The Jeter Isn't Clutch Thread

[rician blast]

Rivera has been the Yankees MVP year after year for a number of years now.

[rician blast]

I guess winning four rings, being the All-Star Game MVP in 2001, the World Series MVP in 2000, the Rookie of the Year in 1996, an All-Star since 1998, and the captain of the New York Yankees just isn't good enough for good ol' ESoxPN.

 

Oh, and coming from a guy who played parts of six seasons as a reserve outfielder from 1984 to 1989, was on the bench for two World Series wins - with the Twins in 1987, and the A's in 1989, and completed his 148-game career with a .219 batting average and 3 home runs, I doubt he'd know an intangible if it hit him between the eyes.

 

Damn! It's lonely at the top.

 

Pin:

 

Its more a testament to the teams he has been a part of. We've said again and again we like Jeter, we respect him, and I wish he'd been in a Sox uni for the past 10 years...but the numbers clearly show he isn't as clutch as you are being lead to believe by the media.

[TheRivernator]

What kina definition does Wesbter's have for:

 

on base percentage?

RISP?

LOB?

 

For krist sake riv, its a fukin dictionary and has NOTHING to do with baseball? So Wesbter's definition of clutch means nothing here.

 

Again, the numbers do not lie...Jeter is a ver, very good ballplayer...one we'd like to have in Boston...but he ain't the clutch performer the ball-washing NY media portrays him to be.

 

He is perceived as a savior. He isnt a savior, but he is certainly clutch....

[TheRivernator]

Pin:

 

Its more a testament to the teams he has been a part of. We've said again and again we like Jeter, we respect him, and I wish he'd been in a Sox uni for the past 10 years...but the numbers clearly show he isn't as clutch as you are being lead to believe by the media.

 

you keep hiding behind the numbers, I have shown you what those numbers manifested. If he goes 1 for 5 with a single that just so happened to be the game winning run, he hit .200 for the game, but he had the single most important hit of that game. See where I am getting? His stats dont tell the whole story, you have to look at each individual game...

[rician blast]

you keep hiding behind the numbers, I have shown you what those numbers manifested. If he goes 1 for 5 with a single that just so happened to be the game winning run, he hit .200 for the game, but he had the single most important hit of that game. See where I am getting? His stats dont tell the whole story, you have to look at each individual game...

 

I understand your logic, but the example you give above actually goes against your own argument.

 

Why?

 

Because the numbers show that despite his solid statistics (BA, OBP, etc.) he does not often come up with that game-winning hit you refer to and his performance with RISP, late, in close games, is not great.

 

You all seem to take offense to ANY use of baseball's clutch measurements...as if it is an indictment of Jeter's overall value and worth.

 

I can't make it any more plain. He's a tremendous player, and great team-player...he is what he is, and we'd love to have had him in Boston.

 

But he hasn't proved himself to be anywhere near as "clutch" as you are lead to believe.

[Mr Crunchy]

any idea where he ranked in making the 3rd out in the 9th inning last year??

[a700hitter]

Playing at the same level in the post season as the regular season is not clutch. It just means that he doesn't choke like Barry Bonds used to choke in his Pirate days. A clutch post-season performer is someone that raises the level of his play from his regular season play. A good example is Al Weis. In 10 seasons, he was a .219 hitter with 7 career HRs. In the 1969 World Series, he hit .455 with a Homer off Dave McNally in the 7th inning to tie the final game. That's a clutch ballplayer. Billy Martin was a clutch post season performer. Jeter is not a choker, but he is not Mr. Clutch either.

[TheRivernator]

Playing at the same level in the post season as the regular season is not clutch. It just means that he doesn't choke like Barry Bonds used to choke in his Pirate days. A clutch post-season performer is someone that raises the level of his play from his regular season play. A good example is Al Weis. In 10 seasons, he was a .219 hitter with 7 career HRs. In the 1969 World Series, he hit .455 with a Homer off Dave McNally in the 7th inning to tie the final game. That's a clutch ballplayer. Billy Martin was a clutch post season performer. Jeter is not a choker, but he is not Mr. Clutch either.

 

but if you took Al Weis and had him play in 115 games in the postseason, he'd end up being that .219 hitter overall. My point is, if you get enough opps, you will revert to your career baseline. BUT, if your hits or walks or plays are the impetus for game winning rallies, or your hits are timely, then you are clutch. Look at the individual game performances that I pined through yesterday. He had one game where he was 1 for 7, but that one hit was a 3 run go ahead double against Pedro. That is my point. The stats would say that he is 1 for 7 in that game, but he got the most important hit for us. Unfortunately our pen couldnt hold it. He always seems to be the guy who gets that hit in the right spots for us. Usually when he is leading off an inning where the game is close, he'll be the guy to get on base. Our lineup takes a ton of credit too, in that they can get him home, but you cannot dispute the fact that he is one of the best postseason rally starters in the history of the game and his rally starting ability is the single most important factor for our offense being able to put up enough runs for us to win 4 WS.....

 

BTW, Mr. Crunch, he was horrible at the end of games in the regular season, but he was good in that angels series. One of the only ones for that matter...

[rician blast]

any idea where he ranked in making the 3rd out in the 9th inning last year??

 

If I recall it was....ummmm....maybe first in MLB?

[TheRivernator]

If I recall it was....ummmm....maybe first in MLB?

 

arent we talking about postseason?

[rician blast]

Look at the individual game performances that I pined through yesterday. He had one game where he was 1 for 7, but that one hit was a 3 run go ahead double against Pedro. ..

 

 

Yes, that hit would be a "clutch" hit.

 

And the stats show that he is NOT proficient at supplying that clutch hit, but is proficient at piling up impressive overall stats...just not in the context of "clutch".

[TheRivernator]

Yes, that hit would be a "clutch" hit.

 

And the stats show that he is NOT proficient at supplying that clutch hit, but is proficient at piling up impressive overall stats...just not in the context of "clutch".

 

you are hopeless...

[Mr Crunchy]

i read somewhere that he was 1-62 this century with the chance to win the game after the 8th inning...

any truth to this??

 

joe girardi was clutch

bobby grich was clutch

mark .210 belanger was clutch

bernie is clutch

ortiz is clutch

billy mueller is the definition of clutch

tony perez from the old reds team was clutch

jetsey is a damn fine ballplayer who is an asset to any team he plays for but as defined by the above players performances he doesnt do it for me

again

i'd take him in a minute(not for 19M) but there are other guys like scott broscious(Sp) who i know we cant get out when it matters...jetsey is beatable when it matters

[TheRivernator]

i read somewhere that he was 1-62 this century with the chance to win the game after the 8th inning...

any truth to this??

 

joe girardi was clutch

bobby grich was clutch

mark .210 belanger was clutch

bernie is clutch

ortiz is clutch

billy mueller is the definition of clutch

tony perez from the old reds team was clutch

jetsey is a damn fine ballplayer who is an asset to any team he plays for but as defined by the above players performances he doesnt do it for me

again

i'd take him in a minute(not for 19M) but there are other guys like scott broscious(Sp) who i know we cant get out when it matters...jetsey is beatable when it matters

 

in the regular season...

[Mr Crunchy]

1-62 is accurate mj??

.016

the defense rests

[a700hitter]

but if you took Al Weis and had him play in 115 games in the postseason, he'd end up being that .219 hitter overall. My point is, if you get enough opps, you will revert to your career baseline.

Most players do not get enough opportunities for them to revert to their career baseline. In most player's careers, there are few post-season opportunities. The ones who perform above their level are the ones that deserve to be called clutch. The ones that perform below their regular season level are chokers. Jeter is somewhere in the middle. He just not a legendary post-season performer. He has just had the most opportunities. Bernie, on the other hand is very clutche. His regular season HR/AB ratio is 1/27, but his post season ratio is 1/22. That is stepping it up to a different level.

[TheRivernator]

1-62 is accurate mj??

.016

the defense rests

 

I dont think it is accurate, but the point is, we arent talking about the regular season here....

[Mr Crunchy]

when you hit .016 for your career in the 8th and after with runners in scoring position i think its safe to disqualify you as being ""clutch""

regular season,october or march

#s dont always tell the story but .016 speaks for itself

not .116

not .216

no

0.016.....1for62.......let me get you the link

im sure one of the sox fans has it saved somewhere as a screen saver

[RedRuffing15]

Sorry If I'm missing the point becuase I don't look at the news papers much, but I don't remember much talk of Jeters game in game out Clutch performances. A hit in the bottem of the ninth for the win is clutch. Numorus hits in the bottem of the ninth for wins is being clutch. Jeters gotten clutch plays. So I'm not saying Jeters my choice for who I want up in the bottem of the ninth with bases loaded, 2 outs down by 2(which would be Hedeki)..but Jeter is who I'd want to have on first representing that winning run. It it possible other SS could have done the things hes done, of course, but Jeter puts so much heart into the game for the team, when he makes that great play, its shown off as so much more, becuase theres more under the surface of it than the play itself.

[rician blast]

you are hopeless...

 

if you are referring to the fact that it is a hopeless endeavor on your part to convince me that what you see is right and the irrefutable numbers (1-62 for example) are wrong than yes I am a lost cause.

 

So go ahead now and tell me how he steps it up in the clutch and how the numbers are just a smokescreen that somehow miss the mark.

[rician blast]

So I'm not saying Jeters my choice for who I want up in the bottem of the ninth with bases loaded, 2 outs down by 2(which would be Hedeki)..but Jeter is who I'd want to have on first representing that winning run. It it possible other SS could have done the things hes done, of course, but Jeter puts so much heart into the game for the team, when he makes that great play, its shown off as so much more, becuase theres more under the surface of it than the play itself.

 

good points....guys who genuinely CARE about there performance and their team and winning ae going to be revered...and the fans will remember their big plays much more.

 

That's why we as Sox fans say we'd be glad to have him don the Sox uniform.

[ORS]

So what explains the fact that he just seems to get on base when needed the most. If he averaged .380 OBP, why does it seem that he reaches base and subsequently scores important runs in important games in the postseason more often than not? Why does it seem that if he reaches base one time in a game, it just so happens to be in the 7th or 8th inning of a tight game and he eventually scores the game winning or game tying run? I have posted his triumphs, dispute them.....

It seems that way because you don't remember a K with the bases juiced or a GIDP in a close game as much as you remember when he does something to help the team.

 

I couldn't find the link to an article showing his late in-game batting record in the postseason, so I just went through the game logs on Retrosheet.org. He has a .307 BA and a .389 OBP after the 7th in the postseason. Right in line with his career averages. And, there are just as many times he came up small as there are that he came up big. There are just as many times he failed to start the rally as there are times that he started one. In short, he's a very good ball player, and he continues to be a good ball player in the postseason, but he doesn't elevate his game. He just doesn't choke. If that defines clutch for you, then so be it, but I'm not buying it.

 

To be honest (I didn't save the spreadsheet, so don't ask for the numbers), much of his clutch reputation has to do with his 1st postseason (1996). He was phenominal late in games that postseason, and thus the legend was born. It's hard to change minds on subsequent performances once that happens, and he has done some big things to perpetuate that myth, but he's also let the team down. Luckily for him, he was on some great teams with players that picked him up, the Yankees won, and his failures were washed away as inconsequential.

[Mr Crunchy]

Derek Jeter had another moment at Yankee Stadium. A note from Rob Tracy of the Elias Sports Bureau on the Jeter hit: It was only the second hit of Jeter's career in the eighth inning or later that drove in the tying and go-ahead runs. The other was in 1999 (including the postseason). During Jeter's tenure on the Yankees, Jorge Posada has five such hits and Scott Brosius had four. Jeter has had 56 chances to drive in a tying and go-ahead run in the eighth or later.

 

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=olney_buster#20060412

 

 

Bravo Derek.

 

Bravo.

 

sorry mj

1-56 is a stellar .017 and much better than the .016 i posted earlier however it does,in fact,include the post season

 

this is the antithesis of a clutch performer and i find it incredibly awful

[rician blast]

It seems that way because you don't remember a K with the bases juiced or a GIDP in a close game as much as you remember when he does something to help the team.

 

.

ORS is right on and hits on what the article in the original post in this thread stated regarding what fans remember and what they dismiss based upon who the player is.

 

Crunch...nice.

[Dana Kiecker]

Hes a very good player who does not exceed nor underperform his regular season stats.

 

So he doesnt suck in the playoffs nor is he clutch.

 

Thats the point.

 

I dont know how many other angles people here can try to point this out to you guys.

 

Jeezus, you guys act like we are pouring sugar in your gas tank and anally raping your mother.

[empirestrikesback26]

Eh, clutch can be defined many ways. I would call out a 2 out base hit with the bases loaded clutch myself, even in the 3rd inning. I'm not wrong, it's just that others might disagree.

 

I would agree that ortez could be on the same level as jeter in clutchness, butr he just hasn't been in enough playoffs yet.

[CrespoBlows]

Manny Ortez RULES!

[Mr Crunchy]

1-56 with men on and a chance to tie after the 8th inning

so is he a product of the ny media??

[He Hate Me]

lol, just keep redefining stats until you get a formula that you like. In this instance ignoring things like Jeter's game winning HR off BHK in 2001 WS 10th inning. Or the game early last year when he hit a walk off HR against the Sox.

[ORS]

lol, just keep redefining stats until you get a formula that you like.

Or, you can ridicule the ones that give uncomfortable answers. You seem to be pretty familiar with that.