Breaking News: Ortiz to return to Boston

[He Hate Me]

Take him out of that lineup and you are looking at Konerko and Thome....thats a good 3-4 punch but Jermaine Dye is the reason the offense has taken another step this season. The pitching hasn't been there all year for that team and they had to rely on offense. He has been the leader of the offense and the difference maker. Without him I can't say they would be fighting for a wildcard spot. They would be the same team as last season without the same pitching.

 

I don't see how you can say Dye is the reason they stepped it up this year when Thome is the new guy.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

First of all kinow what your talking about please....Ichiro won the MVP and ROY in 2001.

 

 

What do you mean who gives a s***? Just because you dont understand the stat it doesnt mean you disregard it. I dont care if the Red Sox are a better team then the Guardians. They both have 1 thing in common. They will home playing golf in October so I dont want to hear this BS about the Red Sox being a better team. Congrats to you guys, instead of missing the playoffs by 20 games Ortiz helped you guys miss it by 10.

 

BTW speaking on the Yankees, they were able to surive with A-Rod having his worst season ever because they have had players like Damon and Jeter have their best seasons and Giambi having one of his best seasons ever. They have picked up the slack for him. If you put a slumping A-Rod on LAST years team they dont sniff the playoffs.

 

I'm aware of the stat you s***. The fact still remains....you need a player to come through and win the game. Are you taking Derek Jeter, Travis Hafner, Vlad Guerrero, David Ortiz, A-Rod, Ichiro....whoever.....you are taking David Ortiz. Most Valuable Player.

 

I'm a firm believer that a teams record has nothing to do with a player being named MVP. There are too many factors in baseball and a player can only take on so much. As a DH he has been a bigger difference maker than anyone in baseball.

 

Thats great that the Yanks were able to pick up the slack and like you said...Damon, Jeter, Giambi....yeah they are all involved...great team effort you cant take that away from them. Deffinitly a team effort though....a team effort contributed by all those other players making millions and millions of dollars.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I'm aware of the stat you s***. The fact still remains....you need a player to come through and win the game. Are you taking Derek Jeter, Travis Hafner, Vlad Guerrero, David Ortiz, A-Rod, Ichiro....whoever.....you are taking David Ortiz. Most Valuable Player.

 

I'm a firm believer that a teams record has nothing to do with a player being named MVP. There are too many factors in baseball and a player can only take on so much. As a DH he has been a bigger difference maker than anyone in baseball.

 

Thats great that the Yanks were able to pick up the slack and like you said...Damon, Jeter, Giambi....yeah they are all involved...great team effort you cant take that away from them. Deffinitly a team effort though....a team effort contributed by all those other players making millions and millions of dollars.

There are multiple definitions of "MVP". Like I said in a previous post if your looking for the best player its clearly Travis Hafner, if you looking for a player that has contributed the most to a WINNING team effort(playoffs)have multiple choice. IMO its between Mauer and Jeter because of the # they have put up at the position they play. Dye is doing what a great COF should do. Thats why hes 3rd in my book.

 

The Red Sox started to tank it prior to Ortiz's heart problems. I actually said in a previous post if the Red Sox made the playoffs then Ortiz should get the MVP., I have not only said it in this thread but I have said it in others when the topic came up.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

There are multiple definitions of "MVP". Like I said in a previous post if your looking for the best player its clearly Travis Hafner, if you looking for a player that has contributed the most to a WINNING team effort(playoffs)have multiple choice. IMO its between Mauer and Jeter because of the # they have put up at the position they play. Dye is doing what a great COF should do. Thats why hes 3rd in my book.

 

The Red Sox started to tank it prior to Ortiz's heart problems. I actually said in a previous post if the Red Sox made the playoffs then Ortiz should get the MVP., I have not only said it in this thread but I have said it in others when the topic came up.

 

So you will blame David Ortiz when the Red Sox don't make the playoffs. Thats the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

[He Hate Me]

So you will blame David Ortiz when the Red Sox don't make the playoffs. Thats the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

 

I dont see anywhere in his post that says that.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

So you will blame David Ortiz when the Red Sox don't make the playoffs. Thats the most rediculous thing I've ever heard.

Nope, I blame their s*** pitching. But you continure to try and pound away at the point that Ortiz held the team together this long and he should win it when in fact they got swept by the Yankees when he was on the team and they started to fall apart prior to that anyway. But as I said Ortiz would be the MVP if 2 things happend. 1. If Travis Hafner was never born and/or(depending on what your argument is) if the Red Sox made the playoff.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I dont see anywhere in his post that says that.

 

He said if the Red Sox make the playoffs...David Ortiz deserves the MVP....if they don't make the playoffs....he won't win it.....so basically....because David Ortiz wasn't able to coach, pitch, and hit a HR everytime at the plate....its his fault the team couldn't make it and he is not the MVP.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

He said if the Red Sox make the playoffs...David Ortiz deserves the MVP....if they don't make the playoffs....he won't win it.....so basically....because David Ortiz wasn't able to coach, pitch, and hit a HR everytime at the plate....its his fault the team couldn't make it and he is not the MVP.

Again if your going to use that argument then its Travis Hafner's award.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Nope, I blame their s*** pitching. But you continure to try and pound away at the point that Ortiz held the team together this long and he should win it when in fact they got swept by the Yankees when he was on the team and they started to fall apary prior to that anyway. But as I said Ortiz would be the MVP if 2 things happend. 1. If Travis Hafner was never born and/or(depending on what your argument is) if the Red Sox made the playoff.

 

Right...you blame the pitching like everyone else. Last I checked David Ortiz is not a pitcher. He is the most dangerous hitter in baseball with the game on the line.

 

...I'm pretty much going to end the argument because dealing with Yankee fans when it comes to a Red Sox player winning anything is hopeless. There is no way I will ever convince you and no way you will ever convince me. Last year was a much closer race for MVP and the player fighting with Ortiz had comparable stats. This year nobody is that close yet you all continue to argue about it.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Right...you blame the pitching like everyone else. Last I checked David Ortiz is not a pitcher. He is the most dangerous hitter in baseball with the game on the line.

 

...I'm pretty much going to end the argument because dealing with Yankee fans when it comes to a Red Sox player winning anything is hopeless. There is no way I will ever convince you and no way you will ever convince me. Last year was a much closer race for MVP and the player fighting with Ortiz had comparable stats. This year nobody is that close yet you all continue to argue about it.

Like I said if your going to use the best player argument then its Travis Hafner. Game set match, I dont blame you for making the case for Ortiz. Clearly you are biased but thats what fans are.

 

Hafner has a higher OPS btw.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Like I said if your going to use the best player argument then its Travis Hafner. Game set match, I dont blame you for making the case for Ortiz. Clearly you are biased but thats what fans are.

 

Does Travis Hafner have more HRs or more RBI??? Oh wait he also hits with better players in front of him. I don't blame you for making the case for Hafner. Clearly you are just a douche bag.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

Does Travis Hafner have more HRs or more RBI??? Oh wait he also hits with better players in front of him. I don't blame you for making the case for Hafner. Clearly you are just a douche bag.

Looks like I touched a nerve. Moron sports writers use stats like RBI .Those stats are a product of what lineup your in. Believe it or not but having Manny Ramierez behind you affects what pitches you see esp with runners on base. It was only recently that they started to walk him. Hafner has higher OBP, SLG, VORP = better player.

[ORS]

In vaccum, meaning free from context - or situation, Hafner is having a better year. However, when context is added, meaning what situations the production occurs in, Ortiz is far and away better.

 

VORP - context free

 

Hafner ~76

Ortiz ~60

 

WPA - Win Probability Added

 

Ortiz 6.9

Hafner 4.2

 

Ortiz has meant much more to the Sox than Hafner has to the Guardians.

 

EDIT: And, when we are talking about two guys separated by ~.040 OPS, I want the one who's doing it in more crucial situations.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

In vaccum, meaning free from context - or situation, Hafner is having a better year. However, when context is added, meaning what situations the production occurs in, Ortiz is far and away better.

 

VORP - context free

 

Hafner ~76

Ortiz ~60

 

WPA - Win Probability Added

 

Ortiz 6.9

Hafner 4.2

 

Ortiz has meant much more to the Sox than Hafner has to the Guardians.

 

EDIT: And, when we are talking about two guys separated by ~.040 OPS, I want the one who's doing it in more crucial situations.

But how much does that really matter when they are both going to miss the playoffs? Thats why I was looking at it from the "vaccum". BTW What is the formula for WPA?

[redsoxrules]

If Tek had not been injured, we would still be in this race, plain and simple.

 

how???? tek cant pitch or hit worth s***

[redsoxrules]

But how much does that really matter when they are both going to miss the playoffs? Thats why I was looking at it from the "vaccum". BTW What is the formula for WPA?

 

is the MVP associated with the playoffs?

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

is the MVP associated with the playoffs?

I was using the playoffs as a way for Ortiz to distance himself from Hafner.

[redsoxrules]

I was using the playoffs as a way for Ortiz to distance himself from Hafner.

 

dosent matter now cause with the situation in hand ortiz isnt gonna win , however if not for his condition he would have had over 55HR and 150 RBI's wich he would have won it no matter what playoffs or not , without ortiz in the lineup the whole year the redsox are at least 10 games under 500 right now

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

dosent matter now cause with the situation in hand ortiz isnt gonna win , however if not for his condition he would have had over 55HR and 150 RBI's wich he would have won it no matter what playoffs or not , without ortiz in the lineup the whole year the redsox are at least 10 games under 500 right now

But cant I make the same argument for Hafner? Without Hafner maybe the Guardians are challenging the Mets for the worst record ever. I dont have those metrics in front of me so I'm not 100% sure. ORS provided WPA which shows that Ortiz has been more valuable then Hafner.

[Sara]

Isn't it a moot point if Papi doesn't play again this year? As much as I think Papi got robbed last year, a player who misses one sixth of the season (especially the last sixth of the season) isn't going to get the MVP, playoffs or not.

 

As much as I hate to say it, all the media seems to be talking about Jeter winning the MVP. It's going to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[ORS]

But how much does that really matter when they are both going to miss the playoffs? Thats why I was looking at it from the "vaccum". BTW What is the formula for WPA?

WPA: fangraphs.com

 

Situation WP Generator: walkoffbalk.com

 

Calculating WPA for any event is easy. Use the Win Probability Generator at walkoffbalk.com to find the probability of the team winning based on situation before the player's AB. Then, adjust the situation to reflect the result of what happen in his AB, and take the difference. It's easier to just look it up at fangraphs because you'd have to go through every PA to calculate it.

 

What does missing the playoffs have to do with anything? The last time I checked, neither of those guys pitch, and that's the reason neither of their teams are going to the postseason. The award is Most Valuable Player. Context can make the same event have different values in terms of the likelihood of winning a game. Seems pretty apparent to me that it's justified to be included in the conversation.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

WPA: fangraphs.com

 

Situation WP Generator: walkoffbalk.com

 

Calculating WPA for any event is easy. Use the Win Probability Generator at walkoffbalk.com to find the probability of the team winning based on situation before the player's AB. Then, adjust the situation to reflect the result of what happen in his AB, and take the difference. It's easier to just look it up at fangraphs because you'd have to go through every PA to calculate it.

 

What does missing the playoffs have to do with anything? The last time I checked, neither of those guys pitch, and that's the reason neither of their teams are going to the postseason. The award is Most Valuable Player. Context can make the same event have different values in terms of the likelihood of winning a game. Seems pretty apparent to me that it's justified to be included in the conversation.

Your right your right, I only used the playoff argument as a way for Ortiz to maybe distinguish himself from Hafner.

 

What your take on win shares? If I were to use win shares Manny would have (I guess) made slightly more contributions to a winning cause as opposed to Ortiz. (Ortiz would also be behind Mauer, Jeter and Hafner).

[ORS]

Your right your right, I only used the playoff argument as a way for Ortiz to maybe distinguish himself from Hafner.

 

What your take on win shares? If I were to use win shares Manny would have (I guess) made slightly more contributions to a winning cause as opposed to Ortiz. (Ortiz would also be behind Mauer, Jeter and Hafner).

I like Win Shares, although, from what I've read, the defensive component is pretty much a sham. It's another good context-free stat.

 

I don't like Clutch at THT. It allows for a walkoff solo HR to negatively impact your clutch score. I think the best context based stat is WPA, although it is far from perfect.

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

I like Win Shares, although, from what I've read, the defensive component is pretty much a sham. It's another good context-free stat.

 

I don't like Clutch at THT. It allows for a walkoff solo HR to negatively impact your clutch score. I think the best context based stat is WPA, although it is far from perfect.

True, alot of these stats arent perfect even OPS isnt THAT perfect. I wasnt really all cought up that well on WPA. Its intresting reading some of the info on that site. But does WPA take into account the strength of the lineup the hitter hits in? I dont have to look at the stats to know Victor Martinez cant sniff Manny. I do think that in these clutch situation Manny does have an affect on the way the pitcher attacks Ortiz.

[redsoxrules]

also dont count out manny for MVP

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

also dont count out manny for MVP

I think you could make a very strong case for him also. I know he is very valuable to Ortiz.

[redsoxrules]

I think you could make a very strong case for him also. I know he is very valuable to Ortiz.

 

people focus alot on ortiz and tend to forget manny but look at some of manny's stats compared to ortiz,

 

OBP SLG AVG OPS

 

ortiz 400 633 287 1033

 

manny 447 628 326 1077

 

edit not to mentioned manny has actually been a great defensive player this year

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

people focus alot on ortiz and tend to forget manny but look at some of manny's stats compared to ortiz,

 

TB OBP SLG AVG OPS

 

ortiz 220 400 633 287 1033

 

manny 270 447 628 326 1077

For the past 10 years you can make a VERY strong case that Manny has been the best right handed hitter in baseball. Ortiz has a tendency to hit the big HR (You know the story), thus making him more popular. But Manny IMO is really what makes the Red Sox line up go.

[redsoxrules]

just looked at your sig , f***ing hilarious it dosent surprise me kapler doing that

[AlexanderTheGreat13]

When Kapler dove for that ball during the game it had me laughing pretty hard. I just had to get that GIF.