Papelbon is the closer according ESPN

[jacksonianmarch]

either way, it is interesting to say the least. Papelbon as the closer makes the sox bullpen have a nice hammer at the end but it leaves a huge hole in the rotation. Either way, the sox didnt have a contingency plan. Now their "contingency" is a reliever in the 5 hole who had a 1.5+ WHIP and a kid who they will be rushing back from a cancer recovery.

[VA Sox Fan]

either way' date=' it is interesting to say the least. Papelbon as the closer makes the sox bullpen have a nice hammer at the end but it leaves a huge hole in the rotation. Either way, the sox didnt have a contingency plan. Now their "contingency" is a reliever in the 5 hole who had a 1.5+ WHIP and [b']a kid who they will be rushing back from a cancer recovery[/b].

 

So it's obvious that you have to be a dick. They won't rush Lester. Keep reaching b/c you had such a woody when you thought Tavarez would be the closer. Now you look pathetic.

 

mjriv, bbdoc, TheRivernator is rearing his ugly head.

 

Focus on your f***ing team and their issues. The Sox are fine for now.

 

Keep up the good work doc! Don't disappoint. I know you won't.

[BoSox21]

it's not a huge hole. the top 3 guys in the rotation have reasonable shots at having an ERA under 4, Wakefield is always good for something in the low to mid 4 range and the best pretty much every team can hope for from their 5th starter is an ERA under 5. Until Lester can resume a full-time role with the big club, I think Tavarez gives us a decent shot at having a serviceable 5th starter for now.

 

Besides, worst case scenario, a 5th starter is far easier to pick up outside the organization than a closer is

 

The key in all this is the fact that we didn't have a solid closer, a guy who can solidify arguably the most important role in a pitching staff. You can have all the great starting pitching you want, it means s*** if the relievers can't hold the lead

[riverside sluggers]

either way' date=' it is interesting to say the least. Papelbon as the closer makes the sox bullpen have a nice hammer at the end but it leaves a huge hole in the rotation. Either way, the sox didnt have a contingency plan. Now their "contingency" is a reliever in the 5 hole who had a 1.5+ WHIP and a kid who they will be rushing back from a cancer recovery.[/quote']

 

If a team's biggest hole is their 5th starter... isnt that the case for most teams? And whose to say that Tavarez will hold down the slot until Lester is ready to come up? Last time I heard, 5th starters are easier to acquire in trades than closers are.

[riverside sluggers]

Papelbon was a better reliever than he was a closer. As a reliever' date=' he had the second best ERA for a pitcher throwing over 50IP of relief. As a closer, he saved 85% of his SvOpps which is good for 15th in players with over 20 saves.[/quote']

 

Sooo now youre saying he wasnt a dominant closer last year?

[jacksonianmarch]

he was a dominant closer. But his dominance was in all phases of relieving. My point is, the rest of the pen was so unreliable that he was used in multiple roles.

[jacksonianmarch]

So it's obvious that you have to be a dick. They won't rush Lester. Keep reaching b/c you had such a woody when you thought Tavarez would be the closer. Now you look pathetic.

 

mjriv, bbdoc, TheRivernator is rearing his ugly head.

 

Focus on your f***ing team and their issues. The Sox are fine for now.

 

Keep up the good work doc! Don't disappoint. I know you won't.

 

VA, what are you talking about? Paps back at closer makes the sox better. It does. But it does open a hole. Dont think it doesnt.

[BoSox21]

of course it opens up a hole but id rather the hole be the 5th starter instead of the closer

[jacksonianmarch]

My point is that the sox FO should have had a contingency plan. They had no closer, so Paps leaves the rotation to fill that hole. Now they dont have a solid #4, which is what Paps would have been. And one of the sox biggest weaknesses was depth in the rotation. You lose Paps from that rotation and you essentially force Gabbard, Pauley and Snyder to be the next options, while removing Tavarez from mop up duty. If the sox were kicking this idea around, they should have brought in a guy who has better upside than what they have. That is all I am saying.

[VA Sox Fan]

of course it opens up a hole but id rather the hole be the 5th starter instead of the closer

 

Amen and Thank You BoSox21, I'm with you.

 

But I'm sooooo afraid b/c the Yankees are sooooooo solid w/ no holes.....faaaack you Jacko.......

[jacksonianmarch]

Amen and Thank You BoSox21, I'm with you.

 

But I'm sooooo afraid b/c the Yankees are sooooooo solid w/ no holes.....faaaack you Jacko.......

 

the yankees have holes in the rotation as well. But we are in the sox section. If you want to bring up the yankees shortcomings, there is a yankee section.

[VA Sox Fan]

My point is that the sox FO should have had a contingency plan. They had no closer' date=' so Paps leaves the rotation to fill that hole. Now they dont have a solid #4, which is what Paps would have been. And one of the sox biggest weaknesses was depth in the rotation. You lose Paps from that rotation and you essentially force Gabbard, Pauley and Snyder to be the next options, while removing Tavarez from mop up duty. If the sox were kicking this idea around, they should have brought in a guy who has better upside than what they have. That is all I am saying.[/quote']

 

 

I see what you're saying, but regardless, we're better off today than we were yesterday.

 

Regardless of what others think about how long our starter's will go, I'm not worried. Of course things will be crazy from time to time.

 

I'm psyched. And no one's opinion will change that. We'll see what happens.

[BoSox21]

My point is that the sox FO should have had a contingency plan. They had no closer' date=' so Paps leaves the rotation to fill that hole. Now they dont have a solid #4, which is what Paps would have been. And one of the sox biggest weaknesses was depth in the rotation. You lose Paps from that rotation and you essentially force Gabbard, Pauley and Snyder to be the next options, while removing Tavarez from mop up duty. If the sox were kicking this idea around, they should have brought in a guy who has better upside than what they have. That is all I am saying.[/quote']

 

I can agree with you on that. But its an opportunity for a lot of guys to claim that #5 spot and if no one can, im sure the FO will make a move, they've invested too much into this season not to

[riverside sluggers]

My point is that the sox FO should have had a contingency plan. They had no closer' date=' so Paps leaves the rotation to fill that hole. Now they dont have a solid #4, which is what Paps would have been. And one of the sox biggest weaknesses was depth in the rotation. You lose Paps from that rotation and you essentially force Gabbard, Pauley and Snyder to be the next options, while removing Tavarez from mop up duty. If the sox were kicking this idea around, they should have brought in a guy who has better upside than what they have. That is all I am saying.[/quote']

 

Im pretty sure Snyder is now the favorite to do mop up/long innings/spot starting. Are you ruling out the possibility the Sox wheeling a trade for a decent 5th starter? Are you suggesting whatsoever that the Sox are set for a revolving door of Tavarez/Pauley/Gabbard/Snyder for the entire season?

[VA Sox Fan]

the yankees have holes in the rotation as well. But we are in the sox section. If you want to bring up the yankees shortcomings' date=' there is a yankee section.[/quote']

 

I feel dirty going over there, you know on the Dark Side of things and all......

 

But thanks a lot Mr. Moderator.

[CrespoBlows]

Amen and Thank You BoSox21, I'm with you.

 

But I'm sooooo afraid b/c the Yankees are sooooooo solid w/ no holes.....faaaack you Jacko.......

 

I'd rather have a pitcher get 600 outs, rather than only 180 outs.

 

The Red Sox could have found someone who could have pitched one solid inning. It's going to be harder to find one who can pitch six solid his turn out.

[jacksonianmarch]

I feel dirty going over there, you know on the Dark Side of things and all......

 

But thanks a lot Mr. Moderator.

 

well, one of the things I want to do is keep yankee s*** in the yankee section. Bringing yankee s*** here is a great way to get yourself thrown into the fire.

[BoSox21]

Im pretty sure Snyder is now the favorite to do mop up/long innings/spot starting. Are you ruling out the possibility the Sox wheeling a trade for a decent 5th starter? Are you suggesting whatsoever that the Sox are set for a revolving door of Tavarez/Pauley/Gabbard/Snyder for the entire season?

 

personally, id be shocked if the Sox would let the 5th starter be the downfall on this team, one that has clearly been built to make a serious run at the title

[EvilDonut]

Papelbon was a better reliever than he was a closer. As a reliever, he had the second best ERA for a pitcher throwing over 50IP of relief. As a closer, he saved 85% of his SvOpps which is good for 15th in players with over 20 saves.

 

 

Saves are Meaningless, the only runs he gave up happen to be when their up by one. Jenks had 40 some saves and blew 4 with a 4.00 era, is he better then Paps?

[VA Sox Fan]

well' date=' one of the things I want to do is keep yankee s*** in the yankee section. Bringing yankee s*** here is a great way to get yourself thrown into the fire.[/quote']

 

Yep, you would know, I don't tend to have those problems.

 

Yeah, EvilDonut, saves don't mean s***, what was I thinking?

[CrespoBlows]

Yeah, EvilDonut, saves don't mean s***, what was I thinking?

 

I think he meant, it's an overrated stat.

 

You could put any mediocre reliever in the ninth inning, and he would get a lot of saves. Shawn Chacon had 35 saves as a closer in one year. Do you want to take a guess at his ERA?

[jacksonianmarch]

Saves are immensely important. The point is, Papelbon was the link holding the sox staff together last yr. Late in the game, sox had a small lead, who comes in? Paps!

 

Sox are tied late in a game, who comes in? Paps!

 

Sox are down 1 late in a game, who comes in? Paps!

 

He was the setup man, closer, reliever to keep it close, and reliever until the sox won the game. He filled tons of roles and pitched too many innings, especially late. If the sox stick to their "guidelines" then Paps is pitching 50 innings this yr. Who takes the other 25+ when the game is on the line? And note, those 25 innings are typically 25 1-inning stints. You better hope Donnelly stops the slide.

[EvilDonut]

Yep, you would know, I don't tend to have those problems.

 

Yeah, EvilDonut, saves don't mean s***, what was I thinking?

 

Well they really don't. There based on Circumstance, like wins. There a good way to measure a pitcher, but dont look to deep into them.

[VA Sox Fan]

I think he meant, it's an overrated stat.

 

You could put any mediocre reliever in the ninth inning, and he would get a lot of saves. Shawn Chacon had 35 saves as a closer in one year. Do you want to take a guess at his ERA?

 

I'm not good at guessing. I guess Foulke was overated in 2004, especially in the post season. Without his performance......who knows what would have been.......:dunno:

[jacksonianmarch]

Chacon's era that yr was 7+

[EvilDonut]

Chacon's era that yr was 7+

 

See, rather meaning less VA, if youre up by three runs, the closer comes in and allows two he still gets the save. It doesnt mean hes good, just lucky.

 

but then again maybe its based on clutch. And that he becomes a different animal when the game is closer. I dont know.

[jacksonianmarch]

some guys cannot handle it. See: Arthur Rhodes.

[VA Sox Fan]

See, rather meaning less VA, if youre up by three runs, the closer comes in and allows two he still gets the save. It doesnt mean hes good, just lucky.

 

but then again maybe its based on clutch. And that he becomes a different animal when the game is closer. I dont know.

 

I see what your are saying Evil D.

 

I'm just glad Paps is the closer, as he should be.

 

Thanks for the great discussion/banter. You guys rock! G'night!

[CrespoBlows]

I'm not good at guessing. I guess Foulke was overated in 2004' date=' especially in the post season. Without his performance......who knows what would have been.......:dunno:[/quote']

 

Knock off the straw man argument.

 

Look deeper at Keith Foulke's statistics in 2004:

 

Foulke WHIP: 0.94

Foulke K/9 : 8.75

Foulke ERA: 2.17

 

These numbers are what a dominant closer holds. I'll look at these, before I look at saves. Saves are fun to keep track of, but they do not tell a whole lot about the pitcher.

 

Let's bring up Chacon again:

 

Chacon WHIP: 1.94

Chacon K/9: 7.43

Chacon ERA: 7.11

 

Would you want this guy pitching in the ninth inning? Would you even want this guy on your team?

[RedSoxRooter]

After about 10 minutes of thought on the subject, my reaction is that this team (in my eyes) went from playoff contender to WS contender. Look, it was only a matter of time before Pap went back to the pen if the team didn't have a closer by mid season. My call was the All-Star break, but hey, even better he start the year there.

 

By ALL accounts, Pap's shoulder is in the best shape strengthwise it's ever been. So why not? He's not against this move and he's only making 400k/year. If he really thought he might be injured by this move do you think he'd risk the millions he's bound to get in the future as a starter? He may be a hick, but he's not stupid.

 

I think Lester is on the A Train to the Majors in a couple of months so Snyder (not Tavarez) should get the call to hold down the 5 spot until then. Good move because it was going to happen anyway.