Keith Foulke out as Closer?

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Considering there is so much talk about it we should discuss as well.

 

Obviously everyone should know at this time, Keith Foulke was passed up for Jonathan Papelbon to close the game out the other night. Papelbon faced three batters, threw 11 pitches, and struck out two.

 

My thoughts....

 

Why does Keith Foulke have to be a "closer"? Considering the results last season and his short time in spring training I never thought he should have regained that title in the first place. Francona did a good job deciding right from the beginning he will not lose games just because of past performances. I think Foulke has a good chance to get his stuff back if he relaxes and goes through the motions and effort that is required of him. Even if he can't take back the closer roll in Boston I would hope he can be a guy we rely on to come in and throw some shut out innings.

 

At this point I can see this team surviving without Keith Foulke. Papelbon as the closer with Timlin the main setup man. We still haven't seen Tavarez and that goes to show you how deep the pitching is. I guess what I'm saying is in the end if Foulke can come back from this and show he can still pitch....its a bonus to the Red Sox....no longer life or death

 

By the way for those who don't like Francona....he said all the right things to the media and made one of his better coaching moves last night. He really needed to show loyalty is not always an option over results.

[ORS]

I was really impressed by the Francona decision to use Papelbon to shut the door in a 1-run game. It went totally against my impression of him as guy who always lets the vet fail miserably before using a kid. Kudos to Tito.

 

Another thing I like were his comments after the game. He said Foulke isn't necessarily out as the closer but that he just hasn't showed he's ready for that tight of a spot. This is the right move IMO. Foulke didn't pitch much in ST, and his first inning of the season wasn't awe inspiring. Tito wants to use him in progressively harder situations, working him into the closer role. Papelbon is capable of being the relief ace while Foulke works things out. If Foulke is able to get all the way back, then this is going to be a sick bullpen with Papelbon and Co. shutting down innings 6-8.

[mtbykr]

I was really impressed by the Francona decision to use Papelbon to shut the door in a 1-run game. It went totally against my impression of him as guy who always lets the vet fail miserably before using a kid. Kudos to Tito.

 

Another thing I like were his comments after the game. He said Foulke isn't necessarily out as the closer but that he just hasn't showed he's ready for that tight of a spot. This is the right move IMO. Foulke didn't pitch much in ST, and his first inning of the season wasn't awe inspiring. Tito wants to use him in progressively harder situations, working him into the closer role. Papelbon is capable of being the relief ace while Foulke works things out. If Foulke is able to get all the way back, then this is going to be a sick bullpen with Papelbon and Co. shutting down innings 6-8.

 

 

I think you got it exactly right. I never got the impression from listening to Tito that Foulke was done as a closer. He said that he's not 100% yet, and he needs to get there before he can become the reg closer again. Foulke even said in a postgame interview that he needs to get back (he feels strong, just working on polishing up his game) and when he does and can compete to earn the closer's spot back. I have a feeling that once Foulke (and we all pray he get's back) get's back then it frees up paps to do other bullpen stuff and possibly start if an injury or trade arise.

[sarasoxfan]

tito grew some balls in the off season, excellent move--particularly that he did it before foulke could f*** us. Typically they give a guy a few chances to explode, like last yea- the seven or eight games that foulke personally blew for us last year cold have been the difference.

I was gald to see they arent going to let it get to that.

 

did you see bronson hit a home run.

[schillingouttheks]

I would like to trade Foulke to a buyer for some other solid bullpen relief in return. Keep Papelbon as the closer until Hansen is ready, then work Papelbon into the rotation. If no one is willing to give us anything in return for Foulke (unlikely, considering many teams could use a closer like Foulke if he returns to form...I bet the Braves had enough of Danny Kolb last season And who knows if Reitsma will actually be a solid closer? Atlanta might be willing to take him in considering the work they could try to do with him. Atlanta is obviously known for good pitching), THEN see if he can return to form. I'm sure his confidence last night was shaken, and it definitely didn't help to watch a young gun go in and do your job for you when you're a veteran.

[MANNYHOF24]

I want Foulke to be closer, if he can get it back. He needs a chance to at least win back his job. We all know that Tito will give him every oppurtunity, to do so. I still see Papelbon as a starter this year. What are the chances that D WElls at age 44 will hold up. I would rather see 200 great innings rather than 80. This challenge could be good for Foulke, it might help him gain his swager back.

[elsrbueno]

I would like to trade Foulke to a buyer for some other solid bullpen relief in return. Keep Papelbon as the closer until Hansen is ready, then work Papelbon into the rotation. If no one is willing to give us anything in return for Foulke (unlikely, considering many teams could use a closer like Foulke if he returns to form...I bet the Braves had enough of Danny Kolb last season And who knows if Reitsma will actually be a solid closer? Atlanta might be willing to take him in considering the work they could try to do with him. Atlanta is obviously known for good pitching), THEN see if he can return to form. I'm sure his confidence last night was shaken, and it definitely didn't help to watch a young gun go in and do your job for you when you're a veteran.

 

Bullpen is so valuable that you'd imagine there would be a market for Foulke IF the Red Sox ate a portion of his salary. Keep in mind that the Red Sox paid him the most money, meaning not many other teams would give take him at present cost, especially coming off of last year and having no proof that he can be the same pitcher he was last year.

 

I support Papelbon as the temporary closer, but I don't see him as a long term option. By long term, I mean beyond 2006. If the Red Sox stay healthy, the rotation of Schilling-Wake-Beckett-Clement-Wells can hold it down but I'd rather have Papelbon stretched out a bit if he's the #6. Granted, Lenny DiNardo might be that man if they're depending on Papelbon to close games, but in a pinch, who'd you rather get 6 innings from, DiNardo or Papelbon?

 

The bottom line as far as last night's game is concerned is that the environment in Boston is not conducive to letting Foulke regain his form at the cost of losing games. If this was the Marlins or even about 25 other teams Foulke would have been in there last night. BUT, Red Sox fans are so rabid and the media is so saturated that there is no margin for error. Foulke had I think 3 appearances in Spring Training and one opening day and was not sharp. I don't think we'll see Foulke in a close game until he proves he can do it in meaningless games first.

[NoPepper]

Why does Keith Foulke have to be a "closer"?

 

I agree. At other times in his career, Foulke lost that role and moved into the bullpen. This should be another one of those times.

 

I admit that I'm not a big fan of his, as a closer, even in 2004. There is/was nothing automatic about him. To me, a closer needs to have a fastball in the 90+ range as a rule.

[RedSoxRooter]

I'd keep Foulke as the closer and use Papelbon as the backup plan - just like Tito intends to do. If they can get Foulke back to his old self then that will be one hell of a bullpen (once they dump Saenez and Riskie). I think it's entirely too early in the season to promote a guy who has exactly 1 career save as your closer.

 

Honestly, I'm more worried about the offense than the Foulke/Papelbon debate.

[The Monster is my Mom]

I'd keep Foulke as the closer and use Papelbon as the backup plan - just like Tito intends to do. If they can get Foulke back to his old self then that will be one hell of a bullpen (once they dump Saenez and Riskie). I think it's entirely too early in the season to promote a guy who has exactly 1 career save as your closer.

 

Honestly, I'm more worried about the offense than the Foulke/Papelbon debate.

 

The offense will come around, I don't think we need to worry too much about that. Man-Ram (sorry) will be on track.

[BoSox21]

I don't care who is closing games as long as we can hang onto one-run leads. I think the best thing for Foulke right now is for him to get his licks in when we have big leads.

[Whos Your Papi]

I honestly think that if we had a 2 or 3 run lead last night Foulke would have got his chance. Beckett had pitched very good and was very emotional about it, he got out of alot of jams and kept our team in the game until Trot got us the lead. You have to set a tone early in the season, and Tito set a good tone for the team last night. I loved the move, but I did not expect it.

 

The problem with this move is that if your manager does not have confidence in you, how can you have confidence in yourself? I think the Red Sox need to work Foulke back in situations like they did opening day until Tito believes he is ready. Papelbon looked great and until a starter goes down and we need him in the rotation, I think him being the closer makes the Red Sox a better team.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

Despite the fact Papelbon has 1 career save lets consider everyone needs to start somewhere. Houston Street went into last season with 0 career saves...

 

A couple others included Brian Fuentes who didn't see many save opportunities and Derrick Turnbow.....

 

Sooner or later you have to get your feet wet. Some take to the opportunity and some don't. I still feel in the end Jonathan Papelbon will be in the rotation and Craig Hansen will be the closer. However, it is possible those two could switch. The Red Sox did say they would be interested in the possibility of turning Hansen into a starter. Papelbon did close in college. Its tough to say what the future holds but at the present I like the idea of not giving away wins. We did that too often last season and because of that....we did not come in 1st place. All games count even this early in the season. The Red Sox had an opportunity to take the first series and they did it with the guys who looked the best thus far. Long season and Foulke could show something later but its been a while since I had confidence in him.

 

I agree with elsrbueno that Foulke won't see much time unless the game is out of reach. I'm not interested in him giving up games while trying to get his game in order. Excactly what Tito mentioned

[RedSoxRooter]

I honestly think that if we had a 2 or 3 run lead last night Foulke would have got his chance. Beckett had pitched very good and was very emotional about it.

 

That's actually a very good point. Tito probably would have used Foulke if the game wasn't Beckett's first start with the team - and an emotional one at that. To lose last nights game would have been much worse for Foulke in Boston than if Pap had lost it.

[ORS]

That's actually a very good point. Tito probably would have used Foulke if the game wasn't Beckett's first start with the team - and an emotional one at that. To lose last nights game would have been much worse for Foulke in Boston than if Pap had lost it.

Seconded. Foulke may seem to be on a short leash with the team, but that doesn't compare to choker chain the fans have on him.

[Cityofchampions33]

In my mind Foulke has lost the role, I mean he really eneds to prove he's back to 04 form to pry that job from Papelbon. I mean what's wrong with papelbon in the closer's role for a season? He's already stayin in the pen, why not make him useful, I mean talk about a closer who could pitch 4-5 innings if really eneded. It wouldn't make sense to fix whats not broken, so unless papy screws up or Foulke goeson a run-less streak, then I say leave as is, and let Foulke be a middle reliever.

[mtbykr]

I agree. At other times in his career, Foulke lost that role and moved into the bullpen. This should be another one of those times.

 

I admit that I'm not a big fan of his, as a closer, even in 2004. There is/was nothing automatic about him. To me, a closer needs to have a fastball in the 90+ range as a rule.

 

 

Did you even watch the 04 postseason? Foulke carried this team on his back and was lights out every time we needed him to be! I understand what you mean with your 90+ fastball---but that's not him and never has been!

[Beckett95]

ya but that was 04, 2 seasons and 2 knee surgerys ago. He was throwing a low 90s to high 80s fastball then. Now hes throwing a constant 84-86 mph fastball, with a 80-82 mph changeup. Not really what id like to see from my closer. It also seems like hes lost his control. In 04 he kept the ball down in the strike zone, which is what a pitcher like him needs to do. Now it seems like he keeps leaving pitches up in the zone. ANY major league hitter can hit an 85 mph fastball up in the zone. Hes just not the same as he used to be and probably will never be as good as he was in 04. I also dont see any fire in him like we saw last night with beckett and papelbon. Foulke just looks bored and scared out there. I think hes confidence is also shot especially after last night. Id be interested to see what we could get for him in a trade. I could see him going to the Braves sometime before the trade deadline.

[RedSoxRooter]

Just for shits and giggles, I decided to go back to Foulke's horrid 2005 and put together what his final line would have been if played the entire season based on the number of games he played in 2004.

 

The multiplier is 1.65 (or pretty close)

 

So his numbers were this:

 

2004

72 G, 83 IP, 63 H, 22 R, 20 ER, 8 HR, 15 BB, 79 K, 5 W, 3 L, 32 SV, 7 BLSV, 2.17 ERA

 

2005

71 G, 75 IP, 87 H, 50 R, 50 ER, 13HR, 30 BB, 56 K, 8 W, 8 L, 25 SV, 7 BLSV, 5.91 ERA

 

 

I don't know what's more impressive, the 50 runs in 75 innings, walking twice as many batters as '04, or that he'd have the same amount of blown saves. :dunno:

 

(I'm not really making a point here, just showing off my amazing math skills)

[yeszir]

(I'm not really making a point here, just showing off my amazing calculator skills)

Fixed your typo.

 

He would have more than doubled his ER from the year before. What happened!

[RedSoxRooter]

the math skills came in handy in rounding the numbers up and down.

[Whos Your Papi]

In my mind Foulke has lost the role, I mean he really eneds to prove he's back to 04 form to pry that job from Papelbon. I mean what's wrong with papelbon in the closer's role for a season? He's already stayin in the pen, why not make him useful, I mean talk about a closer who could pitch 4-5 innings if really eneded. It wouldn't make sense to fix whats not broken, so unless papy screws up or Foulke goeson a run-less streak, then I say leave as is, and let Foulke be a middle reliever.

As good as Papelbon was last night, I don't think you can say he has absolutely taken the job from Foulke. As bad as Foulke has been the last two years he was the guy that carried us to a world series (not to mention his salary), we have to give him atleast a few more chances to show he can get back to that form. On top of that Papelbon has only saved one game...don't judge a book by it's cover. Not saying Papelbon won't be a good closer for us, but it's only one game.

[HeadOfSoxNation]

Alright...maybe I'm the only person that ever felt this way...but I just...never really saw why Foulke was so good. Like, obviously, I love how huge he came up for the Sox in '04...but, just watching the guy, I just didn't get it. Like if you watch KRod or Mo, even Gagne, you see that these guys have electric stuff. And I know the change isn't as electric, nor is it supposed to be as electric, as Mo's cutter or anything, but, I just never felt 100% confident in Foulke and that 80 MPH Changeup. I know about the arm angles, I know about the release point, I know the idea behind the Changeup...but I just always wondered to myself "Wow...why can't teams hit this guy?!?" Well, it seems like they can now. It was a great run Keith, but I think you're done.

 

Call me crazy, but I think anyone who feels like Paps won't be this teams fulltime closer by late April has no idea what the hell they're talking about.

 

Papelbon's healthy, Papelbon's got the balls to close games, Papelbon's got awesome stuff, and, big time pressure situation experience is only going to help him grow into a more dominant starter, if that is how he's eventually used, which is I think the consensus right now.

[mtbykr]

ya but that was 04, 2 seasons and 2 knee surgerys ago. He was throwing a low 90s to high 80s fastball then. Now hes throwing a constant 84-86 mph fastball, with a 80-82 mph changeup. Not really what id like to see from my closer. It also seems like hes lost his control. In 04 he kept the ball down in the strike zone, which is what a pitcher like him needs to do. Now it seems like he keeps leaving pitches up in the zone. ANY major league hitter can hit an 85 mph fastball up in the zone. Hes just not the same as he used to be and probably will never be as good as he was in 04. I also dont see any fire in him like we saw last night with beckett and papelbon. Foulke just looks bored and scared out there. I think hes confidence is also shot especially after last night. Id be interested to see what we could get for him in a trade. I could see him going to the Braves sometime before the trade deadline.

 

 

Yes i know that, but he was referring to 04--so that's why i made the comment. I am not trying to justify what happened after that, just that he was the man when we needed him to be.

[mtbykr]

Alright...maybe I'm the only person that ever felt this way...but I just...never really saw why Foulke was so good. Like, obviously, I love how huge he came up for the Sox in '04...but, just watching the guy, I just didn't get it. Like if you watch KRod or Mo, even Gagne, you see that these guys have electric stuff. And I know the change isn't as electric, nor is it supposed to be as electric, as Mo's cutter or anything, but, I just never felt 100% confident in Foulke and that 80 MPH Changeup. I know about the arm angles, I know about the release point, I know the idea behind the Changeup...but I just always wondered to myself "Wow...why can't teams hit this guy?!?" Well, it seems like they can now. It was a great run Keith, but I think you're done.

 

Call me crazy, but I think anyone who feels like Paps won't be this teams fulltime closer by late April has no idea what the hell they're talking about.

 

Papelbon's healthy, Papelbon's got the balls to close games, Papelbon's got awesome stuff, and, big time pressure situation experience is only going to help him grow into a more dominant starter, if that is how he's eventually used, which is I think the consensus right now.

 

 

I think that is one of the reasons why people are so willing to give up on foulke so quickly. They don't remember him blowing people away or anything like that. Me personally i could care less how a guy does it--i just want to get the side out without any damage! I remember what Foulke did for us and how when he came into the game back in 04 I knew it was over. So i am willing to give him the befefit of the doubt, and let him see if he can get back to that form after so long off. If he can get back there then the sox will be gret this year---i love paps but his future is not as a closer!

[HeadOfSoxNation]

I love the idea of Paps coming into close games...I never thought I'd feel as comfortable with the ball in a rookie's (pretty much) hand but I do with him. I do hope Foulke returns to form, because I'd much rather have Papelbon in the rotation, because I think he's a blast to watch.

 

I want Foulke back, but I want him back for the same reason I was happy to see Arroyo go, it got rid of something standing in the way of Paps being in the starting rotation.

[SchillingIsTheNatural]

I remember what Foulke looked like....I have the whole 2004 playoffs set like many of you. A change that moved away from batters and a fastball with pinpoint control and movement in which nobody was able to get good wood on.

 

At this point it looks like the changeup is back for the most part. Now what he needs is to build up the arm strength and gets his legs working again. With some time he can pick up some velocity and develop more movement. All he needs to do is get that fastball back to make the change more effective then get his head in the game.

 

It is also possible he never recovers from the past season and is never the same pitcher again. Here's hoping that won't be the case.

[Ray10]

Seems that Foulke is done as closer and the way Papelbon looked when he closed out the game the other night I don't think any of the fans would mind having him shut the door during games. I think Foulke is just an extra expense at this point and the Sox should either try to trade him or release him if possible get the extra money and go out and try and sign another good arm for the pen. Honestly Foulke has just worn out his welcome.

[Goalstopper]

I think that foulke may have great stuff, but not right now. so the sox should make him pitch the middle reliever stuff and have paps pitch closer and once foulke is in good shape to pitch closers. we have two closers. and we can easily trade away one of them for some thing else we need.

[schillingouttheks]

The thing I love about Papelbon is that he could be used the same way Mo is used for the Yanks. He would have no problem getting 6 outs + the save if need be, and I don't exactly have the greatest faith in Foulke to get that done.