manny still going ?

[Vinny]

Since when do the '04 and '02 versions of the teams affect where they stand now?

If they were gonna include a 2-1 '04 record a '02 sweep at Dodger Stadium has to be included.

[Vinny]

dude' date=' the NL is the JV league. Their pitchers come over here and suck. They go to your league they are good. For example, look at the entire cardinals pitching staff. Carpenter couldnt cut it in Toronto, Suppan was run out of Boston, Weaver was run out of the ALWest for god sakes. They won a world series against a team that couldnt hit but got hot at the right time. BTW, if the NL is so good, why was the AL 56 games over .500 against the NL last season?[/quote']

You can't just say pitchers suck in one league and not the other and it proves what league is better. It takes time to adjust. There's also been pitchers and hitters that leave the AL to join the NL and don't put up the same numbers. Include steroids and who started using and who stopped using, and there goes your comparisons.

[jacksonianmarch]

You can't just say pitchers suck in one league and not the other and it proves what league is better. It takes time to adjust. There's also been pitchers and hitters that leave the AL to join the NL and don't put up the same numbers. Include steroids and who started using and who stopped using' date=' and there goes your comparisons.[/quote']

 

steroids were all over. Dont start accusing one league of introducing them. For every Canseco there is a Sosa.

[CrespoBlows]

McGwire as well, and what about Bonds?

[Cityofchampions33]

Care to post the record from the last series between LAD and the Sox?

 

Other than the playoffs (when Drew forgot how to run the bases), LA did fine against the Mets. If you're using that to gage how good the NL West is, then you have problems.

 

LA takes one of TB's best starting pitchers in Hendrickson and sends him to their bullpen. that's enough to tell me where they stand vs the AL East.

 

All I see in the AL East are 2 teams who spend cash like there's no tomorrow, and the myopic fans of those teams think they (and their division apparently) own baseball.

 

How is the lasts eries relevant to how the Sox are now compared to the Dodgers (unless you really want to get into that). I'm not saying theyre horrible, but your pissin' in the wind if you think the NL West is better than any of the AL divisions, or NL divisions for that matter.

I never said the Rays were better than the Dodgers, but they're not miles below them either.

Btw, just in case you didn't notice, the Jays own the 6th higehst paid player in the world, so it's not just 2 teams. And I don't think the AL eats owns baseball (money-wise yes) but I think the AL Central is the best division.

[SCM33]

You can't just say pitchers suck in one league and not the other and it proves what league is better. It takes time to adjust. There's also been pitchers and hitters that leave the AL to join the NL and don't put up the same numbers. Include steroids and who started using and who stopped using' date=' and there goes your comparisons.[/quote']

 

Name some?

 

 

I can name a bunch of guys going from the AL to NL who did great, and a bunch of NL guys who went to the AL who stunk it up.

 

Randy Johnson stinks now

Jaret Wright stinks now

Carl Pavano stinks now

Jeff Suppan is good in the NL

Sammy Sosa stunk in AL

Chan Ho Park stunk in AL

Alan Embree is good again in SD

Matt Clement stinks now

Tony Clark hit 30 HR in the NL last year outta nowhere

Javier Vazquez sucked in NY after many good seasons in the NL

John Burkett in the NL, then Boston

Edgar Renterria had a fine season after a horrific one in Boston

Bob Wickman putting up a 1.04 ERA in ATL

Javy Lopez post ATL days

Latroy Hawkins

Bronson Arroyo got better

BK Kim lost his career in the AL

Denny Neagle lost his career in NY, before he went to CO

AJ Burnett did worse in the AL

Josh Beckett did worse in the AL

Roger Clemens in the NL

Reggie Sanders blew in the AL

John Lieber in the NL (winning 17 games in 05)

Woody Williams pitched much better in the NL

Brett Tomko in the NL

Richie Sexson in the AL

Adrian Beltre in the AL

Eddie Guardado in the NL

David Eckstein has been great in the NL

Chris Carpenter in the NL

Tony Womack blew ass in the AL

Greg Vaughn in the AL

Vinny Castilla in the AL

Steve Traschel when he returned to the NL after being in the AL

Francisco Cordero and his 1.69 ERA in the NL this year

Esteban Loaiza back in the NL

 

 

There are probably many more I missed....I doubt you can put together that kind of a list.

[Papelbon58]

That deserves an owned.

[example1]

That deserves an owned.

 

I second that. Nice list.

[TheKilo]

If they were gonna include a 2-1 '04 record a '02 sweep at Dodger Stadium has to be included.

 

 

I'm saying neither the '04 nor '02 teams should be used as a guage of how good the '07s will be.

[Plumpamania]

I second that. Nice list.

 

Even a "pwnd".

[SCM33]

Between that list, and the statistics I posted ealier in this thread about win/loss records, interleague play, and WS wins, I have a hard time seeing his point.

[Vinny]

Name some?

 

 

I can name a bunch of guys going from the AL to NL who did great, and a bunch of NL guys who went to the AL who stunk it up.

 

Randy Johnson stinks now

Jaret Wright stinks now

Carl Pavano stinks now

Jeff Suppan is good in the NL

Sammy Sosa stunk in AL

Chan Ho Park stunk in AL

Alan Embree is good again in SD

Matt Clement stinks now

Tony Clark hit 30 HR in the NL last year outta nowhere

Javier Vazquez sucked in NY after many good seasons in the NL

John Burkett in the NL, then Boston

Edgar Renterria had a fine season after a horrific one in Boston

Bob Wickman putting up a 1.04 ERA in ATL

Javy Lopez post ATL days

Latroy Hawkins

Bronson Arroyo got better

BK Kim lost his career in the AL

Denny Neagle lost his career in NY, before he went to CO

AJ Burnett did worse in the AL

Josh Beckett did worse in the AL

Roger Clemens in the NL

Reggie Sanders blew in the AL

John Lieber in the NL (winning 17 games in 05)

Woody Williams pitched much better in the NL

Brett Tomko in the NL

Richie Sexson in the AL

Adrian Beltre in the AL

Eddie Guardado in the NL

David Eckstein has been great in the NL

Chris Carpenter in the NL

Tony Womack blew ass in the AL

Greg Vaughn in the AL

Vinny Castilla in the AL

Steve Traschel when he returned to the NL after being in the AL

Francisco Cordero and his 1.69 ERA in the NL this year

Esteban Loaiza back in the NL

 

 

There are probably many more I missed....I doubt you can put together that kind of a list.

Wow now that's a long list that must have took alot of time. Now let me help you thin that list out.

 

Randy Johnson - Age

Jaret Wright - One fluke season in 2004. 2003 in the NL he still sucked.

Carl Pavano - Only 1 year in AL didn't adjust

Jeff Suppan - Never was a good pitcher, in AL or NL.

Sammy Sosa - Age/steroids

Chan Ho Park - Curse of the Dodgers. Still sucks eventhough he's back in NL.

Tony Clark - Fluke year in '05 he's back to sucking again.

Javier Vazquez - Didn't adjust in '04. Then traded back to NL where he sucked in '05.

John Burkett - He lost it before he went to the AL

Edgar Renterria - Only one year in AL no time to adjust.

Bob Wickman - In only 26 innings. Don't forget his Cleveland years (45 saves 2005)

Javy Lopez - Other than '03 his best year was in '04 Baltimore.

Bronson Arroyo - Dumb trade by you guys. Was good in Boston.

BK Kim - WS messed him up.

Denny Neagle - Pitched in 16 games in AL 2000. Yeah that's fair assesment.

AJ Burnett - Only 21 games in AL. Not enough games.

Josh Beckett - First year in AL

Roger Clemens - Dominated for how many years in AL??

Reggie Sanders - Age/still hasn't adjusted (only 1 year)

John Lieber - Only 1 year in AL after not pitching year before. (Not surprised)

Woody Williams - Sucks in both leagues. Stop looking at W/L records in ST. Louis (Suppan)

Brett Tomko - Sucks in both leagues.

Richie Sexson - His Seattle numbers look pretty good.

Adrian Beltre - Always was inconsistent other than '04/steroids.

Eddie Guardado - 14 innings pitched in NL.

David Eckstein - He was pretty good with the Angels to.

Tony Womack - Only one year in AL. Damn you guys are impatient.

Greg Vaughn - Took a year and a half to adjust to NL pitching. Back then Mil was AL.

Vinny Castilla - It's called Colorado. And he was injured when he was in the AL.

Steve Traschel - Only 1 year in AL, split between 2 teams.

Francisco Cordero - Wow 49 saves in '04/ 37 saves in '05 with Texas. Can you let them get healthy?

Esteban Loaiza - You do remember he won a Cy Young in the AL??

 

Now that thins out your list alot. All it shows me is that the AL signs every player with one good year and then get's rid of them if they don't produce in that first year. Not very smart at all. Takes time to adjust for most players. And of course the numbers are gonna be a little inflated in the AL due to the DH.

[Vinny]

I'm saying neither the '04 nor '02 teams should be used as a guage of how good the '07s will be.

And I agree.

[Vinny]

Between that list' date=' and the statistics I posted ealier in this thread about win/loss records, interleague play, and WS wins, I have a hard time seeing his point.[/quote']

What list?? It sure got thinned out alot. Show me again how players are better in the NL than AL, giving these players time to adjust to the new league. I also thought it was funny how many of these players were in NY or Boston and were given no time to adjust.

[a700hitter]

There is little or no talent gap between the two leagues. The AL scores more runs than the NL because of the DH. The difference between the two leagues is style of play not talent. AL pitchers will have higher ERA's than NL pitchers, and that is the only prediction that has any validity when discussing the movement of pitchers between leagues. This stqandard variation is not an indicator of success or lack of success. If a pitcher goes to the AL and his ERA goes up .50 to.75 runs, it doesn't mean that he is a flop or not successful, because the average league ERA is higher in the AL. When a pitcher goes to the NL and is successful like Clemens, it is ludicrous for people to conclude that he could not have been successful in the AL. He'd have a higher ERA, but he might actually have had more wins because he wouldn't be lifted in the 6th or 7th innings for PH's.

[SuperManny]

I see the logic but then theres pitchers like Clemens and Arroyo who weren't actually that great in the AL but then absolutely dominated the NL the next year. Arroyo's ERA dropped almost 1.25 runs, Clemens dropped a full run when switching as well.

 

Interleague play the last couple of years has shown that the AL is better IMO. Its not the greatest indicator either but when was the last time that the NL won an All Star game? 2003 was the last time the NL even won a World Series game before this year.

[BSN07]

The AL is a stronger league. It's this way because the Al teams spend more money(besides the Mets). They spend more money to bring in the better talent.

 

This looks to be changing a bit tho. CHC, LA uped there payrolls this off season to bring in talent( well CHC did, LA spent alot of money but didn't get the quality CHC got).

 

To say that the AL East isn't stronger then the NL West is just moronic. Even if your not a Sox fan, and have half a brain this isn't hard to see. The toughest division is a toss up between the AL East and AL Central. With CHW,DET, and MINN pitching and the NYY lineup, they right now are the upper teams, with the Red Sox right in there if there pitching produces the way it should and Toronto isn't far behind either. It takes 95+ wins to win either division most seasons, where it takes a +5 games over .500 maybe to win the NL West.

 

LAand SD the best of the NL West, if put in the AL divisions would have finished like this,

 

AL East= 06'-2nd(no playoffs) 05'-SD 3rd LA 5th

 

AL Central=06' -4th(no playoffs)05'-SD 4th LA 4th

 

AL West=06'-3rd(no playoffs)05'-SD 3rd LA 3rd

 

Teams from the NL West wouldn't even beable to make it to the playoffs in the AL. AL is a stronger league. Both leagues had 97 win teams(NY), both leagues have the teams that can't get out of there own way( KC,TB, SEA, PITT,CHC,COL).

 

AL 90+ win teams=5

NL 90+win teams=1

AL 82-89 win teams=3

NL 82-89 win teams=4

AL .500 or below=6

NL .500 or below=10

 

That should show where the better teams are. Trust me I like watching NL as much as AL, it's all baseball to me, but the better quality teams are in the AL.

 

As far as WS victory's go, it was proven this year no matter how bad your team is if you can get in you have as good a chance as anyone. Which I like so the WS stats aren't really that valid in this argument.

[rician blast]

Vinny says: "Chan Ho Park - Curse of the Dodgers."

 

all credibility is lost when you claim there is a curse.

[BSN07]

How can a pitcher have a curse playing for the Dodgers? Isn't it considered a pitchers park? How about he sucks and you didn't realize it until it was too late. Happens to all teams.

[a700hitter]

I see the logic but then theres pitchers like Clemens and Arroyo who weren't actually that great in the AL but then absolutely dominated the NL the next year. Arroyo's ERA dropped almost 1.25 runs, Clemens dropped a full run when switching as well.

 

Interleague play the last couple of years has shown that the AL is better IMO. Its not the greatest indicator either but when was the last time that the NL won an All Star game? 2003 was the last time the NL even won a World Series game before this year.

In Clemens last year in the AL, he was 17-9 with 190 k's. That's pretty dominating. His 3.91 ERA was .61 lower than the league ERA. In 2001 he was20-3 and won the Cy Young. Arroyo didn't dominate the NL. His ERA was lower, but again he wasn't facing DH lineups. His record was 14-11 as opposed to 14-10 in his last year as a Red Sox. The Red Sox traded him just as he was learning how to win. If he had any additional success in the NL it was probably due to the NL batters being unfamiliar with him. In the second half, he had a very difficult stretch in the second half as the batters got used to him. Same with Clemens. There was an unfamiliarity with him in his first year and he went 18-4. In his second year although his ERA was great, his record slipped to 13-8.

[a700hitter]

The AL is a stronger league. It's this way because the Al teams spend more money(besides the Mets). They spend more money to bring in the better talent.

 

This looks to be changing a bit tho. CHC, LA uped there payrolls this off season to bring in talent( well CHC did, LA spent alot of money but didn't get the quality CHC got).

 

To say that the AL East isn't stronger then the NL West is just moronic. Even if your not a Sox fan, and have half a brain this isn't hard to see. The toughest division is a toss up between the AL East and AL Central. With CHW,DET, and MINN pitching and the NYY lineup, they right now are the upper teams, with the Red Sox right in there if there pitching produces the way it should and Toronto isn't far behind either. It takes 95+ wins to win either division most seasons, where it takes a +5 games over .500 maybe to win the NL West.

 

LAand SD the best of the NL West, if put in the AL divisions would have finished like this,

 

AL East= 06'-2nd(no playoffs) 05'-SD 3rd LA 5th

 

AL Central=06' -4th(no playoffs)05'-SD 4th LA 4th

 

AL West=06'-3rd(no playoffs)05'-SD 3rd LA 3rd

 

Teams from the NL West wouldn't even beable to make it to the playoffs in the AL. AL is a stronger league. Both leagues had 97 win teams(NY), both leagues have the teams that can't get out of there own way( KC,TB, SEA, PITT,CHC,COL).

 

AL 90+ win teams=5

NL 90+win teams=1

AL 82-89 win teams=3

NL 82-89 win teams=4

AL .500 or below=6

NL .500 or below=10

 

That should show where the better teams are. Trust me I like watching NL as much as AL, it's all baseball to me, but the better quality teams are in the AL.

 

As far as WS victory's go, it was proven this year no matter how bad your team is if you can get in you have as good a chance as anyone. Which I like so the WS stats aren't really that valid in this argument.

A team with a barely .500 record beat the AL Champs in the WS and clearly outclassed the Tigers. The NL has a lot of young stars like Miggy Cabrera and Ryan Howard, while the AL stars like Manny and the entire Yankees team that are aging. I don't deny there is some talent gap, but the NL is closing fast, and I just don't think it is all that significant at this point.

[BSN07]

A team with a barely .500 record beat the AL Champs in the WS and clearly outclassed the Tigers. The NL has a lot of young stars like Miggy Cabrera and Ryan Howard' date=' while the AL stars like Manny and the entire Yankees team that are aging. I don't deny there is some talent gap, but the NL is closing fast, and I just don't think it is all that significant at this point.[/quote']

 

A700 I stated that even tho the leagues are far apart talent wise that once in the playoffs anyone can win. Yes the NL has some new up and comers, but Miguel will be in the AL once he hits FA in 2009. He is the next 20M+ a year guy, and there is no team in the NL gonna pony up that money except maybe NYM, but they already have a 3B. NL might be cathing up but it will swing back to the AL once FA plays out. The AL has more money to spend and they are willing to spend it. There aren't manny guys out there like ARAM who will sign for a hometown discount. Miguel, will be in the AL, and if Ryan Howard hits FA at some point expect him to be in the AL too as a dh/1B.

[a700hitter]

A700 I stated that even tho the leagues are far apart talent wise that once in the playoffs anyone can win. Yes the NL has some new up and comers' date=' but Miguel will be in the AL once he hits FA in 2009. He is the next 20M+ a year guy, and there is no team in the NL gonna pony up that money except maybe NYM, but they already have a 3B. NL might be cathing up but it will swing back to the AL once FA plays out. The AL has more money to spend and they are willing to spend it. There aren't manny guys out there like ARAM who will sign for a hometown discount. Miguel, will be in the AL, and if Ryan Howard hits FA at some point expect him to be in the AL too as a dh/1B.[/quote']I don't know on what you are basing the prediction about Free Agency. The Mets spend a lot of money, and they have young stars tied up for a long time Beltran, Wright, and Reyes. The Cubs are spending. The Dodgers have a big market. The Cards are not letting Pujols go anywhere. Philly would be foolish not to tie up Ryan Howard for about 7 years or so. You are just guessing about where these guys will end up.

 

Edit: Where are the young stars in the AL that will step into replace Manny, Vlad, and the Yankees.

[BSN07]

A700 I agree with you totally that the NL has the young talent right now that will blossom into the next generation of super stars. All i'm saying is the most likely will end up in the Al eventually.

 

Miguel- Rumors now are he is the next 200M guy in 2009 when hes a FA. How many teams do you know of that will pony up that type of money? STL? No. NYM? No they already have a huge contract on there team and they have a 3B of there own. LA? They will never go that big on a contract. CHC? Nope, they already have a couple big deals and a 3B. the teams that will put up that dough, and might have 3B open are in the AL. NYY,BOS, maybe LAA, TEX are the only teams that will put up that kind of money.

 

R. Howard- If he performs like he has( Ortiz like+) he will command a hefty contract. Philly might pony up, but again NYY,BOS ect will be right in the running for a player of his caliber.

 

It's no secret the NYY are getting old, they have been getting old for a few years now. Boston has a young pitching staff, but they are also ageing in certain areas( Manny,Tek, Lowell). These two teams are not real deep in the farm system with top notch position prospects. And considering neither one will want to be mediocre, they will inturn spend money to bring in the new young talented guys. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that these are the only two teams that will beable to get these guys, but if the contracts get as big as expected they have already proven they will go that far.

 

If the NL wants to keep theses guys they will have to spend like the clubs in the AL, mostly the AL East(NYY,BOS,TOR).

[a700hitter]

A700 I agree with you totally that the NL has the young talent right now that will blossom into the next generation of super stars. All i'm saying is the most likely will end up in the Al eventually.

 

Miguel- Rumors now are he is the next 200M guy in 2009 when hes a FA. How many teams do you know of that will pony up that type of money? STL? No. NYM? No they already have a huge contract on there team and they have a 3B of there own. LA? They will never go that big on a contract. CHC? Nope, they already have a couple big deals and a 3B. the teams that will put up that dough, and might have 3B open are in the AL. NYY,BOS, maybe LAA, TEX are the only teams that will put up that kind of money.

 

R. Howard- If he performs like he has( Ortiz like+) he will command a hefty contract. Philly might pony up, but again NYY,BOS ect will be right in the running for a player of his caliber.

 

It's no secret the NYY are getting old, they have been getting old for a few years now. Boston has a young pitching staff, but they are also ageing in certain areas( Manny,Tek, Lowell). These two teams are not real deep in the farm system with top notch position prospects. And considering neither one will want to be mediocre, they will inturn spend money to bring in the new young talented guys. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe that these are the only two teams that will beable to get these guys, but if the contracts get as big as expected they have already proven they will go that far.

 

If the NL wants to keep theses guys they will have to spend like the clubs in the AL, mostly the AL East(NYY,BOS,TOR).

It's doubtful that the NL clubs will let their marquis players leave. They are running a business, and it's big business. Philly has $ and a good market. Pujols will be staying in StL. The Dodgers will certainly sign up their young talent if it blossoms. Will Miggy Cabrera leave in FA to go to the AL? It has been the Marlins FO strategy to trade their stars before they hit FA and to get top talent in return. He could end up anywhere in a trade, and if a team is going to give up big talent for him, they will certainly sign him long term. Even if Cabrera leaves the NL, they still have most of the young talent, and most of them will be signed long term by their teams.

[Fried Neckbones]

I agree a700. I've posted this same thought elsewhere here, but it bears repeating. With revenue sharing/mandates that money be spent on players, the general insanity of the FA market, and the anyone can win state of the postseason, teams are going to start taking a more proactive approach to their stars, i.e. signing them to long term deals the year prior to them hitting free agency (or before other teams can get involved). Aramis, Wells, Bonderman. Baseball is actually getting closer to parity these days, and the way to stay competative is by locking up the "franchise guys" while their price is still (relatively) low. This won't be an AL only phenomenon, and most of the top young players are in the NL right now. Right now the AL is the better league, but I think the NL can close the gap in the coming years.

[Vinny]

Vinny says: "Chan Ho Park - Curse of the Dodgers."

 

all credibility is lost when you claim there is a curse.

It was a joke. I thought forsure you would get it. Credibility lost?? Reread what I wrote about the other players on the list. I also find it funny that a Red Sox fan doesn't believe in curses.

[example1]

I agree a700. I've posted this same thought elsewhere here' date=' but it bears repeating. With revenue sharing/mandates that money be spent on players, the general insanity of the FA market, and the anyone can win state of the postseason, teams are going to start taking a more proactive approach to their stars, i.e. signing them to long term deals the year prior to them hitting free agency (or before other teams can get involved). Aramis, Wells, Bonderman. Baseball is actually getting closer to parity these days, and the way to stay competative is by locking up the "franchise guys" while their price is still (relatively) low. This won't be an AL only phenomenon, and most of the top young players are in the NL right now. Right now the AL is the better league, but I think the NL can close the gap in the coming years.[/quote']

 

Yup. The gap isn't that wide. The NL doesn't do well when they play the AL during the season because pitchers tend to suck hitting no matter which league they're in, but AL teams have that speciality hitter to add that NL teams generally don't have.

[SCM33]

Wow now that's a long list that must have took alot of time. Now let me help you thin that list out.

Now that thins out your list alot. All it shows me is that the AL signs every player with one good year and then get's rid of them if they don't produce in that first year. Not very smart at all. Takes time to adjust for most players. And of course the numbers are gonna be a little inflated in the AL due to the DH.

 

Excuses bro....thats all youve done with any of my posts with actual names and numbers to back them up. Its obviously a waste of time talking to you, because you take proven facts and numbers and just make up your own bias excuse. Kindd of a whatever floats your boat deal....whatever.

 

I cant believe you actually made an excuse for about 100 players. Unf***inbelieable.

[Vinny]

Excuses bro....thats all youve done with any of my posts with actual names and numbers to back them up. Its obviously a waste of time talking to you, because you take proven facts and numbers and just make up your own bias excuse. Kindd of a whatever floats your boat deal....whatever.

 

I cant believe you actually made an excuse for about 100 players. Unf***inbelieable.

Excuses??... How about reasons. Names and numbers to back them up? All I see is names I don't see any numbers to back them up. Proven facts?? You call those proven facts? O.K.

 

And it was actually pretty easy to debunk your false conclusions. All I had to do was look at their career stats. It's always been the consensus that it takes ball players time to adjust when switching from one league to the other. But of course you think that's an excuse.

 

As for me taking the time to debunk your false conclusions. It took much less time for me to look at stats and use a little critical thinking, then it did for you to come up with that idiotic list.