Crisp suffers setback

[Mr Crunchy]

we won in 04 because curt schilling stapled his ankle tendon,derek lowe remade himself into an october legend,keith foulke was unhittable and the yankees stopped hitting after pedro threw at matsui...

we won because bill mueller was able to hit rivera and ortiz made himself into every kids idol by refusing to lose..

we won in 04 because jeff suppan was the stud in st louis

a guy who wasnt even capable of making our 03 playoff roster.

 

leskanic pitched 1 1/3 innings of shut out ball in game 4 after getting his tits lit up to the tune of 3 earned runs in 1/3 of an inning the nite before...

that was his last game in a sox uniform

the entire season francona laid in the lap of a career stiff who got beaten like a dog 24 hours before.

you liked that move??

we were fukin blessed

and for that you want me to think hes a good manager??

 

even blind chickens get worms

 

as for joe torre

hes favored to win the world series every year,overwhelming favorites year in and out

he has the best available players in the market dumped on his door every year

every july they get the best player available at the trade deadline

their payroll is 100M more than their closest competition

 

has anyone UNDERACHIEVED more than joe torre?

[seabeachfred]

Crunchman, I take it you were directing your well versed rant at someone else because if you were directing it at me you were preaching to the choir and wasting a lot of words. Who in their right minds could argue with what you said? I have never liked Francona as a manager; he is a strategic mistake waiting to happen every game, and what I'm afraid of is that he used every bit of luck any manager is alloted in a lifetime during the 2004 Playoffs when amazingly he actually outmanaged Scioscia, Torre and LaRussa. He certainly didn't do it with his ability as a field general and he continues to bob and weave and drive us all to madness. I don't want to give that 2004 World Series Title back but I'm afraid that gave the rainman an extra three or four years to allow himself to screw up one game after another and become in many ways more of a liability than an asset.

[a700hitter]

I have never liked Francona as a manager; he is a strategic mistake waiting to happen every game, and what I'm afraid of is that he used every bit of luck any manager is alloted in a lifetime during the 2004 Playoffs when amazingly he actually outmanaged Scioscia, Torre and LaRussa.

This is evidence for my long-standing argument that all major league managers are idiots. We just pay closer attention to our own idiot.

[Mr Crunchy]

no seabeach

i was refering to the guy who said leskanic pitched well in games 4-7

he never saw the ball after game 4 and the guy who thought it was a great move because it worked....

 

i guess he has a point

why argue with success right??

[GhostofMalzone]

Crunchman, I take it you were directing your well versed rant at someone else because if you were directing it at me you were preaching to the choir and wasting a lot of words. Who in their right minds could argue with what you said? I have never liked Francona as a manager; he is a strategic mistake waiting to happen every game, and what I'm afraid of is that he used every bit of luck any manager is alloted in a lifetime during the 2004 Playoffs when amazingly he actually outmanaged Scioscia, Torre and LaRussa. He certainly didn't do it with his ability as a field general and he continues to bob and weave and drive us all to madness. I don't want to give that 2004 World Series Title back but I'm afraid that gave the rainman an extra three or four years to allow himself to screw up one game after another and become in many ways more of a liability than an asset.

 

Not one living thing on this earth has or ever will have been allotted anything in the way of luck, the only luck anyone ever has is the luck they make for themselves.

I have a real hard time understanding or agreeing with people who have a bitch with Francona. This guy comes to The Red Sox and in his first year as manager he helps the team win a World Series, then in his next year he helps the team win 98 games and if he had a bullpen maybe more?

What the f*** do you people want from this guy?

Do you have nothing better to do then to nitpick his every move? To dissect every miscue that's made in every game and to hold in your memory insignificant s*** that happened two years ago. It's BASEBALL....It's a GAME, that's all it ever was and all it ever will be.....a GAME.

 

If your that unhappy with Francona then just hang around awhile, I'm sure there'll be another bandwagon you can jump on passing by shortly, and with any luck you just might find that perfect manager your seeking. I'm sure being the prognosticator that you are, you should have no problem finding the next hall of fame manager somewhere out there in the baseball cosmos. With such insight into the future, I hate to see a person of your talent and skills wasting his valuable time on a team that most certainly is going to go down the tubes do to the incompetency of it's manager. The madness Francona must cause you must be unbearable. So I ask you, Why suffer anymore with The Red Sox?

Save yourself....move on....don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

[rician blast]

as for joe torre

hes favored to win the world series every year,overwhelming favorites year in and out

he has the best available players in the market dumped on his door every year

every july they get the best player available at the trade deadline

their payroll is 100M more than their closest competition

 

has anyone UNDERACHIEVED more than joe torre?

 

 

For the record, as posted in USA Today:

 

New York Yankees $ 194,663,079

Boston Red Sox $ 120,099,824

Los Angeles Angels $ 103,472,000

Chicago White Sox $ 102,750,667

New York Mets $ 101,084,963

Los Angeles Dodgers $ 98,447,187

Chicago Cubs $ 94,424,499

Houston Astros $ 92,551,503

Atlanta Braves $ 90,156,876

San Francisco Giants $ 90,056,419

St. Louis Cardinals $ 88,891,371

 

A $75m advantage over the next highest team, who enjoys only a $17m advantage over the third highest team.

 

One thing that this doesn't capture is that once the Yanks sign the premier free agents, the rest of the teams bid up the remaining FAs...its supply and demand, and if you are not the biggest spender you're forced to overpay.

 

Torre should have WS rings on his toes by now.

[mtbykr]

Not one living thing on this earth has or ever will have been allotted anything in the way of luck, the only luck anyone ever has is the luck they make for themselves.

I have a real hard time understanding or agreeing with people who have a bitch with Francona. This guy comes to The Red Sox and in his first year as manager he helps the team win a World Series, then in his next year he helps the team win 98 games and if he had a bullpen maybe more?

What the f*** do you people want from this guy?

Do you have nothing better to do then to nitpick his every move? To dissect every miscue that's made in every game and to hold in your memory insignificant s*** that happened two years ago. It's BASEBALL....It's a GAME, that's all it ever was and all it ever will be.....a GAME.

 

If your that unhappy with Francona then just hang around awhile, I'm sure there'll be another bandwagon you can jump on passing by shortly, and with any luck you just might find that perfect manager your seeking. I'm sure being the prognosticator that you are, you should have no problem finding the next hall of fame manager somewhere out there in the baseball cosmos. With such insight into the future, I hate to see a person of your talent and skills wasting his valuable time on a team that most certainly is going to go down the tubes do to the incompetency of it's manager. The madness Francona must cause you must be unbearable. So I ask you, Why suffer anymore with The Red Sox?

Save yourself....move on....don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

 

Well said. No manager is ever going to please everyone. Tito may make mistakes in peoples eyes but it's hard to argue with the results that he gets overall. Sometimes i think people don't realize that he has more info to make decisions than we as fans do!

[jsinger121]

Coco Crisp today got 6 plate appearances in extended spring training in Florida and went 0-5 with a walk and a stolen base.

[seabeachfred]

700, I might to slightly disagree with you on that. There are some managers I would certainly take over Francona in a heartbeat------Leyland, Scioscia, Guillen, and Cox to name four. Do we have the worst manager in baseball? No! Do we have one of the worst? I believe so. Just my opinion but I have seen enough bungling from Tito to last a lifetime and the beat goes on.

[seabeachfred]

Interesting to hear wax poetic about Francona----and that is your right if you feel he is a good manager. Many of us don't happen to feel that way and we have a lot of past performances to help back us up. One in particular occurred in Wednesday's game with the Yankees. Wily Mo Pena was cleared to play by the doctors and yet Francona not only did not start him, he didn't use him twice as a pinch hitter when he had two stiffs coming to bat. In an 8-6 game perhaps Pena's use could have changed the game since there were runners on base on both occasions. If you have a good reason to call that good managing and good strategy, then tell me why. I'm no know-it-all and would like to educated by a fiery Francona fanatic. Though I disagree with your post, I have to hand it to you. It was well written and very entertaining.

[Mr Crunchy]

if francona won 98 games last year he wouldve won the division

he won 95 which is decent with the staff we had.

 

grady little got fired for taking this team 5 outs away from the world series.

he had a sucky bullpen all season and only the last month were they clicking well.

he got crucified for staying with the best pitcher ever to wear a sox uniform instead of??

i dunno,who was it

scott williamson timlin or embree??

 

i wouldve stayed with martinez myself and i bet many who called for littles head wouldve done the same

 

as far as baseball being a just a game??

HA

you should consider your audience before making a statement like that.

nitpicking is one thing

calling the guy out for making bonehead moves in the middle of the pennant series is something quite different

[Sox Fan on Cape]

If I may add my 2 cents. I've followed baseball for quite a while, as have many of you. As we we all know, everyone loves a winner this was true in 2004 and everyone hates a loser ala 2003. Fans are prone to 2nd guess every move a manager makes, especially if it doesn't turn out right, or agree with the fan's choice. Basically the manager is screwed regardless of what he does :

.. Pull a pitcher to soon, put in a reliever that fails, he's an *******, leave a pitcher in too long and he gives it up, he' an *******.

...Pitch hit and he fails, he's an *******. Don't pitch hit and he fails, he's an *******.

...Don't start the "correct" line-up, he's an *******.

...The list goes on and on.

 

Tito has no ( or little ) control as to what player moves occur. That's up to Theo and the management. Tito is in a position of low to middle management. His only control is to set a line-up and make substitutions. All player moves, draft, trades, free agents, contracts, options, call-ups,injuries etc. are not in hands.

 

When he makes a change, what is it based on, purely stats ? If so, maybe he has better ones' then we do. On the other hand, maybe he has inside information about the player's condition ( that we don't have ), that he factors in. I'll make an analogy, he's a manager that's given a staff ( that he didn't hire ), and it's his job to manage and motivate them to accomplish a task or goal. In this case, the play-offs, AL Championship, and World Series. So lets see:

 

2004..... World Series Champs

2005..... Play-Offs with a team decimated by injuries.

2006..... Team is in first place.

[mtbykr]

I understand all the nitpicking with tito. I was right where wondering why he let Mohr finish the game off for us. However I guess i am just a results based person, I can get upset and question everymove tito makes---but at the end of the day he gets the results. Since he's gotten here we won it all in a way that we won't ever forget--then last year we made the playoffs despite not having our ace or closer (amoung other things). And as i mentioned before, he has more info than we do------so why it may look stupid to us, it may make complete sense if we have all the info!

[Mr Crunchy]

Pull a pitcher to soon, put in a reliever that fails, he's an *******, leave a pitcher in too long and he gives it up, he' an *******.

...Pitch hit and he fails, he's an *******. Don't pitch hit and he fails, he's an *******.

...Don't start the "correct" line-up, he's an *******.

...The list goes on and on.

 

excellent point

so the consensus is hes an ******* right??

 

kidding here

he seems like a nice guy

[Mr Crunchy]

the only luck anyone ever has is the luck they make for themselves

 

i had to think about this for a moment

are you familiar with mookie wilsons cult status in nyc?

if so,can you explain how in gods green earth he made that luck for himself??

 

how about bob kraft circa 2001?

hes 0-2 after losing to the jets and cinci

his franchise qb is bleeding to death on the field courtesy of mo lewis and in comes a 6th round draft pick who was passed over 178 times before we grabbed him??

im sure krafty new that he'd be the best quarterback in football but elected to wait till the 6th round to pick him...

 

ive heard this analogy before

luck=preparation and oppurtunity

 

but if theres no oppurtunity theres no luck

 

in other words if bledsoe stays healthy tom brady is on the bench....still

if buckner fields the ball we go into the 11th tied and mookie is another ny stiff

[SuperManny]

I remember hearing that Bellicheck thought Brady was better than Bledsoe and wanted to play him but couldn't make the move because Bledsoe was the starter with the big contract. They might have moved Bledsoe in the next offseason anyways - Brady had at that point been considered the hardest worker on the team and thus given the premier parking spot (reward given to hardest worker on the team every year) at the facility even though he was just a backup.

 

About Tito - he's the best manager the Sox have had in a while and I complain about a decent amount of moves he makes but thats what you get in Boston. I wanted WMP to pinch hit the other night but he still might have been hurting and based on his AB's since he came back he doesn't look like he's crushing the ball yet.

 

Back on topic about Crisp (this is his thread and all) I can't wait to get him back. He's played all of about 5 games this season so it will be good to get him back and give Manny a day off (only starter not to sit a game).

[Sox Fan on Cape]

the only luck anyone ever has is the luck they make for themselves

 

i had to think about this for a moment

are you familiar with mookie wilsons cult status in nyc?

if so,can you explain how in gods green earth he made that luck for himself??

 

how about bob kraft circa 2001?

hes 0-2 after losing to the jets and cinci

his franchise qb is bleeding to death on the field courtesy of mo lewis and in comes a 6th round draft pick who was passed over 178 times before we grabbed him??

im sure krafty new that he'd be the best quarterback in football but elected to wait till the 6th round to pick him...

 

ive heard this analogy before

luck=preparation and oppurtunity

 

but if theres no oppurtunity theres no luck

 

in other words if bledsoe stays healthy tom brady is on the bench....still

if buckner fields the ball we go into the 11th tied and mookie is another ny stiff

It would be nice if you quoted who you are are responding to. It's not to hard push the quote button. Usually you have something contributory to sy.

[Mr Crunchy]

is that what the quote button is for??

im not that bright when it comes to these things

[jsinger121]

Coco was 2-5 with a homerun today in an extended spring training and also played well in the field.

[GhostofMalzone]

the only luck anyone ever has is the luck they make for themselves

 

i had to think about this for a moment

are you familiar with mookie wilsons cult status in nyc?

if so,can you explain how in gods green earth he made that luck for himself??

 

how about bob kraft circa 2001?

hes 0-2 after losing to the jets and cinci

his franchise qb is bleeding to death on the field courtesy of mo lewis and in comes a 6th round draft pick who was passed over 178 times before we grabbed him??

im sure krafty new that he'd be the best quarterback in football but elected to wait till the 6th round to pick him...

 

ive heard this analogy before

luck=preparation and oppurtunity

 

but if theres no oppurtunity theres no luck

 

in other words if bledsoe stays healthy tom brady is on the bench....still

if buckner fields the ball we go into the 11th tied and mookie is another ny stiff

 

The belief in luck is nothing more then superstition, baseball is a game that has always been chuck full of superstition, "a pitcher wins 11 successive games because he hasn't washed his jock in two months", "a hitters on a hot streak because his right shoe has a double knot in the lace", why do players never step on the baseline when going from or back to the dugout? Do you believe Rally-Caps really work? It's superstition! The pitchers winning because, his mechanics are right. The hitters on a hot streak because, he's seeing the ball better. Some people attribute success (at a certain moment in time or in general) to something beyond their own ability, some call it, Luck, Divine Intervention, what have you. If Papi's facing a pitcher he's 2 for 25 against and that pitcher throws a pitch right into Papi's kitchen and he cranks it out of the park, was Papi lucky he hit that pitch? or was it skill? was the pitcher unlucky on that pitch? or was it a mistake? Papi made his own luck, he took advantage of the pitchers mistake. If Papi swings late on that same pitch and misses it, was Papi unlucky? or did he make a mistake? was the pitcher lucky on that pitch? or was it just a good pitch? The pitcher made his own luck.

 

"If "good" and "bad" events occur at random to everyone, believers in good luck will experience a net gain in their fortunes, and vice versa for believers in bad luck. This is clearly likely to be self-reinforcing. Thus, although untrue, a belief in good luck may actually be an adaptive (meme)." (Jean Paul Sartre)

 

I was not aware that Mooki Wilson had any kind of cult status anywhere on this planet let alone NYC.

[seabeachfred]

Crunchy, in other words I should be ready to throw in the towel to tonight's game because it seems to me the opportunities are almost nil. Kazmir has owned us lock stock and barrel and Wells hasn't pitched since the third home game which I attended and before that his only spring training game which I attended. Seven runs in the ST game to Tampa Bay, and a rout by the Jays on April 13. Is there any reason to believe that can get some good luck out of that scenario?

[Mr Crunchy]

mookie doesnt have to buy a drink in nyc because he got lucky

that was my very simple point i guess

 

sea-

tonites game wasnt going to be easy but it has nothing to do with superstition or karma or mojo but rather the #s of the starting pitchers.

that being said

our sox lineup has the best 1-2-3-4 in the game and at any given chance theyre very very capable of big innings as evidenced by ortiz's near grand slam

theyre always in the hunt come game time for above reasons

[seabeachfred]

Crunch, you da man, you da man. Sorry to say you had the confidence and had it pegged for tonight and I just about wrote it off. That's baseball, though, and I should have known better. I did say on another board that we have some new players this year who should not be intimidated by Kazmir, and Lowell sure took him to the woodshed while Pena, Loretta and Youk all got hits. It happened the way you called it, and whether is was dumb luck or good karma or good vibes, or what, you called it. I salute you. Have the same vibes the next series with the Yankees, ok? Have a great weekend my friend.

[seabeachfred]

Crunch, you da man, you da man. Sorry to say you had the confidence and had it pegged for tonight and I just about wrote it off. That's baseball, though, and I should have known better. I did say on another board that we have some new players this year who should not be intimidated by Kazmir, and Lowell sure took him to the woodshed while Pena, Loretta and Youk all got hits. It happened the way you called it, and whether is was dumb luck or good karma or good vibes, or what, you called it. I salute you. Have the same vibes the next series with the Yankees, ok? Have a great weekend my friend.

[seabeachfred]

Crunch, you da man, you da man. Sorry to say you had the confidence and had it pegged for tonight and I just about wrote it off. That's baseball, though, and I should have known better. I did say on another board that we have some new players this year who should not be intimidated by Kazmir, and Lowell sure took him to the woodshed while Pena, Loretta and Youk all got hits. It happened the way you called it, and whether is was dumb luck or good karma or good vibes, or what, you called it. I salute you. Have the same vibes the next series with the Yankees, ok? Have a great weekend my friend.

[seabeachfred]

Crunch, you da man, you da man. Sorry to say you had the confidence and had it pegged for tonight and I just about wrote it off. That's baseball, though, and I should have known better. I did say on another board that we have some new players this year who should not be intimidated by Kazmir, and Lowell sure took him to the woodshed while Pena, Loretta and Youk all got hits. It happened the way you called it, and whether is was dumb luck or good karma or good vibes, or what, you called it. I salute you. Have the same vibes the next series with the Yankees, ok? Have a great weekend my friend.

[GhostofMalzone]

Interesting to hear wax poetic about Francona----and that is your right if you feel he is a good manager. Many of us don't happen to feel that way and we have a lot of past performances to help back us up. One in particular occurred in Wednesday's game with the Yankees. Wily Mo Pena was cleared to play by the doctors and yet Francona not only did not start him, he didn't use him twice as a pinch hitter when he had two stiffs coming to bat. In an 8-6 game perhaps Pena's use could have changed the game since there were runners on base on both occasions. If you have a good reason to call that good managing and good strategy, then tell me why. I'm no know-it-all and would like to educated by a fiery Francona fanatic. Though I disagree with your post, I have to hand it to you. It was well written and very entertaining.

 

I assume I'm the "firey Francona fanatic" your referring to?

In 1956 I started following the Red Sox religiously from then tell now I've seen a parade of managers pass by, Higgins, Runnels, Zimmer, Houk, Hobson, Kennedy, Williams, Little, and with all the new managers came new players and with every year came new hope. Hope that one of them could pull it all together, and most of them had great players, Williams, Malzone, Jensen, Fisk, Evans, Rice, Boggs, Greenwell, Clemens, and some managers didn't even come close, and some others came close ( Kennedy, Jimy Williams, Little,), and a few came so close you could taste it, (Dick Williams, Darrell Johnson, John McNamara) but the story ended the same way every time, The Red Sox just went home.

 

In 48 of the 50 years I've live and died with this team no manager was ever been able to get it done. "Terry Francona got it done". In my life time I've seen 18 managers try, but only one succeeded.

Yeah, he may not be the best manager in the majors, he's probably not the best manager the Red Sox ever had, but he's got something 28 other Red Sox managers don't have, a World Championship with The Boston Red Sox. But, the one thing Francona has in common with 41 other Red Sox managers dating back to 1901 is they all made mistakes, each and every one of them, Hell, I'd be willing to bet that every manager that ever managed a game at any level has made mistakes, and if your a manager in the majors with any time in, I'd say the number is in the hundreds per manager, sometimes it's your fault, sometimes it's not, but your the s*** magnet no matter who's fault it is, it comes with the territory.

I don't know what you expect from Francona? You called him a "Field General" that's a football term. I have never heard of a baseball manager referred to as a field general, Skipper..yeah

Maybe, you just flat out don't like the guy? Maybe, if he won 162 games the ALCS and the World Series you'd still think he was a bonehead? But give the devil his due....he got it done.

You should be ecstatic that Tito's going to be around for awhile. Now you'll have something to occupy your mind after the nice man in the white coat comes and takes the scissors away.

[seabeachfred]

You have followed the Red Sox for 50 years? Wow!!!! Then I will take your admonition like a good sport. I mean you have seen just about all of it in that time and I can see why you give Francona some real credit. I always use the term "field general" in baseball; one of the few who do. Hey maybe this will make you feel better and make me an ally in all of this. In '56 the year you became a Red Sox fan they sent Malzone down for the third time and some said he was ruined. Plus he was 26 years old. However, in 1957 he came up to stay at 27 (Youkalis' age) and he went 292-15-103. Believe it or not, I memorized that from years ago; it is not from some book I have with me now. Know why? Back in 1957 they had an award Italian Ballplayer of the Year and they gave it to Brooklyn's Gino Cimoli which pleased me because I was a Brooklyn fan (for the last time it turned out) Cimoli hit 293-10-57, certainly not in Malzone's class. Now as I look back at it Frank got screwed but he was Rookie of the Year in the AL, with the only problem he should have been at #B as early as 1955. Grady Hatton and Ted Lepcio were dogs.

[seabeachfred]

Crunch, you da man, you da man. Sorry to say you had the confidence and had it pegged for tonight and I just about wrote it off. That's baseball, though, and I should have known better. I did say on another board that we have some new players this year who should not be intimidated by Kazmir, and Lowell sure took him to the woodshed while Pena, Loretta and Youk all got hits. It happened the way you called it, and whether is was dumb luck or good karma or good vibes, or what, you called it. I salute you. Have the same vibes the next series with the Yankees, ok? Have a great weekend my friend.

[GhostofMalzone]

Crunchman, I take it you were directing your well versed rant at someone else because if you were directing it at me you were preaching to the choir and wasting a lot of words. Who in their right minds could argue with what you said? I have never liked Francona as a manager; he is a strategic mistake waiting to happen every game, and what I'm afraid of is that he used every bit of luck any manager is alloted in a lifetime during the 2004 Playoffs when amazingly he actually outmanaged Scioscia, Torre and LaRussa. He certainly didn't do it with his ability as a field general and he continues to bob and weave and drive us all to madness. I don't want to give that 2004 World Series Title back but I'm afraid that gave the rainman an extra three or four years to allow himself to screw up one game after another and become in many ways more of a liability than an asset.

 

"By Gordon Edes, Globe Staff | May 26, 2006

 

Do you think Terry F. is the right fit for this Billion dollar Team? what I mean is he is a players manager instead of a managers manager (ala Joe Torre, Lou Pinella, Tony La Russa) these guys are chess players and they are looked up to and there is a professional separation. They also do the little things consistently no matter who or what ego is asked to do it. Am I the select few who think he should be coaching in Single-A Port ST Lucie Mets where its warm and he doesn't have shake, pace and rock back and forth and wonder what to do. thanks Christopher J. O'Connell

 

 

 

A: Christopher, I'm not sure how many folks share your thoughts, but I'm always left to wonder what it would take to make you happy, other than maybe Joe. Terry Francona's fit for this team, in my estimation, was demonstrated in 2004 and last year's return to the playoffs merely underscored that. I think the players respect Francona, play hard for him, and he is very well prepared. And he wins. What else do you want from a manager? Believe me, every manager makes strategic decisions in the course of a game that are open to debate-that's one of the reasons why we all love the game as much as we do, because we all believe we know something about the strategy of the game, and we don't have to wait to "watch the films" to know what happened. Where we laymen and fans are so often wrong is that the manager often is equipped with an entirely different set of information at his disposal than we have when he makes a decision. He may know who's hurting, who's unfocused, who's confidence is flagging, who needs a blow, who needs the chance to prove himself when it might make more sense to hit someone else, who needs to play, what pitcher-hitter matchup might come up three innings from now. Managing the game is only a small part of being a manager; managing 25 men is the far more demanding task, and I don't know how you can conclude that Francona has done anything but an exceptional job. And guess what: In the Yankees' clubhouse, I'll bet the players would tell you Joe is a players' manager, too."