Red Sox in discussions with Rockies about Helton

[a700hitter]

The bottom of the lineup is very weak.

[Cityofchampions33]

We have a very decently bult team for now and the future, if we're going to make any trade it should be for a young player.

[ksushi]

Pedroia has to be considered an unknown at this point. Varitek Youk and Pedroia at the back end isn't terrible. Varitek needs to have a pulse this year, and I don't see whats wrong with Youk. I love Youk's production.

[a700hitter]

Pedroia has to be considered an unknown at this point. Varitek Youk and Pedroia at the back end isn't terrible. Varitek needs to have a pulse this year' date=' and I don't see whats wrong with Youk. I love Youk's production.[/quote']He has no power. He k's at an alarming rate. He has no speed. He has an average glove and an average arm. He's a marginal major league starter. He's a bench player PHer type.

[NateGrey]

not even close

 

.. Even if I edited KJ out to add Clement IMO Lowell , Murphy , Kyle Jackson & Pauley would get it done .. IT'S A SALARY DUMP DUDE ..

 

 

.. Exp; The Abreu deal ..

[TheKilo]

He has no power. He k's at an alarming rate. He has no speed. He has an average glove and an average arm. He's a marginal major league starter. He's a bench player PHer type.

 

SSS

[ksushi]

I disagree about youk

 

120 K's in 500+ AB's isn't great but there isn't anything 'alarming' about it. He has an above average glove at first, very above average. I watched him play all year long and I love a good first basemen. I was very pleased with what he did on defense this year, I don't think many disagree with that.

 

Now, I don't know what the average BA is in the MLB but I'm willing to bet .279 is better than the average. A .381 OBP is above average. And not every player with marginal power is automatically a marginal major leaguer.

[a700hitter]

I disagree about youk

 

120 K's in 500+ AB's isn't great but there isn't anything 'alarming' about it.

It's alarming for a guy that hits 13 HRs/year.

He has an above average glove at first' date=' very above average. I watched him play all year long and I love a good first basemen. I was very pleased with what he did on defense this year, I don't think many disagree with that.[/quote']He was a pleasant surprise at 1B because the expectations were low and he had never played the position. Nevertheless, he is an average fielder. No Gold Gloves will be coming his way.

Now, I don't know what the average BA is in the MLB but I'm willing to bet .279 is better than the average.

The Red Sox team BA from 2003-2005 was higher.

A .381 OBP is above average. And not every player with marginal power is automatically a marginal major leaguer.

It's not the fact that he has no power that makes him a marginal major leaguer. It's the fact that he has marginal skills. He's slow, with a noodle arm, a slow bat, and no power. Where is the major league skill? Hard work has gotten him this far and he should be admired for that, but he's a bench player at best. His upside is being a Scott Hatteburg type player. That's his upside.

[ksushi]

Well, we don't share the same view on it. I don't see a correlation between K's and HR's or power and position. You do. Can't change that. He wasn't an average fielder though, he was very good. What are you even basing that on?

 

A guy who can hit .280 with good on-base isn't anything to complain about from the back of the order, especially when he fields his position well.

 

And really, what does the Sox team batting average from 03-05 have to do with anything?

[riverside sluggers]

Unless we have a deal in place to acquire a closer afterwards I would say the Sox have no intentions of trading both Hansen and Delcarmen.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt Ellsbury, Hansen and Bucholz in this one.

 

I would do this trade but not all for a package of Ellsbury & Bucholz (the organizations top 2 prospects), the Sox farm will take much more of a drop to the Duquette Days

[NateGrey]

.. (Via WEEI ) According to Buster Olney the Sox & the Rox came to an agreement on the money ..

[riverside sluggers]

Thanks for the update Nate! Holy s*** is Todd Helton about to become a Red Sox?

[ksushi]

I would do this trade but not all for a package of Ellsbury & Bucholz (the organizations top 2 prospects)' date=' the Sox farm will take much more of a drop to the Duquette Days[/quote']

 

I'm aware they're the top 2 prospects. Thanks. So for now, our farm will be empty, but our roster, Helton or no Helton, is going to have a fusion of youth and veteran talent that Duquette would have never been able to put together. Our farm system is rebounding after basically emptying out into our major league roster, we had a great draft this past year, and have some potentially very talented prospects. Bowden, Cox, Bard and Place are fresh and in the lower levels but are a nice crop of prospects that could develop very nicely. So to be weary of trading our top two away when you consider the caliber of hitter we'd be getting in return might be playing it a little too conservatively.

 

It does look like, however, Lowell and Tavarez are going to be the base of this deal and apparently the money is agreed on. Maybe one more young player like a Delcarmen will put it over the top and get Helton to Boston.

[Papelbon58]

if youk or lowell is going, the Sox should no doubt prefer to trade Lowell. Youk is not a top notch player by any means, but he is a solid and dependable player on defense and offense, plays more than one position and is flexible on his placement in the lineup, he is much more valuable than Lowell for years to come.

[ksushi]

Thanks for the update Nate! Holy s*** is Todd Helton about to become a Red Sox?

 

 

No, its just the money. It doesn't mean a deal is in place at all.

[RedSoxRooter]

Am I the only one worried that this deal could suck? Helton's power numbers have dropped ridiculously in the last couple of years IN COLORADO! If you take the last couple of years, it's basically Lowell's numbers last year for 7 million a year more and he's the same age.

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally would take him but how in the hell can you all get so excited about this move and be so negative about the Drew deal?

[NateGrey]

.. According to Olney

 

In the current proposal, the Red Sox would send Lowell, Tavarez and prospects to the Rockies. But the identity of the prospects could hold up the deal: The Rockies want relief pitchers Craig Hansen and Manny Delcarmen, while the Red Sox do not want to give up either at this time.

.....

 

> http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2745139

[a700hitter]

Well, we don't share the same view on it. I don't see a correlation between K's and HR's or power and position. You do. Can't change that. He wasn't an average fielder though, he was very good. What are you even basing that on?

 

A guy who can hit .280 with good on-base isn't anything to complain about from the back of the order, especially when he fields his position well.

 

And really, what does the Sox team batting average from 03-05 have to do with anything?

A guy that hits .270 with no power needs to have a little speedl. He needs to be useful in other ways such as making productive outs by putting the ball in play, taking the extra base, stealing a base etc. High strikeout rates can be tolerated from a power hitters because they are usually big run producers. Guys that can't produce runs need to make more contact and bring something else to the table. A good OBP doesn't mean much if it takes three hits to score the guy.

 

It's similar to hard throwing strikeout pitchers that give up a lot of walks. That can be tolerated because they can get a big strikeout with a man on third and less than two outs. A soft thrower has to have better control because he can't get the big strikeout with men on base. Edit: Youlklis is like a soft thrower with bad control.

 

Edit: With regard to his fielding, Koerko and Sexson were better at !B and they are not getting paid for their glove work.

[Fried Neckbones]

I don't know if this will matter to you, but Youk had more Win Shares than anybody on the team last year not named Manny or Ortiz. No he's not flashy, he has no obvious skills, but he contributes, gets on base, plays solid d at first and third, is much younger than Lowell, and is much cheaper than Lowell. I would much rather see Lowell moved for Helton than Youk.

[a700hitter]

I don't know if this will matter to you' date=' but Youk had more Win Shares than anybody on the team last year not named Manny or Ortiz. No he's not flashy, he has no obvious skills, but he contributes, gets on base, plays solid d at first and third, is much younger than Lowell, and is much cheaper than Lowell. I would much rather see Lowell moved for Helton than Youk.[/quote']If Win Shares mean anything to GMs, then I would trade him while his value is high, because he will not be starting for an over .500 team in 3 years.

[Rdsxmbnt]

ill take that bet

[a700hitter]

ill take that bet

You are on.

[castigs850]

No' date=' its just the money. It doesn't mean a deal is in place at all.[/quote']

 

a deal may not be completely in place, and of course can fall apart with ease at this point, but with one thing down now only players to be sent is in question, this is getting very detailed at this point

[ksushi]

Oh, no doubt. I'm not saying I think a deal won't get done. I'm saying, the money being agreed upon doesn't make me think a deal will get done. I think something is going to happen, I think this is too good a deal to pass up.

 

I'll take that bet too, 700.

[Fried Neckbones]

If it takes Youk to get the deal done, I say do it. I like Youk, always have even when they were dicking him around. But the thought of Helton hitting behind Ortiz and Manny and sliding JD into the 2 hole is pretty exciting. If it's up to the FO though, and a choice between Lowell and Youk, I would hope they send Lowell.

 

Of course, I haven't heard Youk's name brought into this at all (edit: other than as speculation on our part, that is).

[example1]

If it takes Youk to get the deal done, I say do it. I like Youk, always have even when they were dicking him around. But the thought of Helton hitting behind Ortiz and Manny and sliding JD into the 2 hole is pretty exciting. If it's up to the FO though, and a choice between Lowell and Youk, I would hope they send Lowell.

 

Of course, I haven't heard Youk's name brought into this at all.

 

Youk's name is brought up because presumably this would be too many corner IFs. I think that moving Lowell would be a victory only surpassed by somehow moving Clement. Its not everything in this deal, but the sox would lose no sleep moving Lowell, putting Youk at 3B and having Helton play a well-above average 1B.

 

A deal consisting of Lowell, Tavarez and a minor leaguer for Helton would be tremendous. If we can avoid moving Youkilis I'm all for it. If I were the sox I would jump at a Hansen or Delcarmen deal over any of the three B's.

 

a700 is going to be disappointed with the Sox treatment of Youkilis as a valuable-type player, because he doesn't consistently put up the standard AVG/HR/RBI numbers that baseball fans have come to look for in their players. The sox know how valuable he is as a hitter, able to get on base, work counts, young, cheap, plays at least 2 positions, good team player. He'll be better than Scott Brosius ever was and we'll have him for years. Just my guess. (of course, he could be gone in a few hours).

 

Like Neckbones said, he had the third highest WS of any Sox player last season. He has tremendous OBP skills, he saw more pitches than just about anyone in baseball last year (and more per plate appearance than just about anyone). If you want major league skills how about looking at those numbers? He's not just okay at getting on base and seeing pitches, he's one of the best in baseball. For a couple hundred thousand a year I'll take that any day over an old, overpriced guy like Lowell for one more season without any 3B plan thereafter.

 

If this team has Ortiz, Manny, Drew and Helton 3-6 then high OBP guys will be at a premium for scoring runs.

[ksushi]

Lugo

Drew

Ortiz

Manny

Helton

Youk

Tek

Pedroia

Crisp

 

With our pitching staff, and any pulse from our bullpen we could win 100 games. Thats why this is a very cool deal.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I'm not THAT excited about this deal. Based on the trend of Todd Helton (reduced power and certainly passed his prime) how much of a difference would he really make? I have no problem with the current defense on the corners (both Lowell and Youk have good gloves). I would expect Helton to hit 20 HRs but is that any better than Youkilis or Lowell? Todd Helton may do well hitting in Fenway but will it be any better than Colorado? (best hitting park in baseball). I'm not trying to say Todd Helton is not a good player because thats stupid. I'm thinking the young arms can make a larger difference on our baseball team in the long run than an older Todd Helton.

 

You can bet between Delcarmen, Hansen, and the three B boys....one of them (if not more) will become real good pitchers. Wouldn't it suck to trade the wrong one and give the Rockies a top young pitcher for an expensive past-his-prime 1st baseman who is losing his power?

[CrespoBlows]

.. According to Olney

 

 

.....

 

> http://proxy.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2745139

 

Wow, that's a rip off.

[scaffolds]

If Win Shares mean anything to GMs' date=' then I would trade him while his value is high, because he will not be starting for an over .500 team in 3 years.[/quote']

 

I have talked about Youkilis until i have turned blue, however i don't see both Helton and Lowell on the same line up, because of their salaries, but the only reason any other organization may have a preference of Youkilis over lowell is because of Youkilis's salary in 2007 and not because of the difference in age or baseball talent.