MDC in danger of heading to DL??

[ORS]

I would have preferred to keep Lowe, but as i have stated in prior posts my priority would have been Pedro. Keeping or losing Pedro should be addressed on it own merits. It bogus to tie his stats to Lowe's as a justification that the FO made the right decision about Pedro. If you want to play that game though:

2006:

 

Wells and Clement 5 wins

Pedro and Lowe 16 wins

And when you add in the contribution from their low-to-no cost replacements -- Lester, DiNardo, Pauley, Johnson, Snyder, and Gabbard -- you get 5 + 5 + 2 + 1, which is 13. However, wins are a s***** way of comparing pitchers. There's no question that Pedro and Lowe would be very valuable to this team. What remains to be seen or known is what value they will hold in 2008 -- the end of their current deals -- and that is time where the risk was associated. If question marks or concerns about a deal lie in the length of the deal, why are you so quick to villify the FO when the necessary amount of time hasn't passed to determine if they were right? I'll be the first to admit they were wrong like hell when/if Pedro is still lighting it up in '08 or if Damon is still raking in '09. But, their prediction can't be proven wrong until then.

[CrespoBlows]

I got a question, who has advocated such a thing? He or she should be flogged. What is it with you, if someone disagrees with you and the FO you feel compelled to address their arguments by misrepresenting their positions with absurdly extreme characterizations?

 

Seeing how keen you are on trading four prospects for Smoltz. I wouldn't have been shocked at all to see you advocating trading Papelbon and Hanley Ramirez for Jason Schmidt, last year.

 

You don't know these players, somehow you think they suck. Just like your stance on the Cleveland Indian offense.

 

These players will someday be good players. Pedoria's hit .300 at every level, Delcarmen shows signs of being a shutdown reliever. Hansen does too. Give these guys a shot, just like Papelbon and Lester got a shot. They won't disappoint you.

[a700hitter]

That's four players who the Red Sox envision being in their future. You said that we should trade all four of them for a two month rental. Do you see why that makes no sense? And why no GM in baseball would do that trade?

The Braves GM would be a fool not to do it.

 

I'm not misrepesenting your position. You refuse to allow any of our prospect to prove themselves. You want an all-star at every position. It's not possible.

Yes you are misrepresenting my position. Murphy is going nowhere. He's stuck behind Crisp and Ellsbury. He is prototypical trade bait. Pedroia reminds me of Mike Gallego more than Miguel Tejada, so I'd part with him. The only reason that I would offer both MDC and Hansen is because the Braves seem determined not to move Smotlz, and I think he is a difference maker. If I could keep one of them, I'd prefer to keep Hansen who is two years younger and has no history of arm woes.

I was all for signing Pedro, but for three years. I was all for signing Damon. Three years.

Players tend to decline. The Red Sox shouldn't take the risk for being on the hook $13 and $12 million dollars to watch Pedro go Greg Maddux on us, and Damon to pull a Bernie Williams.

This again is the twighlight of thier careers agument. The problem with Bernie isn't his contract. The problem was that the Yankees had no successsion plan for CF until they signed Damon. The Sox would have had Ellsbury waiting in the wings. They also would have had Papelbon ready to take the mantle from Pedro in Pedro's 2nd or 3rd year.

You want to trade two Red Sox relief prospects plus Murphy plus Pedoria. Do you know what that does? You create a massive hole at the end of that bullpen.

Don't look now, but the two kids are not doing that great yet. I stress yet. I don't expect them to be Goose gossage and Eckersley this year, so we will continue to have 2006 bullpen problems unless Foulke can return to form.

 

BTW: I will die laughing if Theo pulls off a trade and moves a couple of prospects.

[a700hitter]

You don't know these players, somehow you think they suck. Just like your stance on the Cleveland Indian offense.

Again a misrepresentation. I never think any of these guys suck. Sometimes I don't think a guy will make it, but I don't form any opinion until I see them play. Sometimes I am wrong.

 

As for the Cleveland Guardians offense, you are once again misrepresenting my position. I thought that on a particular day Unit faced a watered down Indian lineup. That's much different than an opinion that the Guardians' offense sucks.

[Cocos Disciples]

Seems we've wandered of subject.

[a700hitter]

Seems we've wandered of subject.

Just ever so slightly.

[SoxFan02]

The "Duh" was a comment on your misreading of my post. It wasn't meant to be insightful. Duh. If they couldn't get WMP for prospects they should have looked elsewhere for a 4th OF. Established starters that take the ball every 5th day and win 10+ games a few years in a row are too valuable a commodity to trade for a project like WMP. We are paying the price for it now with 2 vacant stater slots that have basically been forfeit games. The 3rd slot is being held down by a rookie, who should be in the 5th slot.

 

Arroyo only did it two years in a row and barely did it the first year. After his unbeliveable start Arroyo has come back down to earth in his last ten starts his era has raised .89 pionts and has lost his last four decisions. Arroyo is a #5 starter and now that we have WMP the Sox can trade trot and crisp for a starter better than Arroyo.

 

I am sorry that you cannot follow the math, but some teams do a better job of this than the Red Sox. How is it that the Mets have taken our Pedro and signed LoDuca, Beltran, Glavine, and DelGado, but their payroll is $19 million less than the Red Sox. Are they using smoke and mirrors?

 

The same reason the Sox can afford Manny, Ortiz, Schilling, Beckett, Lowell, and Varitek.

 

I would have preferred to keep Lowe, but as i have stated in prior posts my priority would have been Pedro. Keeping or losing Pedro should be addressed on it own merits. It bogus to tie his stats to Lowe's as a justification that the FO made the right decision about Pedro. If you want to play that game though:

2006:

 

Wells and Clement 5 wins

Pedro and Lowe 16 wins

 

2005:

 

Wells and Clement: 28 wins

Combined Salary: around 9 mil

Pedro and Lowe: 27 wins

Combined Salary: 17.5 mil

Total:

Wells and Clement: 33 wins

Combined Salary: around 22 mil

Pedro and Lowe: 43 wins

Combined Salary: 30.5 mil

8.5 mil for 10 wins is a lot considering you still have to pay Pedro and Lowe another 44.5 mil and only 9.5 mil for Wells and Clement. Difference: 35 mil:thumbdown

 

Yes, Damon and Pedro are in the twighlight of their careers. Pedro has managed to make the All Star team in his first two years with the Mets and Damon already has 13 HRs with the Yankees befores August. How many guy do we have with more that are not named manny and Ortiz?

Pedro has a 6-5 record after the All-star break in two years in NY and a ERA around 3 so him being on the all-star team is not a good way to determine an entire season. Plus he is already starting to fall apart.

We have three other players who have more than ten homers and each is making at least 3 mil less than Damon. You failed to mention that he would be fifth on the Red Sox in RBI.

 

I used the Cone and MG Wire trades for prospects in the mid to late 90's as examples that it is still doen successfully

That was almost ten years ago that is an example that it WAS still done successfully

[CrespoBlows]

The Braves GM would be a fool not to do it.

 

We'd be fools to do it.

 

Yes you are misrepresenting my position. Murphy is going nowhere. He's stuck behind Crisp and Ellsbury. He is prototypical trade bait. Pedroia reminds me of Mike Gallego more than Miguel Tejada, so I'd part with him. The only reason that I would offer both MDC and Hansen is because the Braves seem determined not to move Smotlz, and I think he is a difference maker. If I could keep one of them, I'd prefer to keep Hansen who is two years younger and has no history of arm woes.

 

Murphy can play LF, CF, or RF. That being said, if someone wants him. I'd be willing to trade him. He's a fourth outfielder.

 

Pedroia reminds you of Gallego? Why? Because he's small?

 

Gallego: .247/.326/.297/.623

Pedroia: .310/.398/.473/.871

 

He may not be Tejada, but he's certaintly not Gallego.

 

I'd part with Delcarmen and Murphy for Smoltz. The Braves wouldn't, so it's a moot point.

 

This again is the twighlight of thier careers agument. The problem with Bernie isn't his contract. The problem was that the Yankees had no successsion plan for CF until they signed Damon. The Sox would have had Ellsbury waiting in the wings. They also would have had Papelbon ready to take the mantle from Pedro in Pedro's 2nd or 3rd year.

 

That's a good point, but the Red Sox would still be on the hook for $25 million dollar for two unproductive players. I don't know, maybe Martinez becomes Roger Clemens and dominates into his late 30's. History certaintly points against it, but it's possible that Pedro could do it. Do you think it's possible that Pedro is having a good year because he is pitching in an inferior league?

 

Don't look now, but the two kids are not doing that great yet. I stress yet. I don't expect them to be Goose gossage and Eckersley this year, so we will continue to have 2006 bullpen problems unless Foulke can return to form.

BTW: I will die laughing if Theo pulls off a trade and moves a couple of prospects.

 

No one expects them to do that. Expecting them to be solid arms in the bullpen is a fair expectation.

 

Laugh all you want. It won't be close to kind of deal you envisioned.

[SoxFan02]

Holy Crap when i started writing there was only 2 pages

[CrespoBlows]

As for the Cleveland Guardians offense, you are once again misrepresenting my position. I thought that on a particular day Unit faced a watered down Indian lineup. That's much different than an opinion that the Guardians' offense sucks.

 

Dead wrong.

 

You said, "Jason Michaels batting #2, and Eduardo Perez #5, what a powerhouse lineup :thumbdown:"

 

I didn't misrepresent your position. You were wrong.

[a700hitter]

Arroyo only did it two years in a row and barely did it the first year. After his unbeliveable start Arroyo has come back down to earth in his last ten starts his era has raised .89 pionts and has lost his last four decisions. Arroyo is a #5 starter and now that we have WMP the Sox can trade trot and crisp for a starter better than Arroyo.

...and he is doing it for a 3rd straight year. He also made the All Star team

Wells and Clement: 28 wins

Combined Salary: around 9 mil

Pedro and Lowe: 27 wins

Combined Salary: 17.5 mil

Total:

Wells and Clement: 33 wins

Combined Salary: around 22 mil

Pedro and Lowe: 43 wins

Combined Salary: 30.5 mil

8.5 mil for 10 wins is a lot considering you still have to pay Pedro and Lowe another 44.5 mil and only 9.5 mil for Wells and Clement. Difference: 35 mil:thumbdown

Thanks for all the research, but what is your point? Are Lowe and Pedro an inseparable dance team. For the last time, Pedro should have been a priority. Let's judge him on his own record, and not water it down with someone else's stats.

Pedro has a 6-5 record after the All-star break in two years in NY and a ERA around 3 so him being on the all-star team is not a good way to determine an entire season. Plus he is already starting to fall apart.

Two All Star teams and we are still hearing the twilight of his career justification.

We have three other players who have more than ten homers and each is making at least 3 mil less than Damon. You failed to mention that he would be fifth on the Red Sox in RBI.

You answered your own question, not mine. I asked how many Red Sox other than Manny and Ortiz have more homers than Damon. Where did I ask about 10 or more Homers. That's okay. If you don't like the answer to a question answer a different question. What is your point about RBI's. Damon is a leadoff hitter who gets paid to score runs not drive them in.

That was almost ten years ago that is an example that it WAS still done successfully

You can't evaluate a trade for prospects for at least 5 years. It's not a fair perspective to judge it earlier. For example, Boddicker for Schilling looked pretty good for the first 3 or 4 years, but it doesn't look quite as lopsided now. I am sure we will soon be able to add the Abreu trade to the list.

[a700hitter]

Dead wrong.

 

You said, "Jason Michaels batting #2, and Eduardo Perez #5, what a powerhouse lineup :thumbdown:"

 

I didn't misrepresent your position. You were wrong.

Thank you for making my point. I didn't like that day's particuilar lineup, and I believe I said that if they continued to bat Michaels #2 and Perez #5 that they would not finish second in runs scored. I still don't like that lineup. BTW when was the last time that Cleveland fielded that lineup? Maybe I was right.

 

A hint: In a debate, the best thing to do is make your strongest and best argument and support your argument with facts. Losing debaters and dirty politicians resort to misrepresenting other people's positions and insisting that they know what the speaker (poster) meant. Any team with Hafner, Perhalta, Sizemore, Belliard and Victor Martinez is not weak, and Eduardo Perez should not be cracking the top 5 on that team. That would water down the lineup.

[CrespoBlows]

A hint: In a debate, the best thing to do is make your strongest and best argument and support your argument with facts. Losing debaters and dirty politicians resort to misrepresenting other people's positions and insisting that they know what the speaker (poster) meant. Any team with Hafner, Perhalta, Sizemore, Belliard and Victor Martinez is not weak, and Eduardo Perez should not be cracking the top 5 on that team. That would water down the lineup.

 

If you can't see the value of Perez against LH pitchers. I can't help you.

 

It's annoying that you keep saying "You keep misunderstanding my argument."

 

I'm not, you just refuse to accept there's another side.

[a700hitter]

If you can't see the value of Perez against LH pitchers. I can't help you.

 

It's annoying that you keep saying "You keep misunderstanding my argument."

 

I'm not, you just refuse to accept there's another side.

If you want to argue with me about the merits of batting Perez 5th in the Guardians lineup, I am fine with that, because i thought that was a watering down of their lineup. However, you take that as me saying the Guardians offense sucks. That's a mischaracterization and a misrepresentation. You are not grasping the distinction. If you don't like me saying that you are misrepresenting my positions, then stop misrepresenting my positions. Don't tell me what you think I am saying, and argue with me when I tell you that is not my position. I think I am in a better position to know what I am thinking.

[CrespoBlows]

If you want to argue with me about the merits of batting Perez 5th in the Guardians lineup, I am fine with that, because i thought that was a watering down of their lineup. However, you take that as me saying the Guardians offense sucks. That's a mischaracterization and a misrepresentation. You are not grasping the distinction. If you don't like me saying that you are misrepresenting my positions, then stop misrepresenting my positions. Don't tell me what you think I am saying, and argue with me when I tell you that is not my position. I think I am in a better position to know what I am thinking.

 

That's fine, except for one flaw.

 

You believed the Guardians watered down their lineup. In reality, that was the lineup they trotted out there in order to be second in baseball in runs scored.

 

So really, you thought the Guardians lineup sucked. OK that's not fair, you probably thought there was someone else that was better then those two players. You were just too lazy to do research to verify your claim.

[a700hitter]

That's fine, except for one flaw.

 

You believed the Guardians watered down their lineup. In reality, that was the lineup they trotted out there in order to be second in baseball in runs scored.

 

So really, you thought the Guardians lineup sucked. OK that's not fair, you probably thought there was someone else that was better then those two players. You were just too lazy to do research to verify your claim.

You came dangerously close to telling me what I was thinking, but you made a last second save with "probably." Laziness was a possibility, but the Guardians did not think so highly of him, because they shipped his ass off. I should get some credit for saying that I didn't think they should keep that lineup, because they haven't.

[CrespoBlows]

You came dangerously close to telling me what I was thinking, but you made a last second save with "probably." Laziness was a possibility, but the Guardians did not think so highly of him, because they shipped his ass off. I should get some credit for saying that I didn't think they should keep that lineup, because they haven't.

 

I'm in the twilight of my career. I used to be able to understand what people said, but I can't anymore. :dunno:

 

(The Guardians shipped off Perez, because they are 24.5 games out of 1st place, and also, because Perez was a FA. Being a low-market club, they probably couldn't afford a $3 million dollar bench player. That better be the reason. If the Guardians didn't value a guy who puts a 1.002 OPS against lefties, I guess the Mariners did.)