Developments in Matsuzaka situation.

[TheKilo]

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?showtopic=12880&st=660

 

Rumor going around SoSH and the ESPN boards...Matsuzaka to sign Monday.

 

There are reports on a Western, MA radio station called the "Press Box" that Dice-K has a contract now in place and will sign probably Monday. No specifics on the deal but is said to be 5 years $56-60 Million. Have not seen any other reports of it anywhere so who knows. Wouldn't be a bad deal though especially when you consider the ridiculous numbers people like Meche and Lilly have gotten.

 

Matsuzaka for Meche $$? Yes please.

[TheKilo]

No legit sources, just a possibility.

[Cocos Disciples]

The ESPN boards are all utter ********.

[Cityofchampions33]

Souns too good to be true, the money isnt ridiculous and the years are too long for Boras' original demands.

[ksushi]

Well, I still think its the kind of scenario where once the bid gets accepted the possibility of a deal not getting done is almost zero. EVERYTHING favors a deal getting done. Daisuke doesn't want to miss the pay day and go back to Japan for two seasons ( does anyone know if a player can be posted twice? I think not, but I'm not sure )

 

I fully expect a deal to get done and it makes sense that one would be annouced monday because he is coming to boston for the weekend.

[example1]

Someone from Japan on that board made a really good point when discussing what Matsuzaka and the Japanese public are hoping for him to make. One person said, essentially, won't the Japanese public and Matsuzaka compare his contract with the contract's of baseball's best players, demanding that he get Roy Oswalt or Jason Schmidt money? The poster responded that what is actually more important is how Matsuzaka's salary compares to other star japanese players in the US. So, for instance, what will matter is how Matsuzaka is paid compared to Ichiro or Matsui, Okajima or Otsuka.

 

The Japense public at large are not aware of the nuances of the American baseball payroll climate. They are not a factor in how much Matsuzaka will get or expect to make. Babe Ruth could have held out for a million dollars and probably could have got it, even in that day, but he didn't know that he could have maximized his profits by sitting out or threatening to sit out. Matsuzaka is operating under the same rhuberic, no matter how much Boras wishes the situation were otherwise.

 

The "rumors" about the Sox not being close on a Matsuzaka deal came from the Globe. The Globe gets its news from the FO, and it is certainly in the FO's best interest to tell Boras that they're not afraid or unprepared to walk away. At the same time, to assume that Boras spent more than 5 minutes over the past 2 weeks on the matsuzaka is to assume that he sent his clone to the Winter meetings. In other words, both the Red Sox and Scott Boras have been busy. With matsuzaka coming back today, and the WM's over, both Boras and the Sox can addres, likely for the first time fully, Matsuzaka's future with the Red Sox. There will be the push-pull like normal, but its a fit and it will happen.

 

It's a no brainer, right? Anyone remember how Theo re-signing last year seemed like a no brainer too? It was all but assured. Let's hope they've learned from that.

[jacksonianmarch]

that is why he has an agent. Boras is well aware of the money being spent and from the sounds of it, Matsuzaka hasnt even been a part of these negotiations.

[TheKilo]

that is why he has an agent. Boras is well aware of the money being spent and from the sounds of it' date=' Matsuzaka hasnt even been a part of these negotiations.[/quote']

 

 

 

And here's the thing...when the negotiations wind down who's gonna make the last decision?

 

Exactly.

[seabeachfred]

And here's the thing...when the negotiations wind down who's gonna make the last decision?

 

Exactly.

 

My friends Matsuzaka is not coming cheap. The Meche deal cinched that for sure. Still, we had better sign the guy as soon as possible, and, please, don't anyone tell me is will get done for sure. I've seen our club blow things before---Damon, anyone? No, when I hear Daisuke is inked then I will be more than willing to join you in a cheerful swig. Not one second sooner. I'm keeping my fingers tightly crossed.: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[TheKilo]

My friends Matsuzaka is not coming cheap. The Meche deal cinched that for sure. Still' date=' we had better sign the guy as soon as possible, and, please, don't anyone tell me is will get done for sure. I've seen our club blow things before---Damon, anyone? No, when I hear Daisuke is inked then I will be more than willing to join you in a cheerful swig. Not one second sooner. I'm keeping my fingers tightly crossed.: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:[/quote']

 

 

I'm tired of discussing this...if it happens it happens. If not, then we're in trouble.

[schillingouttheks]

My friends Matsuzaka is not coming cheap. The Meche deal cinched that for sure. Still' date=' we had better sign the guy as soon as possible, and, please, don't anyone tell me is will get done for sure. I've seen our club blow things before---Damon, anyone? No, when I hear Daisuke is inked then I will be more than willing to join you in a cheerful swig. Not one second sooner. I'm keeping my fingers tightly crossed.: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:[/quote']

Well, the most LIKELY time we'll hear about the signing (assuming there is one) is on the second to last or final day of the negotiations. I wouldn't be surprised about sometime this weekend either, and Matsuzaka is in the US.

 

But yes, the point is, we had better get this done, or we're in trouble and Theo's head is on the line.

[Gom]

I have a question for the INTELLIGENT, COMMON SENSE fans of the Red Sox...please, if you are an idiot, don't reply. You know who you are, and so do I...so find some other post to discuss this particular point please...but here is the question.

 

Do you really believe that with the market explosion the way it is, that the Sox can realistically sign this guy and tie him up for such a long time with their comparatively low offer of approximately 8 million? I mean, even 12 million seems a little low.

 

I mean if Meche gets 50+ million, and Pettitte gets 16 million per, Lilly for 10 million per..can the Sox really expect that Boras will accept a lower offer for a pitcher that is acknowledged to be better than all of them by a long shot, due to the posting fee? What does he care what some team posted? He's supposed to care that some team posted $51 million? That's irrelevant to him, and it should be.

I mean, if I was Boras, I would be partying like crazy right now...

 

Try to put yourself in Boras's shoes for a second, and forget that you are Sox fans...if you were Matsuzaka's agent, what would you shoot for? I, for one, wouldn't let him sign for less than 15 per. I would let him walk, and negotiate with the Lions for his release. Can you imagine the bidding war between the Yanks, Mets, and Rangers for this guy? Remember, he gets paid according to what he signs the player for, not the posting fee. Think about that...if what I'm saying comes to pass [which I don't think it will], Boras would control the top two pitchers left [and 2 of the top 3 to begin with] in the market...with no restrictions.

 

What are your thoughts?

[TheKilo]

I have a question for the INTELLIGENT, COMMON SENSE fans of the Red Sox...please, if you are an idiot, don't reply. You know who you are, and so do I...so find some other post to discuss this particular point please...but here is the question.

 

Do you really believe that with the market explosion the way it is, that the Sox can realistically sign this guy and tie him up for such a long time with their comparatively low offer of approximately 8 million? I mean, even 12 million seems a little low.

 

I mean if Meche gets 50+ million, and Pettitte gets 16 million per, Lilly for 10 million per..can the Sox really expect that Boras will accept a lower offer for a pitcher that is acknowledged to be better than all of them by a long shot, due to the posting fee? What does he care what some team posted. That's irrelevant to him.

 

I mean, if I was Boras, I would be partying like crazy right now...

 

Try to put yourself in Boras's shoes for a second, and forget that you are Sox fans...if you were Matsuzaka's agent, what would you shoot for. I, for one, wouldn't let him sign for less than 15 per. I would let him walk, and negotiate with the Lions for his release. Can you imagine the bidding war between the Yanks, Mets, and Rangers for this guy? Think about that...if what I'm saying comes to pass [which I don't think it will], Boras would control the top two pitchers left [and 2 of the top 3 to begin with] in the market.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Honestly, I feel like it's time for Matsuzaka to cash in now. If he turns down the Sox's offer, he's going back to Japan and his $3 million/yr salary. If the Red Sox offer him $12 million/5 yrs, I think it's a deal he and Boras are going to accept.

 

It's not just about the money this time. Matsuzaka has been saying since high school how much he wants to pitch in the MLB. He has an oppurtunity to really make a name for Japanese baseball, especially in terms of pitching. Do you think he's going to throw that away because the Sox offered him $12 million/yr instead of $15 million/yr?

 

That would make Matsuzaka greedy in the eyes of the Japanese public, IMO, and would really cause his status to take a large hit. I think it's important for Matsuzaka to be a good citizen for Japan here in the MLB, and walking away from $3 million, especially when the salary he'd be getting is 4x what he's getting in Japan, would be disastrous for Matsuzaka.

 

The Red Sox will sign him. My guess is 4 years, $12-$14 mil a year, with an option for a fifth.

[Cityofchampions33]

That entire argument goes out the window when you look at the fact that Matsuzaka has NO experience in the Majors at all. I mean yes, everyone expects him to be at elats a number 3 starter, and better. However, as everyone in this league has seen, it is not garunteed at all. Matsuzaka can be great but also bomb like Irabu or others.

I can totally see Boras' argument that he wants a clause for less years under control of teh Red Sox, but asking for ace money and shorter years is very over the top. A totally fair deal would involve the clause but also a salary udner 15 mill. That way Matsuzaka can prove himself and then get an even bigger amount of money.

 

That's my Sox perspective.

 

From Boras' perspective, he's done a wonderful job hiding any signs that could give the Sox leverage in any way. Especially in Matsuzaka, if he is pressuring him to get it done and playing in the US this year. And until that happens he has no reason to lower his demands. This is what he's amde for, and this is what he will do, even if it may be very uncooperative in hammering out a deal (he ahsn't even given a counter offer).

[a700hitter]

Try to put yourself in Boras's shoes for a second' date=' and forget that you are Sox fans...if you were Matsuzaka's agent, what would you shoot for? I, for one, wouldn't let him sign for less than 15 per. I would let him walk, and negotiate with the Lions for his release.[/quote']This aint gonna happen. If he goes back to Seibu, he's stuck there for 2 years and that is in no one's interest. If he's stuck in Japan for two years at $3 million/year and he foregoes $11 million with the Red Sox for the first two years of a 5 year deal, he'd have to get $18 million/year over the first 3 years of his eventual US contract to make up for losing $18 million in the first two years. Some teams might be willing to pay him $18 million/year but not if they have to pay Seibu $30-50 million. So you can forget that happening. He will sign with the Red Sox. Boras' only leverage is with Seibu, because if he doesn't sign they get nothing. There's no leverage with the Red Sox because they would get back their $51 million, which they could put towards Zito or Clemens. I could see Seibu giving Matsuzaka something. It wouldn't necessarily have to be under the table. He might sign some sort of promotional contract with Seibu that would be independent of the deal. He'll be in Fenway. That is certain.

[example1]

I have a question for the INTELLIGENT, COMMON SENSE fans of the Red Sox...please, if you are an idiot, don't reply. You know who you are, and so do I...so find some other post to discuss this particular point please...but here is the question.

 

Do you really believe that with the market explosion the way it is, that the Sox can realistically sign this guy and tie him up for such a long time with their comparatively low offer of approximately 8 million? I mean, even 12 million seems a little low.

 

I mean if Meche gets 50+ million, and Pettitte gets 16 million per, Lilly for 10 million per..can the Sox really expect that Boras will accept a lower offer for a pitcher that is acknowledged to be better than all of them by a long shot, due to the posting fee? What does he care what some team posted? He's supposed to care that some team posted $51 million? That's irrelevant to him, and it should be.

I mean, if I was Boras, I would be partying like crazy right now...

 

Try to put yourself in Boras's shoes for a second, and forget that you are Sox fans...if you were Matsuzaka's agent, what would you shoot for? I, for one, wouldn't let him sign for less than 15 per. I would let him walk, and negotiate with the Lions for his release. Can you imagine the bidding war between the Yanks, Mets, and Rangers for this guy? Remember, he gets paid according to what he signs the player for, not the posting fee. Think about that...if what I'm saying comes to pass [which I don't think it will], Boras would control the top two pitchers left [and 2 of the top 3 to begin with] in the market...with no restrictions.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

 

You're the only person who seems to be discussing this "purchase Matsuzaka's contract" idea, as if its realistic. I don't think it is.

 

If I were Matsuzaka's agent what would I shoot for? I would make sure that my player was in the majors next year with a realistic possibility that he will be a FA within 5 years or less. I would make sure that he makes considerably more than he did last year. I would also make sure that Seibu gets their money.

 

Again, Matsuzaka's chances of getting hurt are too high to pass up the guaranteed 60 million or so that I am betting the sox will offer. SIXTY MILLION dollars. If you turn that down and you're Boras, you're an ass.

 

I imagine a 5 year, 12m dollar deal is more than fair.

 

You are harping on this 8 million dollar offer and I think that's not a realistic number (I know its the number that was 'reported') just like it was 'reported' that the Yankees won the bidding and the sox won with a 45 m bid. It's just not true.

 

The Sox and Boras have been busy doing things other than matsuzaka discussions. The Sox signed JD Drew and Lugo and still seek a closer. They haven't been in constant failed discussions with matsuzaka. Those discussions will START now.

[Gom]

It's not just about the money this time. Matsuzaka has been saying since high school how much he wants to pitch in the MLB.

 

Then why sign Boras as your agent if it's not about the money? I respectfully disagree here.

 

I mean yes' date=' everyone expects him to be at elats a number 3 starter, and better. However, as everyone in this league has seen, it is not garunteed at all. Matsuzaka can be great but also bomb like Irabu or others. [/quote']

 

Good post...but what the hell is "elats"? Is that supposed to be least? Dude, did you steal my bottle of Jack Daniels? :thumbsup:

 

Umm...a700...did you forget to post something...thanks for just quoting me! I feel so loved!

 

ROFL LMAO!

[schillingouttheks]

Then why sign Boras as your agent if it's not about the money? I respectfully disagree here.

 

 

 

Good post...but what the hell is "elats"? Is that supposed to be least? Dude, did you steal my bottle of Jack Daniels? :thumbsup:

 

Umm...a700...did you forget to post something...thanks for just quoting me! I feel so loved!

 

ROFL LMAO!

 

You're rolling on the floor laughing, laughing your ass off? Hmmm.... haha sorry

 

He signed Boras as his agent because while he wants to get paid well, he just has the reputation of getting his clients the best deals. It's simple. And Matsuzaka WILL get the best deal possible, but under different circumstances than normal.

[TheKilo]

Then why sign Boras as your agent if it's not about the money? I respectfully disagree here.

 

 

 

Good post...but what the hell is "elats"? Is that supposed to be least? Dude, did you steal my bottle of Jack Daniels? :thumbsup:

 

Umm...a700...did you forget to post something...thanks for just quoting me! I feel so loved!

 

ROFL LMAO!

 

I think we can all agree that Boras is the best agent out there. I didn't say it wasn;t about the money, it's just not the entire equation.

 

Boras will get Matsuzaka what he deserves, or at least he's the one who will have the best chance of doing so. Matsuzaka knows this. But Matsuzaka also knows what he wants, and that's to pitch in the MLB. if the Sox offer him 5 yrs at $12 mil per, you think he'll turn that down?

[Gom]

You're the only person who seems to be discussing this "purchase Matsuzaka's contract" idea' date=' as if its realistic. I don't think it is. [/quote']

 

I'm not making it up. It's been printed a lot here in New York. I've linked to it before, and expect Boras to threaten it some more as the time gets short. Do I think he will sign? Yes. It becomes more of a real possibility he will negotiate a settlement as the time gets shorter.

I would also make sure that Seibu gets their money.

Now THAT is funny.

I imagine a 5 year, 12m dollar deal is more than fair.[/Quote]

I agree..but I don't think it will happen.

They haven't been in constant failed discussions with matsuzaka. Those discussions will START now.

Agreed.

[riverside sluggers]

I think we can all agree that Boras is the best agent out there. I didn't say it wasn;t about the money, it's just not the entire equation.

 

Boras will get Matsuzaka what he deserves, or at least he's the one who will have the best chance of doing so. Matsuzaka knows this. But Matsuzaka also knows what he wants, and that's to pitch in the MLB. if the Sox offer him 5 yrs at $12 mil per, you think he'll turn that down?

 

Something funny to think about, just who wrote the article of how Boras can simply buy D-Mat out from his team? Well that just so happened to be a beat writer from... drumroll please, New York shocker

[Gom]

You're rolling on the floor laughing, laughing your ass off? Hmmm.... haha sorry

 

He signed Boras as his agent because while he wants to get paid well, he just has the reputation of getting his clients the best deals. It's simple. And Matsuzaka WILL get the best deal possible, but under different circumstances than normal.

 

I'm laughing because a700 quoted my text and didn't write anything..go back and look...before he corrects it, lol.

[schillingouttheks]

I'm laughing because a700 quoted my text and didn't write anything..go back and look...before he corrects it' date=' lol.[/quote']

 

No, no, I understood why you did, I was just pointing out that instead of typing ROFLMAO, you typed ROFL LMAO, and there was one too many L's. Hahah I have too much time on my hands :dunno:

[Gom]

No' date=' no, I understood why you did, I was just pointing out that instead of typing ROFLMAO, you typed ROFL LMAO, and there was one too many L's. Hahah I have too much time on my hands :dunno:[/quote']

 

That's because I laughed again when I hit the floor...LMAO!

[a700hitter]

I'm laughing because a700 quoted my text and didn't write anything..go back and look...before he corrects it' date=' lol.[/quote']You must be really be into the bottle if you find an erroneous click so funny. My post is corrected. Your thoughts? Sorry about that. I meant to ask for your reaction?

[example1]

I'm not making it up. It's been printed a lot here in New York. I've linked to it before' date=' and expect Boras to threaten it some more as the time gets short. Do I think he will sign? Yes. It becomes more of a real possibility he will negotiate a settlement as the time gets shorter.[/quote']

 

That's what people have been saying all along. The only "printing" of that rumor I've seen (and again, please link me if I'm wrong) has been from someone quoting a board much like this one, in which a yankee fan suggested "wouldn't it be cool if Boras bought out the Lions and then negotiated with the Yankees for more money", and the author said "this is how crazy the rumor mill has gotten" or something. I haven't seen a single substantial source say that and as far as I know agents can't "own" players or purchase them. Again, if there is more significant' talk about this please let me know.

 

I agree..but I don't think it will happen.

 

I do. I think that 12 x 5 is both reasonable and respectful. 12m is a lot of money and it is what the elite players make. If the sox put 12m on the table and say "that's it, 5 x 12, our final offer with the following incentives" then Matsuzaka would be seen as a jerk for turning it down, particularly in Japan where he would have to return and, alas, watch as his contract is not purchased by Boras and he does not come to the united states, he only returns to Seibu complaining that he didn't get an extra 6 million over 5 years while his team lements the 51.1 they could have had.

[example1]

This aint gonna happen. If he goes back to Seibu' date=' he's stuck there for 2 years and that is in no one's interest. If he's stuck in Japan for two years at $3 million/year and he foregoes $11 million with the Red Sox for the first two years of a 5 year deal, he'd have to get $18 million/year over the first 3 years of his eventual US contract to make up for losing $18 million in the first two years. Some teams might be willing to pay him $18 million/year but not if they have to pay Seibu $30-50 million. So you can forget that happening. He will sign with the Red Sox. Boras' only leverage is with Seibu, because if he doesn't sign they get nothing. There's no leverage with the Red Sox because they would get back their $51 million, which they could put towards Zito or Clemens. I could see Seibu giving Matsuzaka something. It wouldn't necessarily have to be under the table. He might sign some sort of promotional contract with Seibu that would be independent of the deal. He'll be in Fenway. That is certain.[/quote']

 

That's a much better thought out post than your "quote, submit reply" post was for a few minutes. Hopefully Gom has cleaned the urine out of his superman pull-ups and gotten up off the floor so he can reply to your cogent point that Matsuzaka would need an AAV of 18 million/year with NO MLB experience to make up for having missed 2 MLB seasons.

 

 

Gom, I know you don't always wear pull-ups. Just when you're hitting the bottle and prone to explosive urinary laughter.

[seabeachfred]

This aint gonna happen. If he goes back to Seibu' date=' he's stuck there for 2 years and that is in no one's interest. If he's stuck in Japan for two years at $3 million/year and he foregoes $11 million with the Red Sox for the first two years of a 5 year deal, he'd have to get $18 million/year over the first 3 years of his eventual US contract to make up for losing $18 million in the first two years. Some teams might be willing to pay him $18 million/year but not if they have to pay Seibu $30-50 million. So you can forget that happening. He will sign with the Red Sox. Boras' only leverage is with Seibu, because if he doesn't sign they get nothing. There's no leverage with the Red Sox because they would get back their $51 million, which they could put towards Zito or Clemens. I could see Seibu giving Matsuzaka something. It wouldn't necessarily have to be under the table. He might sign some sort of promotional contract with Seibu that would be independent of the deal. He'll be in Fenway. That is certain.[/quote']

 

Here's something that seems off the wall but I'll throw it out anyway. If the Red Sox don't sign Matsu could they still let the Japanese hold the money so they keep control of any signing the pitcher does? Someone told me the Red Sox could do this.

[TheKilo]

Here's something that seems off the wall but I'll throw it out anyway. If the Red Sox don't sign Matsu could they still let the Japanese hold the money so they keep control of any signing the pitcher does? Someone told me the Red Sox could do this.

 

The way I understand it is if the Sox don't sign him, the $51 mil comes back to them.

[a700hitter]

Here's something that seems off the wall but I'll throw it out anyway. If the Red Sox don't sign Matsu could they still let the Japanese hold the money so they keep control of any signing the pitcher does? Someone told me the Red Sox could do this.

That is really out of left field Fred. That's a lot of money to let someone else hold at no interest. Thye Red Sox would want to put this money to work for them.