Breaking News: Ortiz to return to Boston

[ORS]

True, alot of these stats arent perfect even OPS isnt THAT perfect. I wasnt really all cought up that well on WPA. Its intresting reading some of the info on that site. But does WPA take into account the strength of the lineup the hitter hits in? I dont have to look at the stats to know Victor Martinez cant sniff Manny. I do think that in these clutch situation Manny does have an affect on the way the pitcher attacks Ortiz.

No stat takes that into account because it would be close to impossible to isolate and quantify it.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

No stat takes that into account because it would be close to impossible to isolate and quantify it.

Thats pretty much my point. Dont you think Hafner's WPA would be higher if he had Manny hitting behind him as opposed to Victor Martinez? I saw eariler this year the former closer for the Guardians (I forgot his first name) Carmona fall behind Ortiz 2-0 in the count. I believe a base was open. Dont you think Manny had influence on the fastball Ortiz got? Its hard to have a definative yes or no but you have to figure overall Hafner would see better pitchers to hit with Manny behind him as opposed to Victor Martinez.

[ORS]

Thats pretty much my point. Dont you think Hafner's WPA would be higher if he had Manny hitting behind him as opposed to Victor Martinez? I saw eariler this year the former closer for the Guardians (I forgot his first name) Carmona fall behind Ortiz 2-0 in the count. I believe a base was open. Dont you think Manny had influence on the fastball Ortiz got? Its hard to have a definative yes or no but you have to figure overall Hafner would see better pitchers to hit with Manny behind him as opposed to Victor Martinez.

But, at the same time, you have to figure Hafner would see better pitches because Ortiz has been so big late in games over the last couple of years. It's all speculative, but I don't tend to put much credence into the "protection" of the player hitting behind someone. Unless they are situationally IBB'ing someone, pitchers are trying to get hitters out.

 

As for the Carmona situation, he didn't get a cookie on 2-0. That ball was pegged low and away, so he was still being careful despite Manny.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

But, at the same time, you have to figure Hafner would see better pitches because Ortiz has been so big late in games over the last couple of years. It's all speculative, but I don't tend to put much credence into the "protection" of the player hitting behind someone. Unless they are situationally IBB'ing someone, pitchers are trying to get hitters out.

 

As for the Carmona situation, he didn't get a cookie on 2-0. That ball was pegged low and away, so he was still being careful despite Manny.

Clearly it is speculative because there is no way to determine how a hitter would do with a certain hitter behind him. There is no concrete evidence however you see a situation where a pitcher tried to let a hitter get himself out. A pitcher instead of throwing a 2-0 fastball he will throw a 2-0 breaking ball. Again there is no way to really analyze that.

 

Well you could see the Carmona thing coming. Ortiz is a great low ball hitter and because he stands right on top of the plate he gets great plate coverage plus in a 2-0 count you look fastball. Maybe if you insert Ortiz into todays lineup with Kevin Youkilis behind him Ortiz gets a 2-0 breaking ball. But again as you said its speculation.

 

We might have gotten a little to deep into this. Now we are breaking down situational pitching etc.