Red Sox in discussions with Rockies about Helton

[example1]

His 80 was vs the Royals. I could post an 80 against he royals.

 

His best season was a 1.15WHIP in AA. That is true.

 

But in 2003 he was in A ball and had a pretty poor 1.38.

 

In 2004 his WHIP was in the 1.33 range between A and A+ ball

 

In 2005, he had a career minor league yr in AA. 1.15WHIP, but his walk rate was only down 0.2/9IP. His H/9IP went down 1.2/9IP. This insinuates that even though his WHIP dropped, his control only minimally improved.

 

In 2006, he had a 1.46WHIP in AAA, which is pathetic. This is mostly due to a 1.5BB/9IP increase. His H/9IP went up by 1 per 9 as well as could be expected with a jump of level. Then he went to the majors and put up the stinker of a 1.65WHIP.

 

Therefore, you can see that his control was never strong and it ballooned worse when he was rushed.

 

So how do you explain Chein-Ming Wang's 44 against KC on September 4th, or his 50 on May 27th? Isn't he the guy you say is the Yankees best pitcher? Wang's best game was an 82, against Tampa Bay. Wang's average game score of 50 isn't all that impressive, despite different BB numbers.

 

Lester struck out 60 to Wang's 76 (81.1 IP vs 218 IP). 4 years younger I have plenty of faith that Lester will be a fine #3 pitcher in 3 years, particularly because he'll be on a team with 3 other stud pitchers.

 

I can't think of a whole lot of 94 mph throwing, 23 year old lefties out there.

[jacksonianmarch]

He can hit 94 just like Wang can hit 99. One in a blue moon.

[jacksonianmarch]

and Lester walked 43 to Wang's 52 in a third the innings.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_5312152,00.html

 

Colorado wants one of the following:

Ellsbury, Hansen, Bard, Buchholz and the sox refuse to part with them

 

Talks are currently at a standstill.

[pats55sox45]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_5312152,00.html

 

Colorado wants one of the following:

Ellsbury, Hansen, Bard, Buchholz and the sox refuse to part with them

 

Talks are currently at a standstill.

 

what happened to delcarmen

and how has bard done btw, havent heard much

[jacksonianmarch]

he signed too late to play in MiLB.

[a700hitter]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_5312152,00.html

 

Colorado wants one of the following:

Ellsbury, Hansen, Bard, Buchholz and the sox refuse to part with them

 

Talks are currently at a standstill.

MDC is also in that group. Give them MDC or Hansen.

[example1]

He can hit 94 just like Wang can hit 99. One in a blue moon.

 

Here's Lester and the paper saying he can hit 94. Now, show me where Wang has ever hit 99.

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/08/12/lester_learning_to_be_a_leader/?page=2

[jacksonianmarch]

I should have put 98. I have seen him hit 98 many times.

[TheKilo]

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_5312152,00.html

 

Colorado wants one of the following:

Ellsbury, Hansen, Bard, Buchholz and the sox refuse to part with them

 

Talks are currently at a standstill.

 

 

It won't, and really shouldn't get done unless its Hansen.

 

And the more I think about it, if this is just a salary dump for the Rox (which it is) we shouldn't even have to give up Hansen.

 

There's also the notion that Helton was awful last year...but I guess I can chalk it up to illness.

 

I think he can bounce back and be a very serviceable player. Not the one he was 3 or 4 years ago, but he'd be an improvement over Youkilis at first.

 

 

Again, if Bucholz, Bowden, or Ellsbury are mentioned, the Sox walk away. They don't have to make this deal. They hold a lot of power in negotiations.

[example1]

I should have put 98. I have seen him hit 98 many times.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chien-Ming_Wang

 

This is more what I was looking for. it says 97.

 

For a guy who can throw that hard I can't help but wonder why he's so prone to contact. He's a very good pitcher, but it is curious. He certainly doesn't seem like a guy who throws 97.

 

Lester has never had a chance in the pros to relax and throw without feeling like he has something to prove. That's not to say he doesn't have anything to prove, he does, but last year he pitched on the edge a lot. By which I mean he got himself deep into counts trying to make perfect pitches, and had those bad innings where he got himself into trouble. He had a marked ability to get himself out of trouble too, which I imagine is something that has always been with him, as his WHIP is average but his success has been definitely above average.

 

He was thrown into the mix much too early last year, but he survived. He's a great athlete with deceptive stuff. I think of him and Hansen as opposites at this point. Hansen needs to get hungry and attack the strike zone with his stuff, and not care if he gives up a walk or two in the process because he will always be throwing his pitch. Lester, on the other hand, is bull-doggish on the mound and he attacks the strike zone with his pitch most of the time. He walks too many but also gets a good number of K's and can work out of jams, seemingly with increased concentration (or luck).

[mar_022]

so from that article, it sounds like MDC, Lowell, and Tavarez get it done. I love MDC, but i think the sox are better if they make this trade. I'm actually surprised theo hasnt pulled the trigger...goes to show how adamant he is about not trading young pitching after last years blunders. maybe he also thinks MDC has a ligit shot at being the closer and doesnt want to trade that away

[example1]

so from that article' date=' it sounds like MDC, Lowell, and Tavarez get it done. I love MDC, but i think the sox are better if they make this trade. I'm actually surprised theo hasnt pulled the trigger...goes to show how adamant he is about not trading young pitching after last years blunders. maybe he also thinks MDC has a ligit shot at being the closer and doesnt want to trade that away[/quote']

 

This is where we see how strong a reaction Theo has when confronted with a situation in which he loses pitching. Last year he admitted that the biggest mistake was not having the depth the team needed. This year he's added some pen depth and some starting depth, but the question is whether its enough to make him feel comfortable giving up ANY pitching. Let's hope he's not frozen in his "keep pitching at all costs" mode to pull the trigger on a deal that could net a tremendous hitter at a still useful age.

[ksushi]

MDC will post a sub-3 ERA even in Colorado. I personally think he doesn't fit in here to do much outside of mop-up. I'd do it. I love MDC though.

[TedWilliams101]

Getting this trade done is an absolute MUST. This is perfect for the sox. We could end up dumping Clement, tavarez, and maybe one prospect to pick up Helton. That gives us one the a huge threat for the middle of the lineup and great defense. We could move Youk to 3rd and ship out Lowell and maybe someone else for Scott Linebrink and could have either him or Pineiro as the closer. Makes the Pen, defense, and offense much better. So we may have to give up a prospect, but if we can get Helton and maybe turn around and get linebrink out of this, its a HUGE steal. The Sox have made some terrible trades the last 2 years, lets see them get a steal here. Don't let me down FO.

[BSN07]

Ellsbury won't be involved COL just got Wily Taveras in the Jennings to Houston deal. So there set at young CF. If it's trues that COL will eat 40M or half of the contract then Helton at 8M or so a yr for the next 5yrs is a nice bargin.

 

I do any combo of the following,

 

Taveras,Clement, Lowell

Clement,Lowell, MDC

Taveras,Lowell,MDC

Lowell,Clement,MDC

 

If we have to give a top prospect, Hansen,Bard,Bowen,Buscholz,Ellsbury or MDC, my choice is obviousley MDC. I think Hansen can bounce back and should start the season in AAA. The three B's have to be categorized in the "Untouchables" catergory I would think. Atleast until we know more about them. If we can dump Clement in any of this it is a sweet deal.

[riverside sluggers]

I dont get that the talks are at a stand still

 

Sox get Todd Helton, Colorado paying half of Helton's remaining salary

Colorado gets Julian Tavarez, Mike Lowell, Manny Delcarmen

[Cityofchampions33]

Ill take a still talented Todd Helton at 8-9 mill per. I'd give up any combo of Clement, Tavarez, Lowell, or MDC. What I'm bankin on is that Colo will get desperate to move him and just take Lowell, Tavrez and a prospect not named earlier. They seem to be ready to part ways with Helton and his 90 mill to make way for a prospect of theirs, and already failed dealing with teh Angels. Hell, if they're interested in these players, theyre already showin it too.

[BSN07]

The reason there at a stand still is it was reorted COL GM was out of town on family buisness and talks would resume Monday(today) or Tuesday. Helton wants a deal either done quick or he will veto it. He doesn't want any distractions leading up to ST. So the deal either gets done this week, or it won't get done at all.

 

1.Lugo

2.Drew/Helton

3.Papi

4.Manny

5.Drew/Helton

6.Youk

7.Tek

8.Crisp

9.Pedroia

 

That looks so pretty...:thumbsup: But if the deal falls threw like it has a big chance of doing I still think we have a good lineup going into 07.

[riverside sluggers]

God I like that lineup, even more so with Drew at 2nd, Helton at 5th behind Manny. That lineup is OBP happy and will give the starting rotation oodles of run support, not like they will apparently need any... but still

 

This Helton deal is looking like the real thing, I'll be shocked if Theo lets this slip through his fingers

[BSN07]

Ya RS I have to agree this looks like a sweet deal, with only having to pay half his contract and having a chance to dump Clement's worthless ass is beautiful. And only having to give up a RP prospect is nice too. If they will take Lowell and Clement and 1 prospect you have to do it. Lowell is awesome with the glove but he won't be back next year so we might as well cash in on him now.

[jacksonianmarch]

I dont get that the talks are at a stand still

 

Sox get Todd Helton, Colorado paying half of Helton's remaining salary

Colorado gets Julian Tavarez, Mike Lowell, Manny Delcarmen

 

that sounds like a logical choice, but the rocky mountain news is reporting that this thing is fading. They are saying that Epstein has held pat completely and refuses to part with more young talent after what occurred last yr. Lucchino on the other hand, sounds eager to get this done and this denver paper (granted, not in the sox loop) believes that another power struggle is in the way of this deal.

 

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/mlb/article/0,2777,DRMN_23924_5312977,00.html

 

The fact that the sox think they can get Helton at half price for Lowell and Tavares is comical. Adding in Clement is even more comical, the guy wont even pitch this yr most likely. They will need to send them a young pitcher from their stable or this s*** doesnt get done.

[jacksonianmarch]

The reason there at a stand still is it was reorted COL GM was out of town on family buisness and talks would resume Monday(today) or Tuesday. Helton wants a deal either done quick or he will veto it. He doesn't want any distractions leading up to ST. So the deal either gets done this week, or it won't get done at all.

 

1.Lugo

2.Drew/Helton

3.Papi

4.Manny

5.Drew/Helton

6.Youk

7.Tek

8.Crisp

9.Pedroia

 

That looks so pretty...:thumbsup: But if the deal falls threw like it has a big chance of doing I still think we have a good lineup going into 07.

 

 

talks will resume this morning on a conference call.

[hoke3182]

Trading Lowell isn't that much of a downgrade, considering Youk could put up comparable numbers. No not the same but at least it wouldn't that much of a downfall. If they don't pull this deal off they'll regret it.

[jacksonianmarch]

I am not sure if they will regret it. If Helton continues his slide and the sox obtain him, then this could be a terribly bad deal.

[elsrbueno]

I'll admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread-- way too many in 11 pages, so if I'm duplicating someone else's opinion that I didn't happen to notice I apologize.

 

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't give up much value for Todd Helton. He's 33 years old, his power the last 2 years has been declining, and there's no way he's a $15 million player IMO. Sure, he'll probably maintain a .300 average and a decent OBP throughout, but when a 33 year old player declines in power 2 years running (especially in this day and age) you start to ask questions. Not to mention that his home/road splits (and his home games are played in Colorado) were pretty substantial last season.

 

The Red Sox IMO would be retarded to give up any top 10 prospects for this guy. He looks like he's in the decline and there's a SUBSTANTIAL financial commitment here. If they can buy low (meaning giving less than what he's worth) and the Rockies eat at least half his contract, I'd say go for it-- but otherwise he's a waste of time and effort.

 

If this trade goes down and the Rockies get any of the highly talented Red Sox prospects I'll be pissed.

[TheKilo]

I'll admit I didn't read all the posts in this thread-- way too many in 11 pages, so if I'm duplicating someone else's opinion that I didn't happen to notice I apologize.

 

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't give up much value for Todd Helton. He's 33 years old, his power the last 2 years has been declining, and there's no way he's a $15 million player IMO. Sure, he'll probably maintain a .300 average and a decent OBP throughout, but when a 33 year old player declines in power 2 years running (especially in this day and age) you start to ask questions. Not to mention that his home/road splits (and his home games are played in Colorado) were pretty substantial last season.

 

The Red Sox IMO would be retarded to give up any top 10 prospects for this guy. He looks like he's in the decline and there's a SUBSTANTIAL financial commitment here. If they can buy low (meaning giving less than what he's worth) and the Rockies eat at least half his contract, I'd say go for it-- but otherwise he's a waste of time and effort.

 

If this trade goes down and the Rockies get any of the highly talented Red Sox prospects I'll be pissed.

 

 

 

You. Nail. Head.

 

Helton is a significant health issue. He was pretty bad last year, but had an intestinal disease, which caused him to lose 15 pounds.

 

I think he'd be an OK addition to the lineup, but he isn't the hitter of three years ago anymore. He's not going to make any lineup a "murderer's row".

 

Would I part with MDC for him? I guess...but I'd be a lot more hesitant to do it than most. Why can't we offer Colorado a couple of middle tier pitching prospects (Hansack, Pauley, Gabbard) for Helton? Guys like Pauley are young, cost controlled, and should be able to make the back end of the Colorado rotation.

[ksushi]

With the Rockies picking up half of his contract he becomes an 8 - 10 million a year player, and if he can get on base at a clip of .4something and hit .3something while seeing 3.9 pitches per PA, I jump at that. Declining power or not, whatever he slugs is considered the icing. I give up whatever it takes. Hansen I try to keep. Bucholz I would help pack.

[TheKilo]

With the Rockies picking up half of his contract he becomes an 8 - 10 million a year player' date=' and if he can get on base at a clip of .4something and hit .3something while seeing 3.9 pitches per PA, I jump at that. Declining power or not, whatever he slugs is considered the icing. I give up whatever it takes. Hansen I try to keep. Bucholz I would help pack.[/quote']

 

In all honesty I'd prefer them to deal Bard.

 

Hansen, if the deal goes down, will probably be the one though.

[ksushi]

I don't think so. I think MDC or Bucholz, I think Theo really likes Hansen or else he would have never broken team policy to give him a major league contract. They really wanted him, I doubt they trade him. He coveted Lester and Papelbon, and we got offered a lot for them in a lot of different trades and nothing could pry them loose. I think Hansen might be the same way.

 

I can see why trading Bard might not be so bad. I'd prefer to keep a power arm like that and trade MDC. See what happens over the next year or so with Bard, but MDC is like 25-26 now, and he is still a question mark. Questionable control of his breaker and a flat fastball. I like what he does when he's on, but he has never been on consistently at the major league level. The Rox, by all accounts so far, consider him to be one of our elite prospects, I would deal him to get Helton before I dealt Bard because Bard has a higher ceiling.