Off-season Hot Stove Thread

[jacksonianmarch]

the pirates are stupid if they do that. Young pitching is gold and right now they may have the foundation for quite a good rotation in the future. Duke, Gorzelanny, Maholm, Snell, Burnett/Bullington. They should leave it alone and see if they can sign some offense or develop it.

[jacksonianmarch]

now that the price for power his 16.5 mil a season, how much will Drew get? They both have similar career averages. Lee has the power and the RBI. Drew is the lefty, has more speed and is a much better fielder. Does this mean that Drew's price tag just reached 15 mil a season?

[example1]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/25/progress_made_in_drew_talks/

 

The sox are still going strongly after Drew and a deal could happen in a few days, says the globe. We'll see...

[BSN07]

Drew will probably end up in BOS, not for cheap tho. And I don't think he its 30 HR playing half his games in Fenway. Look for more like 20, maybe 25, but he will have to play all season long and i'm pretty sure he hasn't been able to pull that off yet. Drew is one of the most talented players in the game. His flimsy attitude is what kills him everywhere he goes. Hopefully it will change or we will have a less talented "Manny" on our hands.

 

Speaking of Manny. I've been on the fence about trading him, but with the market right now we might beable to get the best deal we are ever gonna get. Wit Lee siging in Houston, look for Manny talk with Texas to heat up. Rumors will be flying all over now that all the big names are signed besides Drew.

[BSN07]

6 years, $ 100 million..... For a guy with no particular skill in the OF, and will eat his way to being a DH if he's not chained from the fridge? Thats a big liability in LF for 6 years. Houston will now have to live with the fact there biggest contract in franchise history belongs to "el caballo":dunno: Now that's funny:thumbsup:

 

This years market is going to be one of the craziest of all time. It puts 2001 to absolute shame. And with actual quality players becoming FA in 07' I can't see it getting any better. By the end of 08, Johan Santanna is going to get a bigger deal the Arod."

 

 

I can see it now, "Santanna signs with(NYY,BOS,NYM,MINN any team with money to spend) for 7 years 200 million dollars".

[BSN07]

Progress made in Drew talks

Length of deal is seen as one possible hurdle

By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff | November 25, 2006

 

Don't be deceived by the silence. The Red Sox are quietly but aggressively trying to close a deal for outfielder J.D. Drew, who opted out of the last three years and $33 million of his contract with the Los Angeles Dodgers to become a free agent.

 

 

Boston.com

Sign up for: Globe Headlines e-mail | Breaking News Alerts There are hurdles to be jumped, but progress is being made in talks between Sox general manager Theo Epstein and Drew's agent, Scott Boras, and an agreement appears within reach. Given the speed with which other free agent outfielders have signed -- Alfonso Soriano, Gary Matthews Jr., Juan Pierre, Jim Edmonds, Moises Alou, Frank Catalanotto, Carlos Lee have all struck deals, and the winter meetings are still nine days away -- Drew and the Sox may be within a few days of coming to terms

 

Wow, I really thought there was no chance of Drew coming to BOS after all the sigings and prices. But maybe...

[jacksonianmarch]

yet still the lethal flaw of RSN is still unaddressed. Can drew close?

[BSN07]

No, but when theres no one available thats worth any money, you might as well stockpile offense LOL. I agree we have to do something with the bullpen quick.

 

BTW, does anyone know which players are arbitration eligable? That be something nice to see, so maybe we have a small idea who else might be becoming FA.

[ORS]

yet still the lethal flaw of RSN is still unaddressed. Can drew close?

Can Zaun start?

 

What I'm saying is, I love how you are so content with the notion that it's OK for Cashman to be patient and think something is "brewing" in regards to the Yankees need for SP, but the Sox better act now for a closer. The level of hypocrisy you display here is outright comical.

[jacksonianmarch]

Can Zaun start?

 

What I'm saying is, I love how you are so content with the notion that it's OK for Cashman to be patient and think something is "brewing" in regards to the Yankees need for SP, but the Sox better act now for a closer. The level of hypocrisy you display here is outright comical.

 

ORS, do I truly need to point everything out to you one thing at a time? The SP market has not started forming yet as only one C level SP signed (Williams). That means that options are still available. It is about supply. Currently, every option is on the table. If the SP market started drying up and Cashman still hadnt nabbed one SP, then I'd be all over him. Until then, I will sit back and wait for the show to begin. Meanwhile the third (and likely last) reliable bullpen arm is about to sign in SF leaving the sox with Gagne as their best option (and he is no sure thing anymore).

[ORS]

Oh, but wait. You are even content if the Yankees don't get a big name FA, as you are confident that Cashman can Jedi mind-trick someone into trading them a top-flight young starter. Don't act like you haven't put out this notion.

 

No, you don't need to point s*** out. I'm well aware of the different player markets. I'm also aware that you talk out of both sides of your mouth depending on what team you are talking about. That type of s*** is petty, weak, and pathetic. Have an opinion, but be consistent.

[BSN07]

Zoinks yo:o

[jacksonianmarch]

ORS, how am I talking out of both sides of my mouth? Both teams came in with needs, but anyone with half a brain could see that he sox needs were much greater. They finished 3rd for the first time in a long time and came in with a lot of holes. One was filled, in the rotation, that spells a need. But their biggest need was in the bullpen, especially since the sox are taking their #1 reliever and converting him to starter. That takes the sox bullpen ERA of 4.51 from last yr (which was 21st in MLB ) to an era of 5.07 which would have been good for 3rd worst in the major leagues behind only Baltimore and KC. And thus far they have done ZERO to address it while the best right handed and left handed options have already been removed and now it seems that the most versatile reliever is on his way to SF. THAT is my point. Dont try to turn this into something else, and dont channel your anger at the sox in my direction. You want to see petty, take a look at some of your pathetic rantings in a fight ith Gom. You didnt need to keep it going yet you did and you lost a lot of respect in my book because of it. THAT was petty.

 

Getting back on track and leaving as much personal s*** off as possible, look at need and market. The Yankees have less holes. They need a backup catcher, which in yankee land is not a crucial position because there is no certain knuckleballer that is hard to catch on their staff. They also need a right handed 1b. Hillenbrand is still available. Phillips could fit the bill, etc. The yankees managed to have the highest scoring offense in the majors last yr with only 2 months of Abreu, Matsui and Sheffield each. They should get entire seasons out of Abreu and Matsui this yr, so they can carry one pathetic bat if need be. With the addition of Britton and the full season in NY for Bruney, the pen is loaded with fireballers in front of Mo. Britton, Bruney, Proctor, Myers, Farnsworth, Rivera. Plus JB Cox is sitting in the minors as well as guys like TJ Beam , Jeff Karstens and Darrell Rasner who could be long men. BP is not a yankee need. Their most obvious and glaring need is SP. They have their ace in Wang returning. Mussina is also returning, but he is more like a #3 pitcher. Johnson will return, but after back surgery and a bad season at 43 he can only be counted on as a 4/5. That leaves the 2 slot and the 4/5 slot open. Pavano is an option who could fit the 4/5 spot, but if they are about to sink a spot on Pavano/Rasner/Karstens out of ST, then they better fill that 2 hole with someone better than Lilly. There are players with #2 type stuff that hasnt matched performance. Guys like Padilla, Meche, etc. There is a solid #2 on the market in Zito, although his numbers seem more lucky than good. Fact is, the market is tough, but when you remove a pen killer like Wright from your rotation, then all you really need to do to make your team better is to add a guy who will eat innings for you. Meche could do that, Lilly can't, Padilla might, Zito will. Also, there is the fact that the yankees have 3 of their top 10 prospects in AAA. One of which has already had success in AAA. Where will they go if one of more dominate to start out the spring? There are plenty of options, but I have stood pat in saying the yankees need ONE starting pitcher. Two would block the progression of Hughes and Sanchez and would gum up the works with Pavano. That ONE needs to be damn good though, and dipping into a substandard market could yield a Pavano/Clement-esque debachle all over again.

 

So no more double talk as you call it. The starting pitching market has not even started while the relief market is nearing the finish. Cashman still has time. Theo needs bullpen and the market is drying up. He cannot afford to wait. See if you can wrap your mind around that one.

[ORS]

Dont try to turn this into something else' date=' and dont channel your anger at the sox in my direction. You want to see petty, take a look at some of your pathetic rantings in a fight ith Gom. You didnt need to keep it going yet you did and you lost a lot of respect in my book because of it. THAT was petty.[/quote']

I'm not frustrated with the FO. Your s***** little comment is what's frustrating. If the Sox get Drew*, regardless of their other needs, they get better. It's not surprising that when someone posts some potential good news for the Sox, you were right there to try and bring it down - and it wasn't even on topic, the need for a closer has nothing to do with JD Drew. Pretty transparent.

 

I lost your respect for putting Gom in his place? And, that is what I did. That kid has done nothing but insult the Sox and Sox fanbase since post #1. Act like a prick, get treated like a prick. Got news for you, Jacko. Don't care. Given your petty behavior here, it's no loss to me.

 

So no more double talk as you call it. The starting pitching market has not even started while the relief market is nearing the finish. Cashman still has time. Theo needs bullpen and the market is drying up. He cannot afford to wait. See if you can wrap your mind around that one.

It's OK, Theo has some pieces that other teams need and he'll get something done.[/jacksonian]

 

See how easy that is?

 

*It wasn't even definite good news for the Sox you needed to try and s*** on.

[jacksonianmarch]

I'm not frustrated with the FO. Your s***** little comment is what's frustrating. If the Sox get Drew*, regardless of their other needs, they get better. It's not surprising that when someone posts some potential good news for the Sox, you were right there to try and bring it down - and it wasn't even on topic, the need for a closer has nothing to do with JD Drew. Pretty transparent.

 

I lost your respect for putting Gom in his place? And, that is what I did. That kid has done nothing but insult the Sox and Sox fanbase since post #1. Act like a prick, get treated like a prick. Got news for you, Jacko. Don't care. Given your petty behavior here, it's no loss to me.

 

[/i]

It's OK, Theo has some pieces that other teams need and he'll get something done.[/jacksonian]

 

See how easy that is?

 

*It wasn't even definite good news for the Sox you needed to try and s*** on.

 

yet you still have not even commented on the substance of my post.

[a700hitter]

If Matuszaka signs for 4+ years, Jacksonian first reaction will be that it's too long for an unknown quantity, and that Japanese pitchers don't do as well here. ...or maybe he'll respond to the signing by asking if he can close. He'll say this even though we've had to read post after post about how Theo is going to get screwed by Borass by only agreeing to a 3 year deal.

 

Jacksonian, I think we know the make up of our roster on these boards. It will not be news tomorrow, if we sign Matsuzaka and Drew, but don't have a closer. It'll be news that we have Drew and Matsuzaka, filling two of the team's biggest needs. Theo knows that we need a closer. I don't think he'll try bullpen by committee after getting burned by that in 2003. I am not concerned about a closer as I am sure that he will get one. I am more concerned about the lack of availability of other quality arm for the back of the bullpen.

[a700hitter]

With the addition of Britton and the full season in NY for Bruney' date=' the pen is loaded with fireballers in front of Mo. Britton, Bruney, Proctor, Myers, Farnsworth, Rivera. Plus JB Cox is sitting in the minors as well as guys like TJ Beam , Jeff Karstens and Darrell Rasner who could be long men. BP is not a yankee need.[/quote']You've got Mo who is an injury ???, Farnsworth-- a choke a minute, and Proctor who looked good last year. If they decide to move Proctor to the starting rotation, your bullpen will be as thin as a supermodel. You can't be serious about depending on an Arizona waiver like Bruney and Fatty McBritton from the Orioles. There's a reason you got one guy for nothing and the other one for a damaged starter. The reason is they stink. Maybe the 5+ ERA Tanyon Sturtze can make a comeback.,

 

Their most obvious and glaring need is SP. They have their ace in Wang returning. Mussina is also returning' date=' but he is more like a #3 pitcher. Johnson will return, but after back surgery and a bad season at 43 he can only be counted on as a 4/5. That leaves the 2 slot and the 4/5 slot open. Pavano is an option who could fit the 4/5 spot, but if they are about to sink a spot on Pavano/Rasner/Karstens out of ST, then they better fill that 2 hole with someone better than Lilly. There are players with #2 type stuff that hasnt matched performance. Guys like Padilla, Meche, etc. There is a solid #2 on the market in Zito, although his numbers seem more lucky than good. Fact is, the market is tough, but when you remove a pen killer like Wright from your rotation, then all you really need to do to make your team better is to add a guy who will eat innings for you. Meche could do that, Lilly can't, Padilla might, Zito will. Also, there is the fact that the yankees have 3 of their top 10 prospects in AAA. .[/quote']The biggest FA is off the table with Matsuzaka. After Zito and Schmidt, it's a bucket of piss available out there. Most of the guys available are not even good innings eaters.

[seabeachfred]

now that the price for power his 16.5 mil a season' date=' how much will Drew get? They both have similar career averages. Lee has the power and the RBI. Drew is the lefty, has more speed and is a much better fielder. Does this mean that Drew's price tag just reached 15 mil a season?[/quote']

 

The answer to that question is YES and Theo guaranteed that by not understanding the dynamics of free agent signings---ONCE AGAIN!!!! It is all very simple and we all know it. Once the first players signs for more than most think he's worth, the price shoots up and keeps shooting up as other players sign for more than they were originally worth. Drew will probably get $15 million or we'll be stuck with Pena and Hinske in RF next season, a sure recipe for disaster on both the defensive and offensive end.

[seabeachfred]

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2006/11/25/progress_made_in_drew_talks/

 

The sox are still going strongly after Drew and a deal could happen in a few days, says the globe. We'll see...

 

I also post on the Dirt Dogs and I appreciate the Globe putting out a Red Sox website like that, but pardon me if I think they're full of s*** on this one. I have been hearing Drew is ready to be signed "any day now" for close to two weeks and NOTHING. Until his name is on the dotted line, we have pre-paid about a dozen losses for next season with Hinske and Pena in RF and Cora at shortstop.

[ORS]

yet you still have not even commented on the substance of my post.

It didn't warrant a comment. None of it was false, yet none of it did anything to justify your double standard. Despite all the Padilla's of the world, there were 3 elite pitchers available this year. The Yanks lost out on Matsuzaka and Schmidt appears to be destined to stay out west. Lemme guess, Cashman is brilliant for not jumping the gun and going after Zito? Thought so.

 

All the while, you did not - nor cannot - deny that my post about your motives was dead on.

[jacksonianmarch]

If Matuszaka signs for 4+ years, Jacksonian first reaction will be that it's too long for an unknown quantity, and that Japanese pitchers don't do as well here. ...or maybe he'll respond to the signing by asking if he can close. He'll say this even though we've had to read post after post about how Theo is going to get screwed by Borass by only agreeing to a 3 year deal.

 

Jacksonian, I think we know the make up of our roster on these boards. It will not be news tomorrow, if we sign Matsuzaka and Drew, but don't have a closer. It'll be news that we have Drew and Matsuzaka, filling two of the team's biggest needs. Theo knows that we need a closer. I don't think he'll try bullpen by committee after getting burned by that in 2003. I am not concerned about a closer as I am sure that he will get one. I am more concerned about the lack of availability of other quality arm for the back of the bullpen.

 

I will go on record as saying that if the sox can nab matsuzaka for more than 3 yrs that they will have done a fabulous job. A 26 yr old with ace pedigree is hard to come by and if they lock him up for 5-6 yrs, they will be very happy and theo should be lauded.

[jacksonianmarch]

You've got Mo who is an injury ???, Farnsworth-- a choke a minute, and Proctor who looked good last year. If they decide to move Proctor to the starting rotation, your bullpen will be as thin as a supermodel. You can't be serious about depending on an Arizona waiver like Bruney and Fatty McBritton from the Orioles. There's a reason you got one guy for nothing and the other one for a damaged starter. The reason is they stink. Maybe the 5+ ERA Tanyon Sturtze can make a comeback.,

 

The biggest FA is off the table with Matsuzaka. After Zito and Schmidt, it's a bucket of piss available out there. Most of the guys available are not even good innings eaters.

 

Matsuzaka is a different kind of FA. It isnt like Cashman knew what was on the table and passed, he had no idea how much the other teams were bidding. He technically didnt pass on Matsuzaka because he did not know the price tag. That is not the same for Zito or Schmidt or Pettitte, who I think would be the best yankee solution. If those guys sign elsewhere, then they either wanted no part of NY or Cash passed.

[jacksonianmarch]

Also, ORS, giving yourself credit for being totally off base is something you should be doing. You do not know my motives just like you do not know me. Let's leave it at that. My motives are to point out what is happening, whether you want to hear it or not. For the yankees, I think they may be on the verge of winging it in the rotation department for hopes of a better FA crop next yr or for the hopes that their farm will develop a front line starter. Yankee fans should worry if one really wants the yankees to win next yr, because absent a front line starter, they really dont have a chance (unless Randy grows a new back and finds a fountain of youth and if carl grows his balls back).

 

For sox fans, they should be worried about the achilles heel that comes up every single yr for them. Instability in the pen. It is obvious that theo is going for it this yr and without a bullpen (and now that the options are dwindling) they dont have a chance. You can trot out any RF you want, Daisuke can be the next best thing since ramen noodles came over the pond, but without a pen, sox fans will be watching october baseball.

[jacksonianmarch]

You've got Mo who is an injury ???, Farnsworth-- a choke a minute, and Proctor who looked good last year. If they decide to move Proctor to the starting rotation, your bullpen will be as thin as a supermodel. You can't be serious about depending on an Arizona waiver like Bruney and Fatty McBritton from the Orioles. There's a reason you got one guy for nothing and the other one for a damaged starter. The reason is they stink. Maybe the 5+ ERA Tanyon Sturtze can make a comeback.,

 

The biggest FA is off the table with Matsuzaka. After Zito and Schmidt, it's a bucket of piss available out there. Most of the guys available are not even good innings eaters.

 

Mo finished the season healthy and made an appearance in the postseason. Bruney threw 30 innings last yr and was dominant with 1+ era. And since when does a 3.5 era in the ALE suck for a rookie? I think you are skewing things a bit.

[ORS]

Also' date=' ORS, giving yourself credit for being totally off base is something you should be doing. You do not know my motives just like you do not know me. Let's leave it at that. My motives are to point out what is happening, whether you want to hear it or not. [/quote']

I don't need to know you to know your motives. Your actions speak volumes. Your comment was an example of pissing in the punchbowl. Getting Drew makes the Sox better. Instead of staying on topic and admitting that or even better, saying nothing, you just moved on to the next thing to try kill any good mood that brought Sox fans. It's not about whether or not I want to hear it, it's about how transparent you are for doing it.

 

For sox fans, they should be worried about the achilles heel that comes up every single yr for them. Instability in the pen. It is obvious that theo is going for it this yr and without a bullpen (and now that the options are dwindling) they dont have a chance. You can trot out any RF you want, Daisuke can be the next best thing since ramen noodles came over the pond, but without a pen, sox fans will be watching october baseball.

We know about the needs in the pen, and nobody is denying it needs improving. However, it wasn't a topic that was brought up until you felt threatened by the prospect of the Sox improving their lineup.

 

Here's a thought, the arbitration deadline hasn't passed yet. Is it possible, just a little, that they are waiting to see what kind of compensation is invovled with the players they target? Given the annual variation for RP (the list of consistently good RP doesn't get beyond my ten fingers), there are still plenty of capable arms to fill the, what - 2 open spots, in the Sox pen, and the quality of that pen will be determined by how many of them have a good year. The pen was very good in '04 (looks like it isn't every year), but with the same personnel it sucked in '05. And, the power bats are already off the market. I expect one of WMP or Manny to get traded if they get Drew.

[example1]

The sox are so far from finishing their team, both player wise and time wise. They won't have Cora starting at SS and they won't have MDC as their relief ace. Let's just calm down a little bit and not respond to provocation from Yankee fans on this board.

 

Okay... that's out of the way. I was thinking about this today, with the FA market as it is currently for offense, is there any chance the Sox make ANOTHER move for a SP like Schmidt to load up their rotation and then trade from that position of depth?

[jacksonianmarch]

I expect one of WMP or Manny to get traded if they get Drew.

 

I agree with that statement.

[ORS]

Okay... that's out of the way. I was thinking about this today, with the FA market as it is currently for offense, is there any chance the Sox make ANOTHER move for a SP like Schmidt to load up their rotation and then trade from that position of depth?

I don't think so. One, Schmidt seems determined to stay on the west coast. Two, who would they trade? Beckett? Seems like buying high and selling low. Schilling? Pretty sure there's a NTC in there. Wake? Hard to find a cheaper innings eater than him. Papelbon? Don't see it happening.

[jacksonianmarch]

The sox are so far from finishing their team, both player wise and time wise. They won't have Cora starting at SS and they won't have MDC as their relief ace. Let's just calm down a little bit and not respond to provocation from Yankee fans on this board.

 

Okay... that's out of the way. I was thinking about this today, with the FA market as it is currently for offense, is there any chance the Sox make ANOTHER move for a SP like Schmidt to load up their rotation and then trade from that position of depth?

 

Not a chance in the world that a player would sign in BOS without a spot already being secured.

[example1]

I don't think so. One' date=' Schmidt seems determined to stay on the west coast. Two, who would they trade? Beckett? Seems like buying high and selling low. Schilling? Pretty sure there's a NTC in there. Wake? Hard to find a cheaper innings eater than him. Papelbon? Don't see it happening.[/quote']

 

It would still open up a position of strength for dealing players like Bard, Bowden, Buchholz or even a guy like Masterson. That's one of the huge things about landing a guy like Matsuzaka, his young age would allow you to deal a young pitcher or two and then have two drafts more to resolidify your minor-league pitching talent.

 

In general I don't think they'll go after a guy like Schmidt either, but it would be an outside the box move, as SP is ALWAYS highly coveted and valuable.