starts throughout his pro-career. I don't think its a coincidence that this appeared on the radio when Scaffolds reported the same thing.

 

Hence I am NOT ignoring an entire year when he was closing. This has been a problem thorughout his pro career and it would prevent him from becoming a great pitcher if the problem were to persist.

 

I notice that you once again insulted me, by calling my post "rabble". It is my contention that you do this because you KNOW you have lost the argument. All that's left is personal attacks. You tell me that because I have a source for this information and you do not it can't be true. Yet unless you charted his velocity thorughout the game, I would wonder how it is that you KNOW that Papelbon maintained his velocity throughout the games he started? The simple answer is you don't....because you weren't charting pitches you were watching the game on TV.

[RobZombie]

99.9% of the prospects can throw

most never learn to pitch

paps dominate last year as a closer he was great in 05 as a set up guy and in spot starts

26 is 26

14 years ago schill was 26

 

at best any future predictions are guess work

 

Mr. Cruchy I don't follow your logic here. Because Papelbon was great as a set up guy and as a closer and Schilling was once 26, Papelbon has a chance to become Schilling? As I've said from a performance standpoint his average game score as a starter in the majors wasn't any evidence that he can be a good starter.

[RobZombie]

1. Learn how to use the quote button.

 

2. All ORS has simply said is that the Red Sox are not even considering that Papelbon can transition into an elite starter. By moving him to the bullpen NOW, the Red Sox limit their potential options. Hell, Piniero has thrown 8 straight scoreless innings. I'm not saying he'll be a lockdown closer, but I definitely think he can do a serviceable job. If the arms Theo acquired in the offseason couldn't do the job, then the FO could move Paps back into the pen. It's not a two way street.

 

3. I am not a fan of Paps putting his shoulder under so much strain. He got injured closing last year. It's a distinct possibility he can get hurt again this year, especially if Tito's usage of him remains constant (which I think it will).

 

In closing, ORS is not saying he will become an elite starter, but merely he could given the chance. The Red Sox are not giving him that chance.

 

Lets take your argument point by point.

 

#1 So noted.

 

#2 I wouldn't take 8 scoreless spring innings as any evidence that Piniero could do the job. Lets remember this is spring training and later in games you face a lot of guys who aren't going to sniff the majors. From what I've heard and read Piniero is defintely improving, but no way I trust him to even be a serviceable closer based on 8 scoreless innings against the weak sisters of the poor. And plus, I really think the chances that Papelbon will be an elite starter are a long-shot at best. I'm not willing to flush the season down the toilet so the Sox can take a hail mary. I'd also note that from a statistical standpoint, Baseball Prospectus doesn't think that he's likely to be a great starter either.

 

#3 I think is a definte consideration. Though according to the team the shoulder is stronger than it ever was before. Its entirely possible that Paps eventually blows out his shoulder because he's a reliever. But I think the chances of that happening in a short amount of time are much less than the chance of him becoming an elite starter.

 

The reason for him going to the pen is two fold. First he's a great closer and the Sox clearly need a guy who can do that. And second, he's unlikely to be a great starter.

 

Though I do thank you for being more polite and peppering your argument with actual opinions and not bombs.

[Mr Crunchy]

based on your argument youre correct

that said

what makes you think he cant

he hasnt tried

when he pitched in 05 he threw as requested,they never pushed him and he never appeared strained in my eyes anyways..

if his velocity fell later in the games he started as a rookie it should be considered rather common

 

i simply refuse to rule out how effective his potential as a starter could be because hes excelled in evrery other arena we threw him in

if your argument is we shouldnt fix what aint broke i can agree with that assessment

if youre saying he wont have an era under 2 as a starter id agree with that as well

 

the books wide open on his career and i havent seen anything in his game to dismiss him as a starter

[TheKilo]

Lets take your argument point by point.

 

 

 

#2 I wouldn't take 8 scoreless spring innings as any evidence that Piniero could do the job. Lets remember this is spring training and later in games you face a lot of guys who aren't going to sniff the majors. From what I've heard and read Piniero is defintely improving, but no way I trust him to even be a serviceable closer based on 8 scoreless innings against the weak sisters of the poor. And plus, I really think the chances that Papelbon will be an elite starter are a long-shot at best. I'm not willing to flush the season down the toilet so the Sox can take a hail mary. I'd also note that from a statistical standpoint, Baseball Prospectus doesn't think that he's likely to be a great starter either.

 

 

The reason for him going to the pen is two fold. First he's a great closer and the Sox clearly need a guy who can do that. And second, he's unlikely to be a great starter.

 

Though I do thank you for being more polite and peppering your argument with actual opinions and not bombs.

 

I absolutely can agree with this line of thinking, but I would have preferred them to at least give him the shot to perform as a starter.

 

The injury risk really concerns me. If Tito is given strict instructions on how to use him, like 3 times a week or something, fine. I don't want the kid's shoulder exploding.

 

We saw he's a special pitcher. He needs to be used correctly.

[Mr Crunchy]

if hes that hurt then shelve his ass now

if its a matter of wear and tear theres little that can be done and as a closer we'll find out quickly how strong he is

considering how the season ended last year im thinking shelving him was more precaution than anything else

[TheKilo]

if hes that hurt then shelve his ass now

if its a matter of wear and tear theres little that can be done and as a closer we'll find out quickly how strong he is

considering how the season ended last year im thinking shelving him was more precaution than anything else

 

It may be true, but Tito HAS to use him more wisely. He can't be run out there three days in a row.

[ORS]

First off I DID watch Papelbon's starts that year. I did not attend the games in person with a radar gun pointed charting every pitch. Did you? If not it is you that posting fabricated information. That as I have heard is the fatal flaw to any argument.

 

Gammons information IS NOT based souly on his performance this spring. Scaffolds reported similar information on this site earlier this year before spring training ever got under way. In fact as you may remember he got into a fight with Kushi and swore at him. That leads me to believe that Gammons was reporting on Papelbon not just from spring training but from starts throughout his pro-career. I don't think its a coincidence that this appeared on the radio when Scaffolds reported the same thing.

 

Hence I am NOT ignoring an entire year when he was closing. This has been a problem thorughout his pro career and it would prevent him from becoming a great pitcher if the problem were to persist.

 

I notice that you once again insulted me, by calling my post "rabble". It is my contention that you do this because you KNOW you have lost the argument. All that's left is personal attacks. You tell me that because I have a source for this information and you do not it can't be true. Yet unless you charted his velocity thorughout the game, I would wonder how it is that you KNOW that Papelbon maintained his velocity throughout the games he started? The simple answer is you don't....because you weren't charting pitches you were watching the game on TV.

That's a nice try, but it just doesn't fit the definition of fabrication. I didn't make anything up, I'm going off my recollection which I trust a lot more than yours. I don't need Peter Gammons to back me up. I know what I saw. I saw a kid come in and throw cheese for 5+ innings. He wasn't able to go longer because he was on a strict pitch count, and he was only throwing cheese at the time. 93-95 mph is great, but if it is all you have and you aren't hitting your spots, major league hitters can work the count, which is what happened.

 

Again, I come back to the basic disagreement I have with your opinion based assertion. You are stating unequivically that he cannot be a top-flight starter. You can say that until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't make it true. In the end it is only your opinion. If that is your opinion, fine, I respectfully disagree. But that isn't how you portray it. You state it as if it were fact, and you call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. Kind goes against your whole "you can't argue the point so you just insult" logic, doesn't it Julio?

 

Here's some facts, since you claim to be only interested in those. The pitcher that had low scores on his game cards was throwing one good pitch, and he was on a strict pitch count. That limited his innings, which is a compenent of those game scores. He also struggled with command, walking quite a few batters, another component of game scores. That same pitcher today has refined his command at this level and has very good BB/9 rates. He also has another very good pitch in his arsenal, the splitter, and and has shown significant improvement in the curve. The only thing missing is stamina, which again ties back to the fact that he lost of year of development. Given more time to develop it, he would gain it. I don't know where you got the idea that a 26 y/o can't develop stamina, but I can tell you it is patently false. I should know, I did it after 26 in the Marine Corps. Muscles can be trained at just about any age.

 

Given that information, there is no way you can say with certainty that he won't be a good SP. Given the questions about stamina, there's no way I can say for certain he will be, but, that's the thing, I'm not. You are the only one trying to shove the square peg into the round hole.

[RobZombie]

That's a nice try, but it just doesn't fit the definition of fabrication. I didn't make anything up, I'm going off my recollection which I trust a lot more than yours. I don't need Peter Gammons to back me up. I know what I saw. I saw a kid come in and throw cheese for 5+ innings. He wasn't able to go longer because he was on a strict pitch count, and he was only throwing cheese at the time. 93-95 mph is great, but if it is all you have and you aren't hitting your spots, major league hitters can work the count, which is what happened.

 

Again, I come back to the basic disagreement I have with your opinion based assertion. You are stating unequivically that he cannot be a top-flight starter. You can say that until you are blue in the face, but that doesn't make it true. In the end it is only your opinion. If that is your opinion, fine, I respectfully disagree. But that isn't how you portray it. You state it as if it were fact, and you call anyone who disagrees with you a fanboy. Kind goes against your whole "you can't argue the point so you just insult" logic, doesn't it Julio?

 

Here's some facts, since you claim to be only interested in those. The pitcher that had low scores on his game cards was throwing one good pitch, and he was on a strict pitch count. That limited his innings, which is a compenent of those game scores. He also struggled with command, walking quite a few batters, another component of game scores. That same pitcher today has refined his command at this level and has very good BB/9 rates. He also has another very good pitch in his arsenal, the splitter, and and has shown significant improvement in the curve. The only thing missing is stamina, which again ties back to the fact that he lost of year of development. Given more time to develop it, he would gain it. I don't know where you got the idea that a 26 y/o can't develop stamina, but I can tell you it is patently false. I should know, I did it after 26 in the Marine Corps. Muscles can be trained at just about any age.

 

Given that information, there is no way you can say with certainty that he won't be a good SP. Given the questions about stamina, there's no way I can say for certain he will be, but, that's the thing, I'm not. You are the only one trying to shove the square peg into the round hole.

 

One Red Seat....first off I only started to call you a childish fanboy when you started hurling insults at me. You seem unable to politely disagree with others. Its "you don't have a clue" and "you don't know baseball". Its pretty clear from all of your posts that you yell at people who disagree with you and question their intelligence. Its as if you are a child who starts to cry because someone told you your beloved Papelbon really isn't as good as you think he is.

 

His split maybe a plus pitch but if he's not throwing in the mid 90s it loses effectiveness. His curve? That's certainly not a plus pitch today and at 26 its unlikely it will be.

 

Unfortunatlely what you saw doesn't jive with the facts. The fact is that Papelbon was throwing 95 for the first few innings or so, but as the game wore on, he wasn't throwing in the mid 90s anymore. Those are the facts, and all the insults in the world won't change it.

 

You've made it clear that you aren't open to any argument that shows unequivicoly that Papelbon would be an average starting pitcher. You've made it clear that you will attack anyone who dares to tell you that the emporor has no clothes. Its really irrelevant to you that he happens to be parading before you naked.

 

So go off with your Red Sox hat and memories of being a supposed former Marine and believe all you want that the Sox are wasting a real chance at the next Schilling. The facts are against you. If you want to try to bully the messenger that's your problem.

 

Why does it seem that others seem to be able to debate the point politely and you cannot? Perhaps you are taking this stuff a little too seriously.

 

And to think we had a person like you defending our country. No wonder we are losing the war!

[RobZombie]

I absolutely can agree with this line of thinking, but I would have preferred them to at least give him the shot to perform as a starter.

 

The injury risk really concerns me. If Tito is given strict instructions on how to use him, like 3 times a week or something, fine. I don't want the kid's shoulder exploding.

 

We saw he's a special pitcher. He needs to be used correctly.

 

For me...I just didn't think he'd be all that good as a starter. No I can't say it with certainty...I just think its highly unlikely that he would be elite. If you don't think that his chances of being a great starter are all that great, then the putting him back in the rotation becomes more obvious.

 

I agree that he's a special reliever and that Tito should be more careful with him especially given his past shoulder issues. But I don't think trading an elite closer for an average starter to protect the kid from the manager is wise either.

[Sox Fan on Cape]

So go off with your Red Sox hat and memories of being a supposed former Marine and believe all you want that the Sox are wasting a real chance at the next Schilling. The facts are against you. If you want to try to bully the messenger that's your problem.

 

Why does it seem that others seem to be able to debate the point politely and you cannot? Perhaps you are taking this stuff a little too seriously.

 

And to think we had a person like you defending our country. No wonder we are losing the war

 

I got news for you, you bring no message to this board. Let's see 25 useless posts in 5 months, I'm really impressed. You have the audacity to attempt to attack a respected member of the board, as well as his service record. You must be a moron. Go ahead, keep up the insults and personal attack. I can pretty much assure you will be dumped on, ignored, or banned.

[ORS]

One Red Seat....first off I only started to call you a childish fanboy when you started hurling insults at me. You seem unable to politely disagree with others. Its "you don't have a clue" and "you don't know baseball". Its pretty clear from all of your posts that you yell at people who disagree with you and question their intelligence. Its as if you are a child who starts to cry because someone told you your beloved Papelbon really isn't as good as you think he is.

 

His split maybe a plus pitch but if he's not throwing in the mid 90s it loses effectiveness. His curve? That's certainly not a plus pitch today and at 26 its unlikely it will be.

 

Unfortunatlely what you saw doesn't jive with the facts. The fact is that Papelbon was throwing 95 for the first few innings or so, but as the game wore on, he wasn't throwing in the mid 90s anymore. Those are the facts, and all the insults in the world won't change it.

 

You've made it clear that you aren't open to any argument that shows unequivicoly that Papelbon would be an average starting pitcher. You've made it clear that you will attack anyone who dares to tell you that the emporor has no clothes. Its really irrelevant to you that he happens to be parading before you naked.

 

So go off with your Red Sox hat and memories of being a supposed former Marine and believe all you want that the Sox are wasting a real chance at the next Schilling. The facts are against you. If you want to try to bully the messenger that's your problem.

 

Why does it seem that others seem to be able to debate the point politely and you cannot? Perhaps you are taking this stuff a little too seriously.

 

And to think we had a person like you defending our country. No wonder we are losing the war!

Wow. I didn't even insult you in that last post and you attack my service to the country. Kind of like your argument, it looks like that "take the moral high ground" stuff was bunch of BS.

 

I've got no problem with the messenger, just the message. The message is wrong because it attempts to establish as fact an opinion. And, I'm not bullying you. It just feels that way because you are getting your hat handed to you.

[TheKilo]

So go off with your Red Sox hat and memories of being a supposed former Marine and believe all you want that the Sox are wasting a real chance at the next Schilling. The facts are against you. If you want to try to bully the messenger that's your problem.

 

Why does it seem that others seem to be able to debate the point politely and you cannot? Perhaps you are taking this stuff a little too seriously.

 

And to think we had a person like you defending our country. No wonder we are losing the war!

 

Totally, unequivocally uncalled for.

[ksushi]

I've never seen paps velocity dip below 90 ever and I watch him a lot. I go out of my way to watch a lot of baseball, and read a lot of reports and I've never read anything but praise of Papelbons fastball. He would have been a fine starter, I think if he stays healthy, he is a HOF caliber reliever. I think as a starter he'd still be very good, but not as beastly. He never would have fallen on his face.

 

 

Rob Zombie, maybe its best if you just forget about this one. Move on. No need to drag this one out.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I'm going to weigh in...

 

I'm thrilled with Papelbon in the bullpen as long as it's the right move health-wise. I feel that Paps will be a far more effective closer than he would have been a starter. Is there the chance that he could develop more and become a great starter? Sure, anything's possible. At the same rate, Paps has two nasty pitches...his FB and his Split. His curve, from what I've seen this spring, is decent AT BEST. You can get by on two pitches as a closer...not only can you get by, but you can prosper and enjoy great success. Living on two pitches as a starter is not so easy. Short of a knuckleballer, it rarely occurs and even those are few and far between. It takes a special makeup for a guy to be able to close out ballgames...I'd say there are far more closers that could be made starters than starters that could be made closers. We've got a guy who's shown he has the stones to do it...I'm happy they're not messing with it any longer.

 

Rob Zombie...I was backing you and agreeing with you until you came out with that military blast. Common man, what were you thinking? ORS gets defensive when you have opinions that differ from his...I won't dispute that with you at all...but him telling you you don't know anything about baseball and you questioning his service to the Country aren't even in the same realm. Get some class, bro.

[Manny Goes Boom]

Though I do thank you for being more polite and peppering your argument with actual opinions and not bombs.

 

Hmmm...

 

One Red Seat....first off I only started to call you a childish fanboy when you started hurling insults at me. You seem unable to politely disagree with others. Its "you don't have a clue" and "you don't know baseball". Its pretty clear from all of your posts that you yell at people who disagree with you and question their intelligence. Its as if you are a child who starts to cry because someone told you your beloved Papelbon really isn't as good as you think he is.

 

His split maybe a plus pitch but if he's not throwing in the mid 90s it loses effectiveness. His curve? That's certainly not a plus pitch today and at 26 its unlikely it will be.

 

Unfortunatlely what you saw doesn't jive with the facts. The fact is that Papelbon was throwing 95 for the first few innings or so, but as the game wore on, he wasn't throwing in the mid 90s anymore. Those are the facts, and all the insults in the world won't change it.

 

You've made it clear that you aren't open to any argument that shows unequivicoly that Papelbon would be an average starting pitcher. You've made it clear that you will attack anyone who dares to tell you that the emporor has no clothes. Its really irrelevant to you that he happens to be parading before you naked.

 

So go off with your Red Sox hat and memories of being a supposed former Marine and believe all you want that the Sox are wasting a real chance at the next Schilling. The facts are against you. If you want to try to bully the messenger that's your problem.

 

Why does it seem that others seem to be able to debate the point politely and you cannot? Perhaps you are taking this stuff a little too seriously.

 

And to think we had a person like you defending our country. No wonder we are losing the war!

 

Hypocitical grade A *******. Dude get a life, he served so your lazy over sensitive ass didn't have to. So he called you a few names, big deal. Get over it, its the internet. But trashing ANYONE who served, is BEYOND wrong. You are a loser. :thumbdown :banned:

[CalvnHobs6]

My brief thoughts on Papelbon:

Two years ago, I was told this kid was the next Roger Clemens.

 

Last year, I was told he could be the best closer of all time.

 

This year, I'm told they're going to start him, then close him, then maybe switch him back at some point...who knows.

 

My opinion: don't ruin this kid's career. Whichever path he chooses with the team, he will be the next Roger Clemens. Or the next Mariano Rivera. Just let him develop into one, and stop f***ing with him. I like seeing him close, as he likes closing. So I guess that's where I'm at.

[Gom]

I'm loving it right now!

 

ORS, Papelbon cannot be an effective starting pitcher due to his sublaxation. He can relieve, and only every other day, and limited to one inning. Please realize this. You were wrong in listening to the advice of so-called experts that the Red Sox had paid off. It is not your fault that you were given disinformation that you believed due to your limited knowledge of the subject and human physiology, which is not your area of expertise. Lets move on to the next subject.

[ORS]

It's not yours either, Gom. No specialists have gone to the media against the original move. Several have gone to the media supporting it. Do the math.

[Gom]

You really are being obtuse. The reason why the Red Sox needed someone to go out and say such a thing is because it is AGAINST conventional medical opinion. Going out and saying the opposite is stating the obvious.

[ORS]

No, it isn't stating the obvious. It just feels like that to you because it is your opinion.

 

Since you seem to think it a ploy, then connect the dots. What was the motive for that amount of disinformation?

[CrespoBlows]

You really are being obtuse. The reason why the Red Sox needed someone to go out and say such a thing is because it is AGAINST conventional medical opinion. Going out and saying the opposite is stating the obvious.

 

Why did so many medical experts say that moving Papelbon to the rotation would help his shoulder? I don't see why the Red Sox would need to plant a false leak.

[ORS]

Will Carroll is the pre-eminent sportswriter regarding mechanics, physiology, and injuries. From yesterday at BaseballProspectus:

 

Just a couple weeks ago, the Sox were saying that Papelbon wasn't medically cleared to close. So what changed and what does this mean for his health? I asked Dr. Ralph Gambardella, the medical director at Kerlan-Jobe, for his thoughts. "What type of car would you rather buy?" he asked me. "One that I have driven every morning from 0 to 150 mph in 15 seconds for a year or one that I have driven every morning from 0 to 55 mph for 15 minutes for a year? A relief pitcher usually has to throw serious heat for a short period of time, and many times may not have (an) adequate warm-up. The starting pitcher needs to throw various pitches over many innings and has more time to warm up. So while things like pitch count per game and innings per year are often tied to increased incidence of injury, it is more likely for a starting pitcher to be successful for many years ,and harder for a reliever to do so."

 

link

[jacksonianmarch]

checkmate

[RobZombie]

It just feels that way because you are getting your hat handed to you.

 

So lets keep track...

 

Having my hat haded to me entails:

 

#1 Getting told that using a source proves that my argument was false. Then like a child jumping up and yelling "point me".

 

#2 Trying to use that you were a marine to support your argument about Papelbon which is of course irrelevant.

 

#3 Telling me that it doesn't matter that two sources on several occasions have said that Papelbon can't maintain his velocity into the later innings. Then denying that it ever happened...because "my recollection is better than yours"

 

Please that's not handing my hat to me...that's just proving that you are in love with the player and get angry if someone questions his abities

 

Do you really think that if the Red Sox thought they had a contender for the Cy Young award on their hands that they would have put Papelbon in the bullpen? Do you think they would have done it if the chances were even 50/50?

 

I doubt it.

 

Perhaps the reason is because they also think that Papelbon's chances of being a top pitcher aren't as good as you think.

 

Really just because you insult people, and yell "point me" doesn't mean you are winning an argument. It just means you are a loser who is upset because someone insulted your boyfriend.

[yeszir]

I don't want to split this thread, so if you want to fight start a thread in fights and crap for it.