SS and CF

[Plumpamania]

Well I'm sure we all know that we need some help in these positions.

 

What I'm wondering is what are we going to do?

 

So far there are rumors that if Abreu goes to BAL for Tejada, that PHI is going to spin Tejada off to us for Clement, Ramirez and $$. That gives us an open slot for Papelbon and a SS solution.

 

If the Mariners obtain Corey Patterson, Arroyo for Reed might happen again.

 

Personally I think the way the Sox might go about it is to sign Alex Gonzalez (FLA) and let Adam Stern and David Murphy battle it out for CF. All we need is defense in these two slots.

[Ray10]

The Sox won't get Tejada he has said that he wants to stay in Baltimore now and I can't see the O's getting rid of their best player. While it would be nice I can't see it happening.

[pats55sox45]

u think the sox would do a manny and clement for abreu

cuz the phillies obviously would

[elsrbueno]

Well I'm sure we all know that we need some help in these positions.

 

What I'm wondering is what are we going to do?

 

So far there are rumors that if Abreu goes to BAL for Tejada, that PHI is going to spin Tejada off to us for Clement, Ramirez and $$. That gives us an open slot for Papelbon and a SS solution.

 

If the Mariners obtain Corey Patterson, Arroyo for Reed might happen again.

 

Personally I think the way the Sox might go about it is to sign Alex Gonzalez (FLA) and let Adam Stern and David Murphy battle it out for CF. All we need is defense in these two slots.

 

I think expecting the Ramirez/Tejada trades to happen is a little far-fetched at this point, just because of the logistics involved in completing two blockbuster deals like that. Remember, the Red Sox refused to pay part of Ramirez' salary when it involved getting Alex Rodriguez, I could see the money being an issue and this deal not getting done.

 

One thing the Red Sox have done is not given in to the temptation to mortgage the future for 2006. This I have to give them credit for, and they've held on to Papelbon and Lester and I believe they'll keep Marte. If they hold on to those 3 (and I sincerely hope they do) the options will be limited.

 

I have been luke-warm to the idea of Alex Gonzalez because he seems like an all-glove, no hit shortstop and he'd be asking for a pretty lucrative deal. Statistically speaking, fielding percentage is the only area where Julio Lugo would be a slight downgrade from Gonzalez defensively but would offer more consistent offense. However, I'd be raging pissed at the Red Sox if they traded Marte, Lester, or Papelbon for Lugo. That having been said, if you take a look at what's available (Alex Gonzalez or Royce Clayton via free agency and Miguel Tejada or Julio Lugo via trade) the options are very slim. Of that quartet, Royce Clayton has the highest fielding percentage but trails significantly in range factor and zone rating. Of course, it stands to reason that Clayton probably got to less balls, resulting in fewer errors. Lugo, Tejada, and Gonzalez are pretty close defensively, and probably stack up in this order: Gonzalez, Tejada, Lugo. Offensively it's no contest, Tejada is the best, followed by Lugo, Gonzalez, and Clayton. Lugo seems to make a lot of sense for Boston because he can play shortstop reasonably well, he can get on base, and he can steal bases. He would be a guy who could fill shortstop and leadoff. None of the other three have that going for them. Considering what Tejada would cost (Manny, Clement, and cash) and the unlikelyhood of such a trade (or two such trades if Philadelphia gets involved) happening, it's down in my head to Julio Lugo or Alex Gonzalez.

 

Based solely on what they bring to the table, Lugo makes more sense. He's slightly more error prone, but he fits the Red Sox needs better with his batting eye and speed. That being said, he's simply not worth the asking price.

 

Given all of the options on the table, it probably makes the most sense to sign Alex Gonzalez to something in the neighborhood of 2 years, $4 mil per season and rest assured that you've got one of the top defensive shortstops in the game and hope being in Fenway ignites his bat.

 

As far as centerfield is concerned, the Red Sox have admirably avoided giving in to Seattle's demands of Lester or Papelbon for Jeremy Reed. When it comes to Jeremy Reed you've got to ask yourself: what are you getting? Again, statistically speaking he's one of the top defensive centerfielders in the game. Certainly an upgrade defensively over Johnny Damon. The question is his bat. Seattle people don't think he'll develop power, I read somewhere that some scouts think he's the second coming of Jim Edmonds.

 

Peter Gammons said Boston's people think he'll have a higher on base percentage than Johnny Damon next season, and with Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz hitting behind you getting on base is a step in the right direction.

 

The other option out there seems to be Coco Crisp. While at the same age as Jeremy Reed has already been a significant run producer, he played most of last year in left field. He's played 188 games in center field in his career and has pretty decent defensive statistics.

 

Both of these guys would be tremendous additions IMO, so the question becomes cost at this point.

 

It seems if you listen to the rumor mill (which need to be taken with a grain of salt) that a Bronson Arroyo for Jeremy Reed trade could happen, where Coco Crisp would cost something along the lines of Andy Marte+.

 

Personally if those are the two options on the table I go with Jeremy Reed. If the Red Sox can get him for Bronson Arroyo without giving up prospects, the Red Sox can add one of the best defensive centerfielders in the game by giving up a #4 starter. If he develops into a productive offensive player-- all the better.

 

By adding Alex Gonzalez and Jeremy Reed at my assumed price tags, the Red Sox put themselves in the position of being one of the better fielding teams in the league (having upgraded third base, shortstop, and centerfield defensively) without giving up a whole lot. If Jeremy Reed plays tremendous defense and doesn't hit a lick, he at least covers the spot for the likes of David Murphy or Jacoby Ellsbury down the road.

 

The two guys who will go a long way toward determining who's starting in centerfield and shortstop are David Wells and Manny Ramirez. If you believe all the rumors, Manny Ramirez could net Miguel Tejada and Wells could net JD Drew or Jay Payton. Then you're covered at both of those positions (granted you've got a whole in left field at this point). If the Red Sox truly have resigned themselves to the fact that Manny is staying and that Wells won't bring a player of significance back, trading for Jeremy Reed and signing Alex Gonzalez make the most sense to me at this point.

[stocker323]

Plumpamania and Gertie returning on the same day. Who would of thought.

[Redguitar985]

It's starting to look like nothing's going to happen now. I'm thinking Manny will still be with the Sox and will suddenly love playing in Boston again.

[yankeessuck013]

I don't think he's got a choice

[KeepTheFaith1229]

I'm still disappointed about missing out on Glaus.

[gosox613]

I'm still disappointed about missing out on Glaus.

The list doesnt end there. The red sox have missed out on some legit options for centerfield on the FA market such as Juan Encarnacion and MAtt Lawton, both of whom had good obp, something we are looking for as we are missing a leadoff. It seems almost as if the red sox are not exploring any options. They seem to be a bit too satisfied with the notion that they might get Reed from the Mariners and as a result sit there with their heads up their asses as everyone else grabs FAs that would have been reasonable options for the Red Sox.

 

A longshot option may also be Willy Taveras who is now a member of an overcrowded Houston outfield with the signing of fellow centerfielder Preston Wilson(also not a bad option that could have been looked into). I dont see it being all too realistic, howver as he had a great rookie season last year and the Astros will probably want to hold on to him; just a thought.

[Plumpamania]

The list doesnt end there. The red sox have missed out on some legit options for centerfield on the FA market such as Juan Encarnacion and MAtt Lawton, both of whom had good obp, something we are looking for as we are missing a leadoff. It seems almost as if the red sox are not exploring any options. They seem to be a bit too satisfied with the notion that they might get Reed from the Mariners and as a result sit there with their heads up their asses as everyone else grabs FAs that would have been reasonable options for the Red Sox.

 

Encarnacion has a horrible career OB%. Lawton is old, and looked horrible last season. I'd be more satisfied saving the $$ and playing David Murphy in CF.

 

A longshot option may also be Willy Taveras who is now a member of an overcrowded Houston outfield with the signing of fellow centerfielder Preston Wilson(also not a bad option that could have been looked into). I dont see it being all too realistic, howver as he had a great rookie season last year and the Astros will probably want to hold on to him; just a thought.

 

Tavares is even worse. His OPS is horrific and he has no power.

 

 

 

And to reply to elsrbueno, that was one helluva post. Personally I think that Lugo is far fetched. Reported on rotoworld over the last couple of weeks is that TB is asking for one of our big three (Papelbon, Lester or Marte). I don't see why the would need such a good prospect for such a mediocre player.

 

Personally I think try for Reed w/o giving up one of the big three prospects if not let Murphy and Stern battle it out til a more viable option comes along (What would Payton cost?) And Gonzalez for SS or Pedroia if we really need something.

 

But we have such a surplus of SP we need to net a SS or CF for one of them.

[ORS]

Pitchers and catchers report in, what, 6 weeks? That means the third quarter of the offseason has just ended. At this point the focus should be CF. SS can be adequately handled by a combination of Cora/Pedroia/Graffanino. Let Dustin compete for the job in ST. If he's back to pre-wrist injury form, then give him the job and let Cora be the MIF bench player. If he still needs seasoning, let Cora/Graffanino man the position until Dustin looks ready. Graffanino should be kept around anyway since he's a super-sub who can play MIF and COF, meaning he could be an answer to the Trot platoon-mate situation and he could spell Manny when he needs it.

 

None of the CF options mentioned are worth a blue-chip prospect. Reed is a former BA top-100, but I wouldn't trade either of the big arms or Marte for him. If Seattle doesn't budge from a Papelbon/Lester demand, then find a CF elsewhere. Roberts for Wells works for me, if they can get SD to understand that Woody Williams won't be pitching in Fenway with the hometown jersey on. Patterson has been mentioned as someone to acquire to get Reed, but I think he would be an acceptable stopgap, and I think that is what the options are limited to at this point, stopgaps. Another alternative is to break in a prospect. Murphy, Moss, Durbin, and Stern should all get an invite to ST and be given a shot at the job.

 

EDIT: It seems Patterson is going to the O's. However, this makes Matos expendable, although Baltimore is probably thinking the FO is desperate to expect any rumor about a Matos trade to have them asking for the moon.

[Redguitar985]

I'm still disappointed about missing out on Glaus.

 

Yeah, Toronto's gonna be good next year. But first base should be set anyway. Youkilis will finally get a regular job, and J.T. Snow is a fine backup.

[jsinger121]

shortstop is not a worry as it can be handled defensively by cora and they can always move pedroia back there. i would pass on lugo with the demands of the devil rays. centerfield is the more pressing issue right now. i go out and get reed but i wouldn't give up any of our top prospects to do it.

[schillingouttheks]

Yeah, Toronto's gonna be good next year. But first base should be set anyway. Youkilis will finally get a regular job, and J.T. Snow is a fine backup.

I don't think they'll be as good as everyone thinks. A.J. Burnett is unproven. They ridiculously overstacked their corner infield positions. They gave up a great defensive glove with a solid bat in Orlando Hudson for Troy Glaus and a minor leaguer, leaving them a defensive gap straight up the middle. Their OF is alright, with Vernon Wells anchoring it, but it's not great. They overpayed for BJ Ryan, who had his first full year as a closer, who's to say he'll repeat that? Their rotation is solid, but it banks on Burnett a lot. Halladay will be back, definitely will add to their win total, Lilly is a Sox killer, but overall, it's not that deadly. If Burnett flops, they're f***ed. We shall see. I would still take the Sox from top to bottom over the Jays, assuming we actually do fill the CF and SS gaps

[gosox613]

Tavares is even worse. His OPS is horrific and he has no power.

Tavares is not bad; hes only 24 and he doesnt have great power, but if we use him as a leadoff we will not really need that. He had 34 steals last year and his OBP was .325 along with a .291 average. If he was so bad, why did he finish 2nd in ROY voting?

[Redguitar985]

I don't think they'll be as good as everyone thinks. A.J. Burnett is unproven. They ridiculously overstacked their corner infield positions. They gave up a great defensive glove with a solid bat in Orlando Hudson for Troy Glaus and a minor leaguer, leaving them a defensive gap straight up the middle. Their OF is alright, with Vernon Wells anchoring it, but it's not great. They overpayed for BJ Ryan, who had his first full year as a closer, who's to say he'll repeat that? Their rotation is solid, but it banks on Burnett a lot. Halladay will be back, definitely will add to their win total, Lilly is a Sox killer, but overall, it's not that deadly. If Burnett flops, they're f***ed. We shall see. I would still take the Sox from top to bottom over the Jays, assuming we actually do fill the CF and SS gaps

 

This is true. They did send Koskie to Milwaukee, though, so that should alleviate the corner infield problem. With Ryan, I bet all the critics will be keeping an eye on him, ready to pounce on Riccardi if he flops. You know what they should do is they should dump Eric Hinske out somewhere, like Colorado or Kansas City. I can't stand him!

[KeepTheFaith1229]

He isn't that bad. And man he has a sickkkkk drag bunt. (Taveras)

[Plumpamania]

Tavares is not bad; hes only 24 and he doesnt have great power, but if we use him as a leadoff we will not really need that. He had 34 steals last year and his OBP was .325 along with a .291 average. If he was so bad, why did he finish 2nd in ROY voting?

 

An OB% of .325 while batting .291 is remarkably similar to that of Jose Reyes, and I don't want that leading off my ball games. Loretta leading off with his .360 OB% in a DOWN year will be fine. With Loretta moving from Petco to Fenway the Sox will have a fine lead off hitter, and look for Youkilis to bat 2nd with his high OB% in front of Ramirez and Ortiz.

 

Why did he finish 2nd in ROY voting? Because the competition stunk even more :dunno:

 

Here are the names that have been tossed around:

 

Corey Patterson who is now an Oriole.

Now that Patterson is an O, Luis Matos could be available, but probably only for the price of SP, and I don't give Arroyo for Matos.

Ramirez & Clement for Abreu (move Marte to LF, Nixon to CF)

Ramirez & Clement for Tejada (Marte to LF, and prospects in CF)

Arroyo for Reed (M's want Lester or Papelbon or Marte, which I'll murder Lucchino if it happens)

 

 

Now then what has becoming increasingly interesting is Barry Zito. And this is JUST my speculation. Loaiza was signed to 3 years/$21 million for a reason. And with Haren/Blanton and Harden still not at arbitration, and Kennedy and Saarloos already under contract (group Saarloos with the others), Barry Zito going to a walk year looks very nice:

 

My proposal:

 

Beane has always had a hard on for Youkilis. Maybe a package of Wells, Youkilis, Murphy or Moss would get a deal started for Beane. I doubt that with the A's and Sox having the same supply of players and the same needs (both teams have a lot of SP and a lot of 1B/3B men, that they could pull a deal off, but that would be something to look at.

 

As well Payton's name has been thrown around to return to the Sox to play CF. As long as his defense remains solid, I would do it if it didn't cost more than an average prospect or a man I like to call David McCarty (call his ass out of retirment to trade him, he's a team player after all).

 

Roberts for Wells I could live with. However, I wonder what it would take for Giles. Giles could man CF and give amazing OB%. Kevin Towers is one of the three or four worst GM's in baseball (Jim Bowden, Omar Minaya, Jim Beattie as his competition). Wells & Clement for Giles and a prospect? I'd do it.

 

I don't know what else is available around the league as I haven't been able to find much more out. But I'd imagine talks with Texas (Arroyo & spect for Wilkerson) or (Arroyo for Nix) could be initiated. Texas has plenty of hitting and s***** pitching. The Adam Eaton trade was stupid to the last tee. Gonzalez included That was Kevin Towers' only good deal of the new century. But I'd give Texas a call. I would rather have Nix or Wilkerson at the cost of Clement or Arroyo than what Seattle is asking for Reed. Even though Reed would be my top choice.

 

SS - Alex Gonzalez for a one year contract. If not f*** the bastard and go with Cora until Pedroia is ready.

[gpd311]

It's starting to look like nothing's going to happen now. I'm thinking Manny will still be with the Sox and will suddenly love playing in Boston again.

 

For the first week or so.

[Plumpamania]

For the first week or so.

 

OOOO!!! GOOD INTELLIGENT POST!

[gosox613]

An OB% of .325 while batting .291 is remarkably similar to that of Jose Reyes, and I don't want that leading off my ball games. Loretta leading off with his .360 OB% in a DOWN year will be fine. With Loretta moving from Petco to Fenway the Sox will have a fine lead off hitter, and look for Youkilis to bat 2nd with his high OB% in front of Ramirez and Ortiz.

 

Why did he finish 2nd in ROY voting? Because the competition stunk even more :dunno:

 

Here are the names that have been tossed around:

 

Corey Patterson who is now an Oriole.

Now that Patterson is an O, Luis Matos could be available, but probably only for the price of SP, and I don't give Arroyo for Matos.

Ramirez & Clement for Abreu (move Marte to LF, Nixon to CF)

Ramirez & Clement for Tejada (Marte to LF, and prospects in CF)

Arroyo for Reed (M's want Lester or Papelbon or Marte, which I'll murder Lucchino if it happens)

 

 

Now then what has becoming increasingly interesting is Barry Zito. And this is JUST my speculation. Loaiza was signed to 3 years/$21 million for a reason. And with Haren/Blanton and Harden still not at arbitration, and Kennedy and Saarloos already under contract (group Saarloos with the others), Barry Zito going to a walk year looks very nice:

 

My proposal:

 

Beane has always had a hard on for Youkilis. Maybe a package of Wells, Youkilis, Murphy or Moss would get a deal started for Beane. I doubt that with the A's and Sox having the same supply of players and the same needs (both teams have a lot of SP and a lot of 1B/3B men, that they could pull a deal off, but that would be something to look at.

 

As well Payton's name has been thrown around to return to the Sox to play CF. As long as his defense remains solid, I would do it if it didn't cost more than an average prospect or a man I like to call David McCarty (call his ass out of retirment to trade him, he's a team player after all).

 

Roberts for Wells I could live with. However, I wonder what it would take for Giles. Giles could man CF and give amazing OB%. Kevin Towers is one of the three or four worst GM's in baseball (Jim Bowden, Omar Minaya, Jim Beattie as his competition). Wells & Clement for Giles and a prospect? I'd do it.

 

I don't know what else is available around the league as I haven't been able to find much more out. But I'd imagine talks with Texas (Arroyo & spect for Wilkerson) or (Arroyo for Nix) could be initiated. Texas has plenty of hitting and s***** pitching. The Adam Eaton trade was stupid to the last tee. Gonzalez included That was Kevin Towers' only good deal of the new century. But I'd give Texas a call. I would rather have Nix or Wilkerson at the cost of Clement or Arroyo than what Seattle is asking for Reed. Even though Reed would be my top choice.

 

SS - Alex Gonzalez for a one year contract. If not f*** the bastard and go with Cora until Pedroia is ready.

First of all, Tavraes, even if he is not our leadoff man, would make for a great defensive centerfielder. The fact is, we need one, so dont be picky like that, he can still bat at the 1 spot with loretta in the number 2 spot(where he was most of last year) with youkilis moving down to the bottom of the order; he seems to have been in the 7 or 8 spot each start he had. Tavares would be a better option for the top of the order anyways for his higher average than Youkilis in way more at bats and his 34 sb to youk's 0.

As for Payton: NO WAY why on earth would that work out, were you living under a rock last season? His relationship with the Red Sox was not pretty, and he was a bench/platoon guy, why would we want someone like that as a starter; definetly not a great option. Same goes for roberts who barely played for us as well.

Giles would never work out considering he just signed a three year deal with the padres this offseason. Why would they trade him right after signing him for three years w/ club option? Not happening.

 

And please, dont be belligerent about petty things like an "unintelligent" post. Grow up.

[gosox613]

Oh and dont say it was a crappy rookie class, Zach Duke? Jeff Francour, who had a ridiculous season, as well as Ryan Howard, filling the big shoes of Jim Thome?/

[Sox Fan on Cape]

Oh and dont say it was a crappy rookie class, Zach Duke? Jeff Francour, who had a ridiculous season, as well as Ryan Howard, filling the big shoes of Jim Thome?/

Ignore him, take a look a his posts ( go to Profile and check most recent posts, there are long gaps in between, as well as cotent ).

[Redguitar985]

As for Payton: NO WAY why on earth would that work out, were you living under a rock last season? His relationship with the Red Sox was not pretty, and he was a bench/platoon guy, why would we want someone like that as a starter; definetly not a great option. Same goes for roberts who barely played for us as well.

Giles would never work out considering he just signed a three year deal with the padres this offseason. Why would they trade him right after signing him for three years w/ club option? Not happening.

 

Payton didn't like being a backup last year, and once he became a regular in Oakland last year, he took off, so it might be a good idea to take another shot at him. But you're right about Giles. It doesn't seem to make much sense that San Diego would sign him and then trade him right after.

[Plumpamania]

First of all, Tavraes, even if he is not our leadoff man, would make for a great defensive centerfielder. The fact is, we need one, so dont be picky like that, he can still bat at the 1 spot with loretta in the number 2 spot(where he was most of last year) with youkilis moving down to the bottom of the order; he seems to have been in the 7 or 8 spot each start he had. Tavares would be a better option for the top of the order anyways for his higher average than Youkilis in way more at bats and his 34 sb to youk's 0.

 

Taveras 34 SB, 11 CS, that means he got caught 32 percent of the time he tried. Not good to give away outs. He also had a pathetic .324 OB% for a lead off hitter. Youkilis had a .364. Taveras had a .666 OPS in a HITTERS park. That = bad.

 

You talked about his defense. Which he is pretty good at. But it doesn't justify his bat. I'd bat him 9th in the order and just let him work his glove out. However I think Adam Stern, someone we don't have to give up a player for would do about the same. Higher average or higher on base. I believe ON BASE percentage means he is ON BASE more, giving him MORE opportunities to score. Oh yea, I'm right. SB is overrated too, just to let you know. Otherwise Jose Reyes should be a top 5 SS in the game, whereas he is one of the worst.

 

As for Payton: NO WAY why on earth would that work out, were you living under a rock last season? His relationship with the Red Sox was not pretty, and he was a bench/platoon guy, why would we want someone like that as a starter; definetly not a great option. Same goes for roberts who barely played for us as well.

Giles would never work out considering he just signed a three year deal with the padres this offseason. Why would they trade him right after signing him for three years w/ club option? Not happening.

 

As someone already posted, Payton was not happy with a back up roll (don't know whom he thinks he should have started in front of?). But back in a starting role his relationship will be fine and is a fine stop gap player. You said he is a bench/platoon guy. Again whom do you think he should have started in front of? Nixon, Damon or Ramirez? Roberts is a fine STOP GAP CFer. WILL COME CHEAP. They would trade him for Wells, but again if you read anything that goes along with trades lately, the Padres want to package Roberts with Woody Williams. I wouldn't do that.

 

And please, dont be belligerent about petty things like an "unintelligent" post. Grow up.

 

Me grow up? You haven't proven a thing besides crying and bitching about Payton or Roberts. What do you want? Jim Edmonds or Andruw Jones to fall in your lap?

 

Ignore him, take a look a his posts ( go to Profile and check most recent posts, there are long gaps in between, as well as cotent ).

 

Sorry for having a life. I post regularly at http://www.forums.netsports.com. Go there if you want to see "credibility" if you don't think I haven't shown things in the past.

 

Next time you guys want to talk about player evaluation, don't bring a knife to a gun fight, suckas.

[Plumpamania]

Payton didn't like being a backup last year, and once he became a regular in Oakland last year, he took off, so it might be a good idea to take another shot at him. But you're right about Giles. It doesn't seem to make much sense that San Diego would sign him and then trade him right after.

 

 

It was a thought that I said I started, and I basically said it was far fetched. But with enough SP, it could conceive them to deal him.

[ORS]

Taveras 34 SB, 11 CS, that means he got caught 32 percent of the time he tried. Not good to give away outs.

Small nitpick. You have to count the SB and the CS for total attempts. (11/34) = 32%, but (11/45) = 24%. That's borderline risky. Anything less than 75% success rate is wasteful IMO.

[Plumpamania]

Small nitpick. You have to count the SB and the CS for total attempts. (11/34) = 32%, but (11/45) = 24%. That's borderline risky. Anything less than 75% success rate is wasteful IMO.

 

You're right that is my bad. I'm at work and I rush things sometimes, not to mention I'm horrible at math and do everything by calculator.

 

Still 24% is bad. I wouldn't want that and a .324 OB% and a .666 OPS leading off for my playoff contending team.

[gosox613]

Why do u keep going back to OPS, who needs slugging in a small ball leadoff man? Plus, youk got that high OBS in wayyy fewer games, Tavares STARTED. CS aside, Tavares is clearly much much faster than Youk; a combination of speed and obs is what you want in a leadoff.

[Plumpamania]

Anyways back to the topic:

 

I don't think Taveras is the answer at all, and certaintly not for the Astros asking price.